Are denominations hinted at in the scripture?

[Pard]

Not specifically, mind you, but bear with me for just a moment.

First, I am not saying that they are. This is a question and I am seeking the wisdom of others in this matter. I was thinking while I was mowing that maybe denominations existed even at the time of Paul. Here's why...

Paul writes letters to various groups of Christians spread out in different lands. Each group is separate in both geography and also powers/strengths/weaknesses. And yet they are all one in the Body of Christ! That's pretty basic I think.

Well, when you really look at it, for the most part, denominations are the same way. They are often based on geographic areas (Baptist in the south, Congro in the north, Anglican in England/Aussieland, etc., etc.). They are often facing different weaknesses and each has different strengths. Many even have different powers (Example:you don't go to a congo church to see people rolling on the floor and speaking in tongues, you go to the pentecostal church to see that)

So what do you guys say? Could denominations be somehow started even at Paul's time?

And please don't get into which denomination is better or if it is allowed at all or how some are not Christian. That is all valid stuff, but take it elsewhere!

 

[tessiewebb]

Not specifically, mind you, but bear with me for just a moment.

First, I am not saying that they are. This is a question and I am seeking the wisdom of others in this matter. I was thinking while I was mowing that maybe denominations existed even at the time of Paul. Here's why...

Paul writes letters to various groups of Christians spread out in different lands. Each group is separate in both geography and also powers/strengths/weaknesses. And yet they are all one in the Body of Christ! That's pretty basic I think.

Well, when you really look at it, for the most part, denominations are the same way. They are often based on geographic areas (Baptist in the south, Congro in the north, Anglican in England/Aussieland, etc., etc.). They are often facing different weaknesses and each has different strengths. Many even have different powers (Example:you don't go to a congo church to see people rolling on the floor and speaking in tongues, you go to the pentecostal church to see that)

So what do you guys say? Could denominations be somehow started even at Paul's time?

And please don't get into which denomination is better or if it is allowed at all or how some are not Christian. That is all valid stuff, but take it elsewhere!

Got ya. Yes, denominations are mentioned in the Bible, in some places they are called divisions. Romans 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. 1 Cor 1:10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and [that] there be no divisions among you; but [that] ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. 1 Cor 1:13 Is Christ divided..?

Also, denominations means a name or designation. Acts 4:12 "Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved."

Paul referred to all the various geographical places where Christians gathered as "the church" IE, 1 Cor 1:2 "Unto the church of God which is at Corinth" or 1 Cor 4:17 "...as I teach every where in every church." Or Romans 16:5 Likewise [greet] the church that is in their house.

Admittedly, to have a group of church meeting places in a large city, for instance, all with the name "The Church" might be confusing and could be seen as exclusionary. Which is pretty much what some "other" names are seen as by those not a part of that denomination.

For instance, I wear pants to church, though I am female, so I would know I am not going to be particularly warmly welcomed at, say, the Pentecostal Holiness Church of God. (Hope I'm not using an actual denominational name!)

However, on a more serious note, it seems Biblically clear that whatever the name of the meeting place in any locale, the teaching, preaching, and doctrines were intended to be the same. That they are not is part of what makes "denomination" almost a slang word for division! And this among the Body Christ died for!

 

[Elijah674]

Not specifically, mind you, but bear with me for just a moment.

First, I am not saying that they are. This is a question and I am seeking the wisdom of others in this matter. I was thinking while I was mowing that maybe denominations existed even at the time of Paul. Here's why...

Paul writes letters to various groups of Christians spread out in different lands. Each group is separate in both geography and also powers/strengths/weaknesses. And yet they are all one in the Body of Christ! That's pretty basic I think.

Well, when you really look at it, for the most part, denominations are the same way. They are often based on geographic areas (Baptist in the south, Congro in the north, Anglican in England/Aussieland, etc., etc.). They are often facing different weaknesses and each has different strengths. Many even have different powers (Example:you don't go to a congo church to see people rolling on the floor and speaking in tongues, you go to the pentecostal church to see that)

So what do you guys say? Could denominations be somehow started even at Paul's time?

And please don't get into which denomination is better or if it is allowed at all or how some are not Christian. That is all valid stuff, but take it elsewhere!

Hi, 'i' say surely! if we can have [others] understand that God created us in His Image with a thinking brain?;)

He has (God) His 'denomination' (!) called His Vineyard, + House, Sanctuary, Temple, Most Holy Place, Throne, + Church. Isa. 5 & Acts7:38 + Heb. These are ALL seen in Rev. 1:20 + 2:5 finds that the candelstick can be removed & the church is still there, but who takes over?? Read Rev. 3:9!

Back to Christ's Word of John 10:16
[16] And other sheep I have, which are not of [this fold:] them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

If Christ were IN the 'others folds' why must they leave?? And even then, it took the power of Caesar to execute Christ Himself. Call them what you so want, but Church denominations they are! And 'hinted at'?? Sounds very straight forward to me.

Over in Rev. 18:4 we see the call to come OUT OF HER MY PEOPLE! Out from yoked Rev. 17:1-5 'membership' or they ARE PARTAKERS of her sins. Again a women her & My people. As was seen in the first history of Eccl. 3:15 of John 10:16.

+ of course Rev. 17:1-5's capps seen by the copliliars theirself. (and woman is church, + whore is a bad doctrinal church & daughters? you can figure that out?)

[1] And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon [many waters:] (world/wide)
[2] With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.
[3] So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
[4] And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
[5] And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

And all throughout the OT we see different names given for satans church's or whatever name you want to give it meaning the same pagon gods + stuff.

--Elijah

 

[Sinthesis]

Yes; denominations are hinted at in scripture. They are even good. If they were not, then everything in our religious life would be governed in detail by an essential and inflexible doctrine. Clearly this is not biblically correct.
:2cents

 

[dadof10]

Not specifically, mind you, but bear with me for just a moment.

First, I am not saying that they are. This is a question and I am seeking the wisdom of others in this matter. I was thinking while I was mowing that maybe denominations existed even at the time of Paul. Here's why...

Paul writes letters to various groups of Christians spread out in different lands. Each group is separate in both geography and also powers/strengths/weaknesses. And yet they are all one in the Body of Christ! That's pretty basic I think.

Well, when you really look at it, for the most part, denominations are the same way. They are often based on geographic areas (Baptist in the south, Congro in the north, Anglican in England/Aussieland, etc., etc.). They are often facing different weaknesses and each has different strengths. Many even have different powers (Example:you don't go to a congo church to see people rolling on the floor and speaking in tongues, you go to the pentecostal church to see that)

So what do you guys say? Could denominations be somehow started even at Paul's time?

And please don't get into which denomination is better or if it is allowed at all or how some are not Christian. That is all valid stuff, but take it elsewhere!

Well, I'm going to be the only dissenter so far (surprise!!) and say no way. You speak of different strengths, weaknesses, powers and geography. There is no mention of doctrine. That's what separates the denominations. One believes in OSAS, one doesn't. One is UR, one's not. I have never heard of a group of people splitting from a pastor or church due to anything you mentioned above. It's always doctrinal.

The early Church was one in doctrine and when there was a controversy (like Gentile circumcision) the Church called an authoritative council to make a decision (Acts 15). This decision was binding on ALL the different geographical churches (Acts 16:4), not just the one who brought the case. This is the Biblical model of "Church", not a bunch of denominations each teaching conflicting doctrines and splitting from each other over and over again.

 

[reba]

Denomination are like back yard fences, they make for better neighbours.

 

[tessiewebb]

Yes; denominations are hinted at in scripture. They are even good. If they were not, then everything in our religious life would be governed in detail by an essential and inflexible doctrine. Clearly this is not biblically correct.
:2cents

I'd really like to see how you see that having a single "doctrine" (gospel) is not biblically correct. Please.

 

[tessiewebb]

Well, I'm going to be the only dissenter so far (surprise!!) and say no way. You speak of different strengths, weaknesses, powers and geography. There is no mention of doctrine. That's what separates the denominations. One believes in OSAS, one doesn't. One is UR, one's not. I have never heard of a group of people splitting from a pastor or church due to anything you mentioned above. It's always doctrinal.

The early Church was one in doctrine and when there was a controversy (like Gentile circumcision) the Church called an authoritative council to make a decision (Acts 15). This decision was binding on ALL the different geographical churches (Acts 16:4), not just the one who brought the case. This is the Biblical model of "Church", not a bunch of denominations each teaching conflicting doctrines and splitting from each other over and over again.

AMEN!

 

[tessiewebb]

Denomination are like back yard fences, they make for better neighbours.

How so, Reba?

 

[Elijah674]

Well, I'm going to be the only dissenter so far (surprise!!) and say no way. You speak of different strengths, weaknesses, powers and geography. There is no mention of doctrine. That's what separates the denominations. One believes in OSAS, one doesn't. One is UR, one's not. I have never heard of a group of people splitting from a pastor or church due to anything you mentioned above. It's always doctrinal.

The early Church was one in doctrine and when there was a controversy (like Gentile circumcision) the Church called an authoritative council to make a decision (Acts 15). This decision was binding on ALL the different geographical churches (Acts 16:4), not just the one who brought the case. This is the Biblical model of "Church", not a bunch of denominations each teaching conflicting doctrines and splitting from each other over and over again.

___________

--Elijah Here:

Your Acts 15 [posting] was only about Moses Law & Circumcism and the outcome.

In Matt. 18 we find how individual members are to be worked with. And it is not a group of men or even one person who can key in or out of the church membership, that heaven will ratify. But the whole of the church body itself.

And surely as from the Gen. start to Rev.'s finish the CANDELSTICK (Church) is also required to be Loving + OBEDIENT or it would be removed as seen in Rev. 2:5 + all of the ones seen in Rev. 17:1-5. These of the Great world/wide mother WHORE & her daughters!

Matt. 18
[13] And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray. (Being the True Church in total Obedience that Christ started up)
[14] Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.
[15] Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
[16] But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
[17] And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but [if he neglect to hear the church], let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.
[18] Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

And surely satan has his great worldwide whore & daughters in counterfeit.
Yet, in Matt. 7 we see ones Lord being just one of two Folds, all are of Christ or all of these others are of satan. That is why we see the Rev. 18:4's last warning, for Christ still has some few left in yoked membership of these Rev. 17:1-5 ones who must leave that are still deceived! (and world/wide they are leaving by the thousands)

 

[Tina]

Could denominations be somehow started even at Paul's time?

Actually it was already clearly mentioned way before Paul's time by JESUS Himself in His Parable of the Narrow & Wide Gates in Matthew 7.


Matthew 7:13-14

Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.



Matthew 7:21-23

Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’




I believe these Truths can be applied to both denominations and individual believers.

 

[Elijah674]

Actually it was already clearly mentioned way before Paul's time by JESUS Himself in His Parable of the Narrow & Wide Gates in Matthew 7.


Matthew 7:13-14

Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.



Matthew 7:21-23

Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’




I believe these Truths can be applied to both denominations and individual believers.

Very good! Now finish with how Christ told us to tell the difference!

 

[Pard]

Actually it was already clearly mentioned way before Paul's time by JESUS Himself in His Parable of the Narrow & Wide Gates in Matthew 7.


Matthew 7:13-14

Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.



Matthew 7:21-23

Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’




I believe these Truths can be applied to both denominations and individual believers.

Let's pretend for a second that I don't understand the reference here... :

 

[CalledToServe]

Let's pretend for a second that I don't understand the reference here... :

When Yeshua* was speaking He was referring to the different sects of Judaism. The major denominations/sects of Judaism in His lifetime were the Saducees, Pharisees, Essenes, Sicarii, and Zealots. Keep in mind that Yeshua's ministry was to the Jews not to the Gentiles. Hence when Christ spoke in Matthew 7:6, "“Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces." He was referring to the Gentiles because according to Judaism Gentiles are unclean. Gentiles did not become Christian until after the death, burial, and resurrection of Yeshua but before His ascension when He gave the great commission.

*Yeshua is Jesus's name in Hebrew.

 

[Sinthesis]

I'd really like to see how you see that having a single "doctrine" (gospel) is not biblically correct. Please.

I didn't use the word 'gospel', because "doctrine" and (gospel) do not mean the same thing. If they did, then you would have to condemn the women who wear dresses to church as heretics. Who taught you to wear pants to church? It sure wasn't Jesus, because I doubt He wore pants.

 

[Pard]

Yeah, but that's because He knew everything and really knew that pants are one of the most awful torture devices ever made! :toofunny

But seriously, I think it's a pretty important distinction you made there Sin. There is a H-U-G-E difference between "doctrine" and "Gospel". Very important distinction.

 

[Sinthesis]

When Yeshua* was speaking He was referring to the different sects of Judaism. The major denominations/sects of Judaism in His lifetime were the Saducees, Pharisees, Essenes, Sicarii, and Zealots. Keep in mind that Yeshua's ministry was to the Jews not to the Gentiles. Hence when Christ spoke in Matthew 7:6, "“Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces." He was referring to the Gentiles because according to Judaism Gentiles are unclean. Gentiles did not become Christian until after the death, burial, and resurrection of Yeshua but before His ascension when He gave the great commission.

*Yeshua is Jesus's name in Hebrew.

Nobody became a Christian until after the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus. Yet Jesus was/is for anyone looking to Him.

Mat 15:21 ¶ Then Jesus went thence, and departed into the coasts of Tyre and Sidon.
Mat 15:22 - And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, [thou] Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.
Mat 15:23 - But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.
Mat 15:24 - But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Mat 15:25 - Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.
Mat 15:26 - But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast [it] to dogs.
Mat 15:27 - And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.
Mat 15:28 - Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great [is] thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.​

 

[CalledToServe]

Nobody became a Christian until after the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus. Yet Jesus was/is for anyone looking to Him.

Mat 15:21 ¶ Then Jesus went thence, and departed into the coasts of Tyre and Sidon.
Mat 15:22 - And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, [thou] Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.
Mat 15:23 - But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.
Mat 15:24 - But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Mat 15:25 - Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.
Mat 15:26 - But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast [it] to dogs.
Mat 15:27 - And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.
Mat 15:28 - Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great [is] thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.​

If you want to split hairs okay. Those that followed Jesus in His ministry were called Nazirites since they followed Him. Christians as a term didn't come into use until after the Greeks transliterated Yeshua the Mashiach into Iesus Christos. During His earthly ministry those that followed Him were messianic Jews. So yes, there were Christians before His death, burial, and resurrection. His followers had to wait for the prophecies to be fulfilled until after His death, burial, and resurrection.

 

[Pard]

Yeah, gotta agree with Sin here. What about the woman who went to the well to fetch water? Jesus said to her that she ought to drink of His water, for if she does she will never thirst again. And she did this, but she was not a Jew, she was a gentile. Remember? She even said something to the effect of "Why are you talking to me? I am only a gentile and you are a jew."

 

[CalledToServe]

Yeah, gotta agree with Sin here. What about the woman who went to the well to fetch water? Jesus said to her that she ought to drink of His water, for if she does she will never thirst again. And she did this, but she was not a Jew, she was a gentile. Remember? She even said something to the effect of "Why are you talking to me? I am only a gentile and you are a jew."

You do realize that Samaritans are Jewish right? They were one of the 12 tribes that split for Israel after Joshua conquered Canaan. Jews and Samaritans have a long standing feud since then over who had the true Jewish priesthood. This split has continued to this day. This is the reason why Jews and Saramitans didn't associate with each other.

So you're going to discount all of the people that followed Jesus in His earthly ministry as being Christians. That contradicts scripture in the Gospels you do realize that I hope.