Are Christians called to be Holy and Perfect?

[Rajesh Sahu]

Rajesh,

I'll focus on this 'perfect' translation. The problem we have here is with the English translation of 'perfect' that communicates the idea of complete or absolute sinlessness. Even with Jesus living in me, I'm incapable of that standard - because I have a sinful nature, that God does not have.

I conclude that,
(1) either God is requiring something I cannot attain (perfection) - which makes God a liar (which He is not - Heb 6:18), or

(2) in the original languages, 'perfection' has a meaning that is difference from our English connotation.

The word for 'perfect' in Matt 5:48 is teleios. It refers to a goal and I don't know one single word in English to convey its meaning. It doesn't mean absolute sinlessness, just like God can't sin, because if we go back to Matt 5:6, the disciples are blessed if they 'hunger and thirst for righteousness'. Verse 7 states, 'Blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy' (NIV). They are not yet completely merciful but will be shown mercy by God if they engage in merciful acts.

Therefore, I conclude that 'perfect' is not the meaning of teleios. In fact, it's a misleading interpretation of the original. The statement of Matt 5:48 comes from Deut 18:13, 'Thou shalt be perfect with the Lord thy God' (KJV), which modern translations render as, 'You shall be blameless before the Lord your God' (NKJV). Here, 'perfect' is the Hebrew, tham, which means 'complete', like a whole number (Lenski).

We are called to reach the goal of maturity in Christ, to become blameless, complete, a person of integrity, in his sight.

Oz

Great explanation. Thank you for sharing dear Oz

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

But while you are fasting, anoint your head and wash your face so that you may not appear to people as one fasting, but to your Father, the One in secret. And your Father, the One seeing in secret, will reward you.​

Matthew 6:17-18 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 6:17-18&version=DLNT

Are you fasting in secret in obedience to the Lord’s command?

Yes very secretly I fast . It's an experiment I'm tying dear Chessman. Being carnal by nature I'm fighting my sinfulness, and trying to fast against it. I have none to show or share. I understand it's always between God n us. Why drag other humans into it. Each one of us has to fight our own battles as we wrestle the flesh and the world and the devil moment by moment through out our lives . I wish to do what Jesus orders in Luke 9:23
Mahatma Gandhi , few would know, was an avid follower of Christ . He used to experiment with the truths of the Bible and used to delight in them.
I wish to to also. That's how we also get to test the truths and find thyre good

 

[Knotical]

I cannot be completely sinless - perfect - even with Him living in me because of my sinful nature.

Of course that is our human nature. But when we are with Christ we are no longer under the burden of sin, and are able to strive to be Christ-like, which is as perfect as a human can be before we join Him in Heaven.

 

[Edward]

It is blasphemy to say that the Holy Spirit does not make you holy. This is what happens when you are born again.....you are holy and are being transformed into perfection (like him)

2 Corinthians 3:18 And we who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.

This may come across as a challenging statement but I do believe it is true, and you have perhaps hit the nail on the head here. God sees us through the blood of Jesus is what scripture says.

and we are to take on the very character of Christ and be transformed into his likeness and that is a progressive time consuming process. I personally believe that this growth process stops when we stop being led of the Spirit!

 

[Edward]

Of course that is our human nature. But when we are with Christ we are no longer under the burden of sin, and are able to strive to be Christ-like, which is as perfect as a human can be before we join Him in Heaven.

Agreed, Brother. Sorry I misunderstood you earlier. :wink

 

[OzSpen]

Of course that is our human nature. But when we are with Christ we are no longer under the burden of sin, and are able to strive to be Christ-like, which is as perfect as a human can be before we join Him in Heaven.

However, the original Hebrew and Greek for the word translated as 'perfect' in the KJV does not mean that, as I explained above.

Even with Christ in me, I cannot strive for absolute sinlessness as that is impossible for this sinful human being.

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by the 'burden of sin' but this I know: The sin nature within me did not disappear at salvation.

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

This may come across as a challenging statement but I do believe it is true, and you have perhaps hit the nail on the head here. God sees us through the blood of Jesus is what scripture says.

and we are to take on the very character of Christ and be transformed into his likeness and that is a progressive time consuming process. I personally believe that this growth process stops when we stop being led of the Spirit!

I believe it's a joint effort ----ours and Holy spirit's. Holy Spirit won't help unless we endeavor to walk in spirit, and resist fleshly sinful desires. And if God wants us to be perfect, I believe we can be , else He made a mistake , calling us to be holy and blameless. By saying we cannot be holy and blameless is to deny God's word and our call of very strict obedience John 14:15, Matthew 16:24
I don't really pay too much attention to what church pastors teach. I can see plainly from the Word that there is a call for strict obedience.
Mark 8:35
For whoever wants to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me and for the gospel will save it.
In the following verse Jesus is promising hell for sinful believers

Matthew 5:29 ►

If your right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.

 

[OzSpen]

I believe it's a joint effort ----ours and Holy spirit's. Holy Spirit won't help unless we endeavor to walk in spirit, and resist fleshly sinful desires. And if God wants us to be perfect, I believe we can be , else He made a mistake , calling us to be holy and blameless. By saying we cannot be holy and blameless is to deny God's word and our call of very strict obedience John 14:15.

Rajesh,

Can you become sinlessly perfect in this life?

Oz

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

Rajesh,

Can you become sinlessly perfect in this life?

Oz

Good question Oz. Hmmm i don't think 100% sinlessness is attainable. But I've seen Believers who have fought hard FWD ( Flesh World devil ) and I've seen Christians who live in sin oblivious to judgment . So there could be varying degrees of sin 0 to 100. By saying we cannot be hundred percent sinless we cannot allow ourselves to walk in sin and fall pray to devil , who would love for us to think " oh because I cannot be totally sinless , let me sin"
Jesus talks about better to gouge eye out than to let whole body be cast into hell. Jesus expectations from us are very very high , to the point we cry out . That hard I guess
A man was wearing a t shirt on which I saw was written "Jesus is harder than hell"
I was indignant when I saw what was written . But in many ways it wasn't wrong.
Let's see what Paul had to endure for obeying Matthew 28: 18-20
I have worked much harder, been in prison more frequently, been flogged more severely, and been exposed to death again and again. 24 Five times I received from the Jews the forty lashes minus one. 25 Three times I was beaten with rods, once I was pelted with stones, three times I was shipwrecked, I spent a night and a day in the open sea, 26 I have been constantly on the move. I have been in danger from rivers, in danger from bandits, in danger from my fellow Jews, in danger from Gentiles; in danger in the city, in danger in the country, in danger at sea; and in danger from false believers. 27 I have labored and toiled and have often gone without sleep; I have known hunger and thirst and have often gone without food; I have been cold and naked.
( 2 Corinthians 11: 23 - 27)
Our call is no different than Paul's call. Often we do not understand and think it was just his. But Jesus promised no servant is greater than the master ......if Christ suffered we the followers will have to , too...There is no other way out. The good news is Jesus says in John 16:33
“I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world.”

 

[Edward]

I believe it's a joint effort ----ours and Holy spirit's. Holy Spirit won't help unless we endeavor to walk in spirit, and resist fleshly sinful desires. And if God wants us to be perfect, I believe we can be , else He made a mistake , calling us to be holy and blameless. By saying we cannot be holy and blameless is to deny God's word and our call of very strict obedience John 14:15, Matthew 16:24
I don't really pay too much attention to what church pastors teach. I can see plainly from the Word that there is a call for strict obedience.
Mark 8:35
For whoever wants to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me and for the gospel will save it.
In the following verse Jesus is promising hell for sinful believers

Matthew 5:29 ►

If your right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.

Oh it is absolutely a joint effort. :yes

 

[JohnDB]

Holy...Pure, perfect, good, without error, assigned for special use (shew bread vx regular bread)

Blessed are the holy of heart for they shall see God.

 

[ezra]

Holy -sanctified -justified yes WE ARE ---- HOLINESS
1 Peter 1:13–16
Called to Be Holy

13 Therefore, preparing your minds for action,2 and being sober-minded, set your hope fully on the grace that will be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ. 14 As obedient children, do not be conformed to the passions of your former ignorance, 15 but as he who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct, 16 since it is written, “You shall be holy, for I am holy.”
romans 12 tells us to be transformed changed by the renewing of your mind .being Holy is a 24/7 job .
Romans 6:22
But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end everlasting life.
we have to be connected to the true vine .if we are saved we are connected and yes it takes effort on our part . we have to walk in the spirit

 

[for_his_glory]

Is this claiming that all Christians can become perfect - absolutely sinless - on this earth?

I believe we can if we completely guard ourselves, but we do let that guard down at times by allowing our emotions to take over in us as they can be deceiving at times causing us to sin.

 

[for_his_glory]

I believe I understand what it is that you're asking. It actually seems pretty clear. The answer is clearly yes, we are called to be Holy. Why would He call us to be Holy, knowing that it is impossible for us as sinners? (Gasp!)

Easy, because it is impossible for us to be holy...without Christ. We would have to seek the Lord's help, for it is written, with God, all things are possible. So if we would need to seek the Lord's help with this...that's what the Lord wants us to do! Working with the Lord to make this happen in our life...builds relationship!

Can we be Holy while still here on earth? Of course we can, in Christ...on earth as it is in Heaven, remember my Brothers and Sisters?

I suspect that the confusion may arise...with lazy Christians? The type who only want to believe, and no more. Oh, we don't want a works based salvation, they say...and, they may get into Heaven, it is not for me to decide. But the Lord does call us to more than simple belief. This takes pressing in, walking in it and doing more than a hearer only.

The reality of walking with the Lord is that, when one presses in and is led by the Spirit...they will be be called to walk in it and to actually go out and do some good works. We are not bystanders in this spiritual war! We are participants and have a duty to want to help.


Some Christians don't want to do that. Oooo too scary, I'm not worthy, I'm not perfect, so why try?
Uhh...rubbish, Brother. What part of, be ye holy even as I am holy...is hard to understand?
Why do Christians continue to call themselves sinners? I am not a sinner. I am the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus... I have sin within me and do sin at times, tis true. But we have not been taken out of the sin environment yet. Sin's influence is still present at this time. But I do not live a lifestyle of sin, I try to walk a good walk. I fail at times like we all do, but I get back up and keep trying, keep asking for the Lords forgiveness and help. I would rather fail in effort trying, than never tried at all.

In not trying to be holy or not trying to do any good works, we would find ourselves in the position of...the man who had one Talent and buried it in the ground. Who wants to show up empty handed?! Not me, Brother!

Where is that darn like button!!!

 

[Edward]

Where is that darn like button!!!

:nod

 

[ezra]

I believe we can if we completely guard ourselves, but we do let that guard down at times by allowing our emotions to take over in us as they can be deceiving at times causing us to sin.

I believe we can if we completely guard ourselves,--not sure if i agree or disagree but i do like your line of thinking .it would take a well trained mind that has been fully Holy ghost boot camp

 

[for_his_glory]

I believe we can if we completely guard ourselves,--not sure if i agree or disagree but i do like your line of thinking .it would take a well trained mind that has been fully Holy ghost boot camp

I would say my sin is what I allow my mouth to speak in anger when I get all riled up, which is not very often as I am getting better in that area, but quick to repent and ask the one I am yelling at to forgive me. I try my best to keep my mind on those things of Christ and to walk in His Spirit as I crucify this flesh daily.

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

Holy -sanctified -justified yes WE ARE ---- HOLINESS
1 Peter 1:13–16
Called to Be Holy

13 Therefore, preparing your minds for action,2 and being sober-minded, set your hope fully on the grace that will be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ. 14 As obedient children, do not be conformed to the passions of your former ignorance, 15 but as he who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct, 16 since it is written, “You shall be holy, for I am holy.”
romans 12 tells us to be transformed changed by the renewing of your mind .being Holy is a 24/7 job .
Romans 6:22
But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end everlasting life.
we have to be connected to the true vine .if we are saved we are connected and yes it takes effort on our part . we have to walk in the spirit

Aameen , the Aramaic way

 

[OzSpen]

Great explanation. Thank you for sharing dear Oz

Thank you for your encouragement.

 

[ezra]

I would say my sin is what I allow my mouth to speak in anger when I get all riled up, which is not very often as I am getting better in that area, but quick to repent and ask the one I am yelling at to forgive me. I try my best to keep my mind on those things of Christ and to walk in His Spirit as I crucify this flesh daily.

the factory i work at we have techs /set up to keep the line going they also are type straw boss ,we have one every time something does not go his way or the machine has a malfunction he snaps likes to yell or accuse the operator of not doing his job right . we use a term as a joke operator error when equipment breaks down. he is not a people person if he gets loud with me..yes it pushes my button i yell back .yes i have to repent..i do not ask him to forgive me as he fired first shot.. but this is the only way to we live in this world {I try my best to keep my mind on those things of Christ and to walk in His Spirit as I crucify this flesh daily.}

I would say my sin is what I allow my mouth to speak in anger when I get all riled up, which is not very often as I am getting better in that area, but quick to repent and ask the one I am yelling at to forgive me. I try my best to keep my mind on those things of Christ and to walk in His Spirit as I crucify this flesh daily.

aww yes our flesh has a tendency to be a problem . we have a tech who is in charge of our dept to keep running . he is never happy blows a fuse when the equipment brakes down.. at time blames the operator . we lock horn i speak back my bad repent yes,, apologize to him over his ignorance no . do i pray for him?yes Lord strike him with lightning lol.. no i do pray his eyes are opened. he is one of these you dont know till you die if you go to heaven but he is going