Are Christains to support sinful governments?

[Paloma]

I believe the Bible is clear that we are not to obey governments when they sanction anything which runs contrary to God's word. (That even includes things like Trudeau's statement that he will force the wealthiest to pay more tax, when God's word is clear "The rich shall not give more and the poor shall not give less." Ex.30:15.)

For instance, John the Baptist condemned Herod for violation of Lev.18:16 in Mt.14:4. And Jesus, based upon Herod's unrighteousness, called him by the derogatory term "fox" in Luke 13:32. Our Lord and his cousin were not passive when the state broke God's law! I think also of the earliest days of the New Covenant era when believers would sooner be feed to animals than pay homage to Caesar by violating Phil. 2:9-11. I also think of the Justinian Code and the Theodosian Code whereby the later Roman rulers sought to apply the Bible to society. Not to mention Alfred the Great when he sought laws for England he gathered many Anglo-saxson laws, seeking to remove some which violated God's law, and prefixed them all with the 10 Commandments. Clearly, the Church has sought to reform society! How can a man's heart not be transformed without it also transforming the world around him?

Then I think of places in the OT where God says He is judging the unrighteous nations because they have violated His law (Lev.18:24, 27-28; Dt.8:20). In fact, all throughout the OT when God punishes nations its because they have sinned against Him!

As the Scriptures say we are God's light source to the world, so how can we be silent? God will judge societies because they reject Him and His ways! The point of the Great Commission is to disciple "nations" and teach those nations to "observe all things I have commanded"(Mt.28:19-20). Compare that with Psalm 2:10-12 where, once the Messiah has come (v6), earthly kings and judges are commanded to follow Him or "perish in the way."

This site contains good information on this subject https://lessermagistrate.com/

I also think of the Romans 13:4 passage. There the civil authorities are called "God'sminister/deacon (in the Greek)." Therefore, a civil magistrate is not Caesar's/PM's minister, nor the peoples' minister, but he is God's minister! Ultimately, he owes his allegiance to God! And it is because the civil ruler is "God's deacon" he is to punish evil in society, evil as define by God's word. Should he fail to do so he is in violation of his office and will bring judgment upon himself and society. And it is our duty, in whatever ways possible, to instruct them in these regards.

Of course, this means learning how to apply God's word to every area of life (2Cor.10:5-6) something the Church at large is lacking in today, my self included. We are not being taught how to apply the Bible in areas such as politics/state anymore. I recommend Samuel Rutherford's Lex, Rex or William Symington's Messiah the Prince (both are now public domain and may be read online and there are people reading their books on sermonaudio)

 

[Free]

What about Jesus' comment, "render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's"? (Matt 22:21, ESV) I don't think the Exodus verse is applicable anymore. As for Herod, was he not a Jew, which is why Jesus and John the Baptist judged him? I don't think either of them or any of the Apostles condemned the Romans, that I can remember anyway.

Regardless, we obey and support the government in all things except those things which clearly run contrary to Scripture. Perhaps that is what you are saying.

 

[Eugene]

I also think of the Romans 13:4 passage. There the civil authorities are called "God's minister/deacon (in the Greek)." Therefore, a civil magistrate is not Caesar's/PM's minister, nor the peoples' minister, but he is God's minister! Ultimately, he owes his allegiance to God! And it is because the civil ruler is "God's deacon" he is to punish evil in society, evil as define by God's word. Should he fail to do so he is in violation of his office and will bring judgment upon himself and society. And it is our duty, in whatever ways possible, to instruct them in these regards.

What of Pharaoh; he was God's minister (Romans 9:17).
Did Jesus have Peter pay Rome money from the fish he caught? (Mat 17:27)

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Rutherford?
Is that the Jehovah's Witness guy?

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

In politics and in business, we need to have more influence from our faith involved. I see too often the idea of separation of church and state also be an influence to seperate faith from the public arena, and only be a privite thing to practice. In my opinion our faith should shape us throughout our lives. Our growing understanding of it should change us in any area of our life's, available to all areas of life. But instead, business have to follow business rules, which to keep up with competition usually don't pay the workers a fair wage, or try some aggressive and untruthful tactics to make sales. In politics the mantra is to show you have faith (whether you do or don't actually have it) to get votes, but after that anything beyond that to influence your decisions rings the alarms for a seperate on of church and state.

But that said, what it means to follow God's teachings and Jesus's teachings doesn't follow the idea that we rebel against the government, or don't support it. In Genesis, Jacob became a high official in the Egypian government. He did this and it was a good thing, because it saved his family, and numerous other people from starvation while making Egypt rich. I'm sure there were other great things done while in office that aren't mentioned in the bible but amassed over a life in that position. The hold up though is that Egypt did not turn to God or away from it's idols. Yet still Jacob worked in the position that he did. Danial did the same in Babylon. As did Ester as the wife of a foreign king have a good influence that saved many Jews.

Where this changes is with our assumed voice in our votes. We think our vote is part of our approval or disapproval of a potential leader, or one who wishes to stay in office. But even with that I think we are suppose to support the government we are living in. In my opinion, our vote to disapprove and our actions to not go against the principles and laws in the bible, do not negate our call to still support whatever the governing powers are that are in place. If it's too far gone to do that, then I think it's time to leave the country and make a home elsewhere. At least those are my thoughts.

 

[jasonc]

I'm not all that confident outside of my county, voting makes any difference.I will write in a few come November 3rd.

 

[Jim Parker]

I'm not all that confident outside of my county, voting makes any difference.I will write in a few come November 3rd.

It appears that the Republicrats and Demicans have the same platforms: "BOHICA."

 

[turnorburn]

i saw a video once that showed a group of people entering a concentration camp after the war they went in laughing and came out crying their eyes out, I'm thinking they had no idea what their government was up to, do you think born again believers in that country supported that government?

tob

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

i saw a video once that showed a group of people entering a concentration camp after the war they went in laughing and came out crying their eyes out, I'm thinking they had no idea what their government was up to, do you think born again believers in that country supported that government?

tob

I think a lot of people fled the country for good reason before their turn in the camps would come up. No one should support that kind of tyranny, or any other kind of tyranny. But the government wasn't stopped from the inside. Those who opposed openly were killed or put in one of those camps. Sometimes the only good action is to get out of dodge. The U.S. isn't in that state of sitution in my opinion, where we need to flee the country. the other idea of open rebellion, or close to it is in my understanding not a bibically founded choice.

 

[WIP]

Let's get back on topic please.

 

[turnorburn]

i thought sinful governments was the topic, or did i word it wrong?

tob

 

[WIP]

Maybe it would be more applicable had I said, let's get back to keeping the forum rules in mind.

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

I'm not all that confident outside of my county, voting makes any difference.I will write in a few come November 3rd.

In Mathew 12:24-28, Mark 3:23-26, and Luke 11:17-20, Jesus was accused of being the prince of demons, which is why he is able to send demons out of people. Jesus replied to their thoughts that a house divided can not stand and a kingdom divided will be in ruin. Satan would not remove Satan, but if demons are being sent out it means the kingdom of Heaven is among them.

There are many spiritual applications to this, but one of them I think is a practical thing is about being divided in general. Right now the U.S. we are able to vote for representives for our population, as well as vote for a leader to be president, which is a nice thing, but that's were our voting power ends. If we really want to have a voice we need to speak up outside of just the voting booths. Get involved by writing to senators, congressman, governors and mayors. Or get involved in other ways, to support the things we support, or stand against what we stand against. Right now we still live in a population where giving a voice to your concerns is listened to, your not hunted down for being a supporter of what the government opposes or oppresses. However as a whole it seems our country has reduced our voice to the voting booths, and all the things we've sided with or didn't come out all at once, and divide the nation between republicans and democrats. This dynamic continues even when we don't vote because both houses of congress divide themselves up for the things they support and don't support. And it makes it so that nothing gets accomplished without dragging everything through the mud of trying to get something out of the bills. They don't work together.

This is the dynamic that I think is wrong. If we don't agree it seems like we can't work together, and it's tearing us apart. If we really can't support an action, or we are oppressed, or any other group is oppressed, then I think we need to speak up or leave. But if we stay we need to support the government that is our home. Doesn't mean we do anything we are against, or go against the words in the bible, but over all are not in an act to further divide up the nation.

 

[jasonc]

In Mathew 12:24-28, Mark 3:23-26, and Luke 11:17-20, Jesus was accused of being the prince of demons, which is why he is able to send demons out of people. Jesus replied to their thoughts that a house divided can not stand and a kingdom divided will be in ruin. Satan would not remove Satan, but if demons are being sent out it means the kingdom of Heaven is among them.

There are many spiritual applications to this, but one of them I think is a practical thing is about being divided in general. Right now the U.S. we are able to vote for representives for our population, as well as vote for a leader to be president, which is a nice thing, but that's were our voting power ends. If we really want to have a voice we need to speak up outside of just the voting booths. Get involved by writing to senators, congressman, governors and mayors. Or get involved in other ways, to support the things we support, or stand against what we stand against. Right now we still live in a population where giving a voice to your concerns is listened to, your not hunted down for being a supporter of what the government opposes or oppresses. However as a whole it seems our country has reduced our voice to the voting booths, and all the things we've sided with or didn't come out all at once, and divide the nation between republicans and democrats. This dynamic continues even when we don't vote because both houses of congress divide themselves up for the things they support and don't support. And it makes it so that nothing gets accomplished without dragging everything through the mud of trying to get something out of the bills. They don't work together.

This is the dynamic that I think is wrong. If we don't agree it seems like we can't work together, and it's tearing us apart. If we really can't support an action, or we are oppressed, or any other group is oppressed, then I think we need to speak up or leave. But if we stay we need to support the government that is our home. Doesn't mean we do anything we are against, or go against the words in the bible, but over all are not in an act to further divide up the nation.

I can write all day long to Marco rubio.I might get a response.my issue with him is what has he done for florida? The media here lies or omits what goes on locally on some issues.I get more news from a blogger on local politics then I do from the larger newspaper. There's also the small Internet paper the covers my county but he focuses on one issue.we have dynasties here.even by voting against them as there name is what gets them elected not their positions. The People Here Spoke For THE lagoon.THE County Told THEm Buzz Off ,But THE Cities responded.We Had LAWSUITS against one.200 Dollar Fine Fir Another Who BROKE Open GOVERNMENT laws.THE LAWSUIT Was A WASH too.Yes YOU CAN Run Outside YOUR DISCTRICT AND Win AND Hold office.THAT IS Election fraud.

 

[smaller]

Every nation and every church is constituted by people who are universally sinners. This much is certain. Gal. 3:22.

So, what are we, as believers, to make of any governments? Personally, I align myself here, the "end game" of Christ:

1 Corinthians 15:24
Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

I can write all day long to Marco rubio.I might get a response.my issue with him is what has he done for florida? The media here lies or omits what goes on locally on some issues.I get more news from a blogger on local politics then I do from the larger newspaper. There's also the small Internet paper the covers my county but he focuses on one issue.we have dynasties here.even by voting against them as there name is what gets them elected not their positions. The People Here Spoke For THE lagoon.THE County Told THEm Buzz Off ,But THE Cities responded.We Had LAWSUITS against one.200 Dollar Fine Fir Another Who BROKE Open GOVERNMENT laws.THE LAWSUIT Was A WASH too.Yes YOU CAN Run Outside YOUR DISCTRICT AND Win AND Hold office.THAT IS Election fraud.

Hebrews 13:17 (NIV)
17 Have confidence in your leaders and submit to their authority, because they keep watch over youas those who must give an account. Do this so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no benefit to you.

People aren't bound to stay in a specific location, so if they move somewhere else for what ever reason that's not breaking any laws of God or man. I'm not trying to say we should go to voter fraud, but if we feel the need to leave, we can. Otherwise I think it's more then once given by example or specifically in teachings to submit to the leaders over us. The exception of course is if they want us to go against God. But in the examples in the bible where this happens, those who disobey, do so as their actions, not as a community rising up against the leaders.

 

[jasonc]

Hebrews 13:17 (NIV)
17 Have confidence in your leaders and submit to their authority, because they keep watch over youas those who must give an account. Do this so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no benefit to you.

People aren't bound to stay in a specific location, so if they move somewhere else for what ever reason that's not breaking any laws of God or man. I'm not trying to say we should go to voter fraud, but if we feel the need to leave, we can. Otherwise I think it's more then once given by example or specifically in teachings to submit to the leaders over us. The exception of course is if they want us to go against God. But in the examples in the bible where this happens, those who disobey, do so as their actions, not as a community rising up against the leaders.

do you have the time to watch your county commission meetings,city council meetings and school board,and state and national legislative meetings?I don't
.I know of the local issues as I work for city that is under the media spotlight and is being sued by the county,another city
Our society has made a contract now is only binding when I feel that it is.that isn't new.

 

[jasonc]

In Mathew 12:24-28, Mark 3:23-26, and Luke 11:17-20, Jesus was accused of being the prince of demons, which is why he is able to send demons out of people. Jesus replied to their thoughts that a house divided can not stand and a kingdom divided will be in ruin. Satan would not remove Satan, but if demons are being sent out it means the kingdom of Heaven is among them.

There are many spiritual applications to this, but one of them I think is a practical thing is about being divided in general. Right now the U.S. we are able to vote for representives for our population, as well as vote for a leader to be president, which is a nice thing, but that's were our voting power ends. If we really want to have a voice we need to speak up outside of just the voting booths. Get involved by writing to senators, congressman, governors and mayors. Or get involved in other ways, to support the things we support, or stand against what we stand against. Right now we still live in a population where giving a voice to your concerns is listened to, your not hunted down for being a supporter of what the government opposes or oppresses. However as a whole it seems our country has reduced our voice to the voting booths, and all the things we've sided with or didn't come out all at once, and divide the nation between republicans and democrats. This dynamic continues even when we don't vote because both houses of congress divide themselves up for the things they support and don't support. And it makes it so that nothing gets accomplished without dragging everything through the mud of trying to get something out of the bills. They don't work together.

This is the dynamic that I think is wrong. If we don't agree it seems like we can't work together, and it's tearing us apart. If we really can't support an action, or we are oppressed, or any other group is oppressed, then I think we need to speak up or leave. But if we stay we need to support the government that is our home. Doesn't mean we do anything we are against, or go against the words in the bible, but over all are not in an act to further divide up the nation.

So if it was lawful to arrest Christians any murder them.flee instead of what the pacifist pastor berlinghoff did? He tried to take out Hitler amongst a few things.he was a messanger in the resistance and never took up arms.he plotted but felt it was better for him to relay messages.he was executed by Germany 90 days before the war ended.

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

do you have the time to watch your county commission meetings,city council meetings and school board,and state and national legislative meetings?I don't
.I know of the local issues as I work for city that is under the media spotlight and is being sued by the county,another city
Our society has made a contract now is only binding when I feel that it is.that isn't new.

If an issue was important enough to me to make my voice known, then yeah, I'd have to make time to do one of those or possibly other options as well. Right now I'm not sure of a way to make my voice heard to a government agency, nor do I have a cause to bring to them to try and give their attention to.

The agency issues that I'd like to do something about are about trying to build more of a community atmosphere in almost any enviornment. Hopefully that would help create a safety net against the potential factors that contribute to mass shooting, gangs, sucides, and nurmous other sad tragedies that occur. Unfortunately I don't have a good idea of how to accomplish this so I don't. Another issue is with the high prices for medicine, education, and housing. We live in a society that is unaffordable, increasingly unaffordable, and only becomes affordable by going into debt, or by buying insurance of one kind or another to help pay for it. If you want to start a family the only way to do so with medical help is to have insurance for the pregency. Otherwise it is unaffordable. Education and homes require loans and mortgages to try and pay off, which at an increasing rate of price make it that much more unaffordable for a person to find a place to live or become educated. With education, the only practical reason to go to college now a days is for a career, not for the sake of learning. Which hinders our population that says it values knowledge and education. Unfortunately, I have no idea how to help resolve these issues either.

Other people have started organizations that have grown to help one cause or another. From homelessness, child hospitals, taking care of our vets, to numerous other causes, people take their cause and work on it. Your voice doesn't have to go through a government agency, but that is also an option as well.

It's just in my opinion that if we assume that our vote is our voice then we're being led a sham of a voice. But even if whatever we do, if it's not heard, then we need to keep trucking anyways. To not support a government because it's not listening to you or because it continues in crouption and sin are not bibical lessons. Hebrews 13:17 seems to suggest to do just the opposite.

So if it was lawful to arrest Christians any murder them.flee instead of what the pacifist pastor berlinghoff did? He tried to take out Hitler amongst a few things.he was a messanger in the resistance and never took up arms.he plotted but felt it was better for him to relay messages.he was executed by Germany 90 days before the war ended.

If it was lawful to murder Christians then yeah I would flee. I would try and take as many with me as I could, whether they were Christian or not, but Expecially those that are my family, and those who are also Christians. That's a brave thing the pastor did, but I have a responsibility to the safety of my wife, my parents, and anyone else that I have the ability to protect. It was not unlawful for Abraham to travel when God called him to. Nor unlawful for the Isrealites to flee when God lead them out of Egypt. Nor for those from Syria to flee an ongoing civil war that seems to have no descernable end. Nor is it wrong in any other occurance that has happened throughout history.

 

[WIP]

Are Christains to support sinful governments?

It seems we are to be subject to those in position of authority over us.

1 Peter 2:13-14 NKJV
Therefore submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord’s sake, whether to the king as supreme, or to governors, as to those who are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and for the praise of those who do good.

Romans 13:1-7 NKJV
Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil. Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience’ sake. For because of this you also pay taxes, for they are God’s ministers attending continually to this very thing. Render therefore to all their due: taxes to whom taxes are due, customs to whom customs, fear to whom fear, honor to whom honor.

However, in all things, it would seem God’s laws trumps man’s laws…

Luke 20:25 NKJV
And He said to them, “Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s.”

Acts 5:26-32 NKJV
Then the captain went with the officers and brought them without violence, for they feared the people, lest they should be stoned. And when they had brought them, they set them before the council. And the high priest asked them, saying, “Did we not strictly command you not to teach in this name? And look, you have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine, and intend to bring this Man’s blood on us!” But Peter and the other apostles answered and said: “We ought to obey God rather than men. The God of our fathers raised up Jesus whom you murdered by hanging on a tree. Him God has exalted to His right hand to be Prince and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins. And we are His witnesses to these things, and so also is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey Him.”

Just my .