Are Christians called to be Holy and Perfect?

[Rajesh Sahu]

Since Jesus said Himself that only God is good, He must surely have put perfection before us as a goal, certainly not something that He expected since John also spoke of man sinning in 1 John 1:9. However, we are to try and to do our best.

Perhaps, as we separate ourselves from the world more and more, we can become more and more "perfect".

Welcome back dear Wondering. It's wonderful to see you back
Amen to what you wrote. Nicely explained. I believe Holy is combination of being set apart and PURITY (in thought, word and deed). This of course is an excellent goal and we Christians must do our best , knowing fully well it's not fully attainable. And that's where Christ's full grace is imputed to every believer who chose to do God's will over their own. Ones who resisted Flesh World and devil (FWD) and followed Jesus ( Luke 9:23)

 

[OzSpen]

God's grace and love and human disobedience are the central themes of the story of God's love -----BIBLE . By red lettered words I mean words of Lord Jesus Christ . So beautiful, so unique....
Message of Christ ( in one line ) ------Love all and do the Will of God over your fleshly will.

Rajesh,

I knew exactly what you meant by 'red lettered words' of Jesus. As I stated in #72. I responded in #73 that the red-lettered words of Jesus are no more inspired than the rest of Scripture.

God's emphasis is: "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work (2 Tim 3:16-17 NIV).

"All Scripture is inspired/God-breathed and Jesus' words are no more inspired than the rest of the Bible. That's the biblical teaching.

Jesus' emphasis is not just on loving all and doing the will of God. Take a read of what Jesus said will happen at the Final Judgment (Matt 25:31-46 NIV):

31 ‘When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34 ‘Then the King will say to those on his right, “Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was ill and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.”

37 ‘Then the righteous will answer him, “Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you ill or in prison and go to visit you?”

40 ‘The King will reply, “Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.”

41 ‘Then he will say to those on his left, “Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was ill and in prison and you did not look after me.”

44 ‘They also will answer, “Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or ill or in prison, and did not help you?”

45 ‘He will reply, “Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.”

46 ‘Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.’

This loving God is the God who provides discipline / punishment. He judges between the sheep and the goats, the righteous and the unrighteous. To speak of Jesus primarily as a loving person, without his statements about eternal punishment, is to present a wrong view of Jesus.

Oz

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

Rajesh,

I knew exactly what you meant by 'red lettered words' of Jesus. As I stated in #72. I responded in #73 that the red-lettered words of Jesus are no more inspired than the rest of Scripture.

God's emphasis is: "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work (2 Tim 3:16-17 NIV).

"All Scripture is inspired/God-breathed and Jesus' words are no more inspired than the rest of the Bible. That's the biblical teaching.

Jesus' emphasis is not just on loving all and doing the will of God. Take a read of what Jesus said will happen at the Final Judgment (Matt 25:31-46 NIV):



This loving God is the God who provides discipline / punishment. He judges between the sheep and the goats, the righteous and the unrighteous. To speak of Jesus primarily as a loving person, without his statements about eternal punishment, is to present a wrong view of Jesus.

This loving God is the God who provides discipline / punishment. He judges between the sheep and the goats, the righteous and the unrighteous. To speak of Jesus primarily as a loving person, without his statements about eternal punishment, is to present a wrong view of Jesus.

Oz

I complete agree with what you say here. I try to remember that every day, and follow the Lord. But I also understand what He seeks most out of me... us, as He Himself explains.

Luke 22: 37-40 & John 13:34

‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment.
And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’
All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
"A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another.
(John 13:34)

1 Corinthians 13:13 ►
And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

1 Peter 4:8
Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins.

​

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

I personally believe that Jesus summarized the entire message of the epic story of Bible in one single word ......LOVE. And its consistent with His expectation of obedience (Matthew 28;18-20)
Paul explains WHAT biblical love is. It is consistent with Christ's call for obedience
1 Corinthians 13:4-7 New International Version (NIV)
Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

 

[OzSpen]

I personally believe that Jesus summarized the entire message of the epic story of Bible in one single word ......LOVE. And its consistent with His expectation of obedience (Matthew 28;18-20)
Paul explains WHAT biblical love is. It is consistent with Christ's call for obedience
1 Corinthians 13:4-7 New International Version (NIV)
Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

Rajesh,

Please note the context of 1 Cor 13:4-7 as this is not talking about God's love for human beings. The context is in 1 Cor 13:1-3 (NIV):

If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast,[b] but do not have love, I gain nothing.

This unconditional agape (love) applies to the exercise of the gifts of the Spirit. I urge you not to interpret 1 Cor 13:4-7 outside of this context.

It is way too easy to use 1 Cor 13 as an emphasis on God's attribute of love when it is an application of God's love to the Spirit's manifestations in the congregation - when the church gathers (see 1 Cor 14:26 NIV).

Oz

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

Rajesh,

Please note the context of 1 Cor 13:4-7 as this is not talking about God's love for human beings. The context is in 1 Cor 13:1-3 (NIV):



This unconditional agape (love) applies to the exercise of the gifts of the Spirit. I urge you not to interpret 1 Cor 13:4-7 outside of this context.

It is way too easy to use 1 Cor 13 as an emphasis on God's attribute of love when it is an application of God's love to the Spirit's manifestations in the congregation - when the church gathers (see 1 Cor 14:26 NIV).

Oz

You didn't say anything on Christ's commandments of love Oz?

 

[ezra]

This unconditional agape (love) applies to the exercise of the gifts of the Spirit.

so you deny john3:16

 

[GodsGrace]

Rajesh,

Please note the context of 1 Cor 13:4-7 as this is not talking about God's love for human beings. The context is in 1 Cor 13:1-3 (NIV):



This unconditional agape (love) applies to the exercise of the gifts of the Spirit. I urge you not to interpret 1 Cor 13:4-7 outside of this context.

It is way too easy to use 1 Cor 13 as an emphasis on God's attribute of love when it is an application of God's love to the Spirit's manifestations in the congregation - when the church gathers (see 1 Cor 14:26 NIV).

Oz

Rajesh Sahu


Oz,
I believe this is a misunderstanding.
I don't think RS is saying that 1 Corinthians is talking about God's love for us, but about our love for our fellow man.
Maybe RS could comment?

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

This unconditional agape (love) applies to the exercise of the gifts of the Spirit. I urge you not to interpret 1 Cor 13:4-7 outside of this context.

This is how Mathew Henry explains 1Corinthians 13: 4-7
Some of the effects of charity are stated, that we may know whether we have this grace; and that if we have not, we may not rest till we have it. This love is a clear proof of regeneration, and is a touchstone of our professed faith in Christ. In this beautiful description of the nature and effects of love, it is meant to show the Corinthians that their conduct had, in many respects, been a contrast to it. Charity is an utter enemy to selfishness; it does not desire or seek its own praise, or honour, or profit, or pleasure. Not that charity destroys all regard to ourselves, or that the charitable man should neglect himself and all his interests. But charity never seeks its own to the hurt of others, or to neglect others. It ever prefers the welfare of others to its private advantage. How good-natured and amiable is Christian charity! How excellent would Christianity appear to the world, if those who profess it were more under this Divine principle, and paid due regard to the command on which its blessed Author laid the chief stress! Let us ask whether this Divine love dwells in our hearts. Has this principle guided us into becoming behaviour to all men? Are we willing to lay aside selfish objects and aims? Here is a call to watchfulness, diligence, and prayer.

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

Rajesh Sahu


Oz,
I believe this is a misunderstanding.
I don't think RS is saying that 1 Corinthians is talking about God's love for us, but about our love for our fellow man.
Maybe RS could comment?

Yes indeed , it's our love for fellow human beings. I didn't understand why Oz mentioned God's love for us in this context.

 

[ezra]

'All Scripture' is breathed out by God and is useful for teaching, etc. It does not state that 'all Scripture, and especially the red-lettered words of Jesus'.

your gnat straining..and coughing while trying to swallow a camel.. the red letter are reference Jesus said you must be born again its still scripture

 

[OzSpen]

You didn't say anything on Christ's commandments of love Oz?

Rajesh,

I didn't understand I had to because in #84 you raised the issues surrounding 1 Corinthians 13:4-7 New International Version (NIV). I wanted to make sure that in context 1 Cor 13:4-7 is dealing with the exercise of love when the gifts of the Spirit are manifested (vv 1-3). 1 Cor 13 is not meant to be an exposition on God's love, but on God's love demonstrated by the Corinthian church in the gatherings when the gifts were manifested.

I fully support Christ's commandment that we should love one another, but that wasn't the context in 1 Cor 13.

Oz

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

Rajesh,

I didn't understand I had to because in #84 you raised the issues surrounding 1 Corinthians 13:4-7 New International Version (NIV). I wanted to make sure that in context 1 Cor 13:4-7 is dealing with the exercise of love when the gifts of the Spirit are manifested (vv 1-3). 1 Cor 13 is not meant to be an exposition on God's love, but on God's love demonstrated by the Corinthian church in the gatherings when the gifts were manifested.

I fully support Christ's commandment that we should love one another, but that wasn't the context in 1 Cor 13.

Oz

Well I still feel Paul was explaining to us humans , especially Christians, what biblical love is all about , because it's quite different than what the World deems love to be. I'm glad the Word explains what true love is, from our point of view , that we may manifest it in our lives if we really are disciples of the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[OzSpen]

This is how Mathew Henry explains 1Corinthians 13: 4-7
Some of the effects of charity are stated, that we may know whether we have this grace; and that if we have not, we may not rest till we have it. This love is a clear proof of regeneration, and is a touchstone of our professed faith in Christ. In this beautiful description of the nature and effects of love, it is meant to show the Corinthians that their conduct had, in many respects, been a contrast to it. Charity is an utter enemy to selfishness; it does not desire or seek its own praise, or honour, or profit, or pleasure. Not that charity destroys all regard to ourselves, or that the charitable man should neglect himself and all his interests. But charity never seeks its own to the hurt of others, or to neglect others. It ever prefers the welfare of others to its private advantage. How good-natured and amiable is Christian charity! How excellent would Christianity appear to the world, if those who profess it were more under this Divine principle, and paid due regard to the command on which its blessed Author laid the chief stress! Let us ask whether this Divine love dwells in our hearts. Has this principle guided us into becoming behaviour to all men? Are we willing to lay aside selfish objects and aims? Here is a call to watchfulness, diligence, and prayer.

I agree with Matthew Henry as a general comment, but he's not dealing with the application of these verses to the context (1 Cor 13:1-3).

Matthew Henry asks: 'Let us ask whether this Divine love dwells in our hearts. Has this principle guided us into becoming behaviour to all men?'

I'm disappointed Henry has interpreted this as 'becoming behaviour to all men' when the context of this 'attractive behaviour' is the demonstration of love in exercise of the gifts. It's dealing with behaviour in the church gathering on how people minister in the gathering.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Well I still feel Paul was explaining to us humans , especially Christians, what biblical love is all about , because it's quite different than what the World deems love to be. I'm glad the Word explains what true love is, from our point of view , that we may manifest it in our lives if we really are disciples of the Lord Jesus Christ.

RS,

'I still feel Paul' is not a good way to find a meaning of a biblical text. Historical, cultural, grammatical and contextual details are needed to understand any text, whether biblical or reading posts on this forum or reading the local newspaper.

I'll leave it there.

Oz

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

RS,

'I still feel Paul' is not a good way to find a meaning of a biblical text. Historical, cultural, grammatical and contextual details are needed to understand any text, whether biblical or reading posts on this forum or reading the local newspaper.

I'll leave it there.

Oz

In simple words I do not agree with your interpretation of the verses

 

[OzSpen]

In simple words I do not agree with your interpretation of the verses

Oz

 

[JLB]

Welcome back dear Wondering. It's wonderful to see you back
Amen to what you wrote. Nicely explained. I believe Holy is combination of being set apart and PURITY (in thought, word and deed). This of course is an excellent goal and we Christians must do our best , knowing fully well it's not fully attainable. And that's where Christ's full grace is imputed to every believer who chose to do God's will over their own. Ones who resisted Flesh World and devil (FWD) and followed Jesus ( Luke 9:23)

Agreed.

If I were to define holy with one word it would be the word PURE.


JLB

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

Agreed.

If I were to define holy with one word it would be the word PURE.


JLB

Agreed.

If I were to define holy with one word it would be the word PURE.


JLB

Amen. That's what God is
(Revelation 4:8)
and that's what He wills us to be, as well..... Pure ( holy)
( 1 Peter 1:16 )

 

[OzSpen]

Agreed.

If I were to define holy with one word it would be the word PURE.

JLB

The Greek word for 'holy'. hagios, has several meanings in the NT. One of them is 'pure', as you stated.

Arndt & Gingrich's Greek lexicon gives Scriptures for these meanings of hagios:

1. 'Dedicated to God, holy, sacred' (e.g. Matt 4:5);
2. 'Pure, perfect, worthy of God' (Eph 2:21);
3. Of Christ, 'holy' (Ac 4:27, 30);
4. Of God, 'holy' (Jn 17:11);
5. 'What is holy ... sacrificial meat' (Matt 7:6; Lev 22:14 in LXX)
6. 'Sanctuary' (Heb 9:1; Num 3:38 in LXX) [Arndt & Gingrich 1957:9-10).

Oz