Are the gifts from God or the anti christ

[Tina]

Once again you are accusing me of saying things I did not say. I did not say healing has ceased. I did not say God no longer heals. God does, indeed, heal. Man does not heal, nor does he raise the dead, nor does he walk on water, nor does he tell the future or ride the sky in chariots of fire. I never deny the power of God, but I do deny the power of man who wishes to take on himself the powers of God. We were talking about the signs and wonders given to the Apostles. I gave many verses that say those signs and wonders were given to them. The members of the body are given spiritual gifts...there is a difference and you seem to be unable to separate the two.

I have laid hands and prayed for people who needed healing, and many have come back to say that they have been healed, almost instantly ... and I'm NOT an Apostle, neither do I claim to be one. I am just a servant of the Lord who exercises faith and authority of Jesus Christ (Luke 10:19) and am willing to be used by Him. I make sure I give God all the glory for the testimonies that I hear.


:amen

 

[glorydaz]

Once again you are accusing me of saying things I did not say. I did not say healing has ceased. I did not say God no longer heals. God does, indeed, heal. Man does not heal, nor does he raise the dead, nor does he walk on water, nor does he tell the future or ride the sky in chariots of fire. I never deny the power of God, but I do deny the power of man who wishes to take on himself the powers of God. We were talking about the signs and wonders given to the Apostles. I gave many verses that say those signs and wonders were given to them. The members of the body are given spiritual gifts...there is a difference and you seem to be unable to separate the two.

I have laid hands and prayed for people who needed healing, and many have come back to say that they have been healed, almost instantly ... and I'm NOT an Apostle, neither do I claim to be one. I am just a servant of the Lord who exercises faith and authority of Jesus Christ (Luke 10:19) and am willing to be used by Him. I make sure I give God all the glory for the testimonies that I hear.

:amen

Are you praying for the Lord to heal, or are you claiming it as a gift the Lord has given you?
As I said, earlier, perhaps in another thread, we're told to anoint with oil and pray. I've done that with my own children on a regular basis. I always give God the glory when He answers prayer. They'd be dead if the Lord hadn't answered my prayers, so obviously they were healed. Does that even come close to the healings that took place during the times of the Apostles? Any crippled people walking, or blind people receiving their sight? That's what I'm talking about...the difference between the answer to prayer and the sign gifts...the signs and wonders done by the Apostles.

 

[Tina]

Does that even come close to the healings that took place during the times of the Apostles? Any crippled people walking, or blind people receiving their sight? That's what I'm talking about...the difference between the answer to prayer and the sign gifts...the signs and wonders done by the Apostles.

As a matter of fact, I've seen the crippled walk, blind people seeing, deaf hearing and the dead resurrected .... all these are happening in my country in churches, and the preachers don't claim to be "Apostles".

Perhaps if these things happen in the United States, people will be quick to point fingers and cry "fraud", and where I live I've seen the miracles happen before my very eyes.

 

[glorydaz]

Does that even come close to the healings that took place during the times of the Apostles? Any crippled people walking, or blind people receiving their sight? That's what I'm talking about...the difference between the answer to prayer and the sign gifts...the signs and wonders done by the Apostles.

As a matter of fact, I've seen the crippled walk, blind people seeing, deaf hearing and the dead resurrected .... all these are happening in my country in churches, and the preachers don't claim to be "Apostles".

Perhaps if these things happen in the United States, people will be quick to point fingers and cry "fraud", and where I live I've seen the miracles happen before my very eyes.

Perhaps.

 

[GodspromisesRyes]

Tina AMEN

We have had two resurections from the dead in my church and I have heard other brethern in this country with the same testimonies. I do not believe the problem is that any of this has passed away, but that for a very long time, most denominations and churches have taught people they are passed away so where is the faith that it can be done? That is why when and where these things happen they happen often and powerfully but when and where they do not, there the people do not believe it and wont recieve it.

To say that we should have healings on cnn is to assume something not told to us in the word of God. We do know that the news of this world is just that- of this world. It is not about giving glory to God or showing His wonders and works. Half of those people would be fired if they even suggested it. They never talk about the Lord until it is to slam a false preacher and act like the money grubbers represent all the rest of us believers so they can vilify christians.

I have however seen on my local news healing testimonies! For a short time they had a segment about it once a week where they would tell of miracles and healings from our local area but they do not seem to do it anymore.

The thing is the resurections happened before Jesus came and made apostles. And saints had faith that God would raise a person from the dead IF it were needed before it was ever recorded in the word of God.

Hbr 11:6 But without faith [it is] impossible to please [him]: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and [that] he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Hbr 11:17 ¶ By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten [son],


Hbr 11:18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:


Hbr 11:19 Accounting that God [was] able to raise [him] up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.


* Even Abraham- our father- believed that God was able to raise Isaac up from the dead!

Hbr 11:33 Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions,


Hbr 11:34 Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens.


Hbr 11:35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:

Again we are told it is by FAITH- women had their dead raised again praise God! There are resurections in the OT and NT and never was there put on them a time to start and stop happening or the stipulations on who must do it such as an apostle or that they would stop and could not be beleived for.- and as far as signs and wonders go they were not just for a time or for just the jews. the bible tells us that the jews require a sign- but Jesus said no sign was given to them except that of jonah. but signs and wonders were given all through the NT to confirm the word preached and they were considered with the preaching of the gospel to be the fulfillment of the gospel being preached. IF the gospel was preached without signs and wonders it was considered to have NOT been preached fully.

 

[jasoncran]

There are Christians who believe the sign gifts have ceased and there are Christians who believe the sign gifts continue...both groups use the same verses and come to different conclusions. For either side to say the other comes from the antichrist seems a bit much to me.

It's also wrong for either side to say the other side is lacking in spirituality. Charismatics can be called Holy Rollers and the other side can be called indoctrinated but both those attitudes would be self-righteous and judgmental...and to what effect? Division of the body. Let one eat meat and the other not...there are abuses and denials enough without anything beneficial coming from the finger pointing that comes from such an issue. I say let it go...whichever side you're on. It is not an essential for salvation.

amen to that. i have been on the holly roller side but i never thought those that dont have the gifts werent saved, that isnt biblical!

 

[jasoncran]

Does that even come close to the healings that took place during the times of the Apostles? Any crippled people walking, or blind people receiving their sight? That's what I'm talking about...the difference between the answer to prayer and the sign gifts...the signs and wonders done by the Apostles.

As a matter of fact, I've seen the crippled walk, blind people seeing, deaf hearing and the dead resurrected .... all these are happening in my country in churches, and the preachers don't claim to be "Apostles".

Perhaps if these things happen in the United States, people will be quick to point fingers and cry "fraud", and where I live I've seen the miracles happen before my very eyes.

i live in the u.s and it does happen. even the episcolpalean church has seen that in their church. If you look hard enough and truthfully you will see that the churches do this.

 

[glorydaz]

Does that even come close to the healings that took place during the times of the Apostles? Any crippled people walking, or blind people receiving their sight? That's what I'm talking about...the difference between the answer to prayer and the sign gifts...the signs and wonders done by the Apostles.

As a matter of fact, I've seen the crippled walk, blind people seeing, deaf hearing and the dead resurrected .... all these are happening in my country in churches, and the preachers don't claim to be "Apostles".

Perhaps if these things happen in the United States, people will be quick to point fingers and cry "fraud", and where I live I've seen the miracles happen before my very eyes.

i live in the u.s and it does happen. even the episcolpalean church has seen that in their church. If you look hard enough and truthfully you will see that the churches do this.

The signs and wonders were to confirm Christ....by those that "heard Him".

So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God. And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;

These signs and wonders were "written" so that we may believe...not so we could replicate them.

And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Why would God take someone's life and then raise him from the dead, if none believe and are persuaded? To increase the faith of the believer? We need signs and wonders?

Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

What we do have to remember is what the Word tells us will come upon us through deception.

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

 

[jasoncran]

i'm refering the healings no those.

as a far as raising the dead, that are buried, i'm not sure.

 

[glorydaz]

i'm refering the healings no those.

as a far as raising the dead, that are buried, i'm not sure.

Going back to the topic of this thread, as to whether the gifts are from God or the antichrist, I'm beginning to rethink my original answer. What I'm seeing is the adversary may very well be responsible for the abuse of gifts by drawing believers away from their purpose. Instead of gifts to edify the body, they seem to have taken on a life of their own. They have become signs and wonders, and those who question them are often told they are lacking faith. I'm concerned by the fruit of these "gifts" and what it's doing to the body of Christ.

 

[jasoncran]

a valid question.

 

[picklesbiz]

i'm refering the healings no those.

as a far as raising the dead, that are buried, i'm not sure.

Going back to the topic of this thread, as to whether the gifts are from God or the antichrist, I'm beginning to rethink my original answer. What I'm seeing is the adversary may very well be responsible for the abuse of gifts by drawing believers away from their purpose. Instead of gifts to edify the body, they seem to have taken on a life of their own. They have become signs and wonders, and those who question them are often told they are lacking faith. I'm concerned by the fruit of these "gifts" and what it's doing to the body of Christ.

Paul talked about the evidence of an Apostle being miracles, signs, and wonders. There is nothing wrong with such as long as we are within Gods will. But we are a lazy people who do not spend time in prayer as we should (including me) and we therefore frequently operate outside of God's will. Of course that leads us to a whole plethora of other theological issues. A close reading of the New Testament shows the Apostles frequently praying before a miracle was performed. As if they were talking with God about what He wanted to do, not what they wanted. Personally I think that'd probably be the best way to go about things. But that's just a dumb hick from out in the boonies without all the fancy high dollar edumacation.

 

[glorydaz]

Going back to the topic of this thread, as to whether the gifts are from God or the antichrist, I'm beginning to rethink my original answer. What I'm seeing is the adversary may very well be responsible for the abuse of gifts by drawing believers away from their purpose. Instead of gifts to edify the body, they seem to have taken on a life of their own. They have become signs and wonders, and those who question them are often told they are lacking faith. I'm concerned by the fruit of these "gifts" and what it's doing to the body of Christ.

Paul talked about the evidence of an Apostle being miracles, signs, and wonders. There is nothing wrong with such as long as we are within Gods will. But we are a lazy people who do not spend time in prayer as we should (including me) and we therefore frequently operate outside of God's will. Of course that leads us to a whole plethora of other theological issues. A close reading of the New Testament shows the Apostles frequently praying before a miracle was performed. As if they were talking with God about what He wanted to do, not what they wanted. Personally I think that'd probably be the best way to go about things. But that's just a dumb hick from out in the boonies without all the fancy high dollar edumacation.

You're right, there are many Christians that don't spend enough time in prayer, but the body of Christ is filled with believers who are powerful in faith and prayer. Signs and wonders were given to the Apostles to confirm the truth to the Jews. Israel began with signs, was led by signs, and demanded signs from Christ. These signs and wonders were given to establish the early church and are not for today. We have something better...we have access to the throne of God and come directly to Him through prayer. We are filled with the Holy Spirit when we're born again, and He gives gifts as He will for the edification of the body. They are the means of showing forth the love of God that abides in us. I sure agree about it's being what God wants and not what we want....I'm a country hick from the boonies, too, and that should be a no-brainer. LOL

 

[picklesbiz]

Oh for crying out loud. So are you really trying to say that miracles, signs, and wonders and the Gifts of the Spirit were only in evidence to the Jews? Come on, lets read the rest of the Bible not just the parts that fit our own presuppositions. And yes I am irritated with your last post.

 

[glorydaz]

Oh for crying out loud. So are you really trying to say that miracles, signs, and wonders and the Gifts of the Spirit were only in evidence to the Jews? Come on, lets read the rest of the Bible not just the parts that fit our own presuppositions. And yes I am irritated with your last post.

Irritation is not a sign of the Holy Spirit.

Had you really read my post, without assuming, you'd see I said the signs and wonder were given to the Apostles as proof of Jesus being the Son of God. We are still given gifts by the Holy Spirit. I suppose you can be as irritated about that as you like...it doesn't make it any less true. The rest of the Bible supports what I've said, so accusing me of posting just parts is simply a being antagonistic.

 

[picklesbiz]

I chose to lump Gifts and Signs & Wonders together for I believe they are intimately related. Apostles the 5 fold ministries (as they are called) and Gifts of the Spirit are all for the edification of the Body. If we try to say that Apostles are no longer valid then we might as well be picking and choosing what to take out of the Bible. To say that we have the Gifts of the Spirit today without miracles signs and wonders is like saying you have a car but no gas. I personally am convinced that we do not give an accurate representation of the Gospel of Jesus Christ without the Gifts, Ministries, and Signs.

 

[GodspromisesRyes]

I chose to lump Gifts and Signs & Wonders together for I believe they are intimately related. Apostles the 5 fold ministries (as they are called) and Gifts of the Spirit are all for the edification of the Body. If we try to say that Apostles are no longer valid then we might as well be picking and choosing what to take out of the Bible. To say that we have the Gifts of the Spirit today without miracles signs and wonders is like saying you have a car but no gas. I personally am convinced that we do not give an accurate representation of the Gospel of Jesus Christ without the Gifts, Ministries, and Signs.

amen I agree, that the gospel is not ' fully preached" unless it is accompanied not only by the words of truth but by the manifestation of the power of God through miracles signs wonders and gifts. The reason being that what is being SHOWN in those is not just that the word preached is true, as in accurate. But that it is the KINGDOM that is preached and the POWER of the kingdom comes forth to those who BELIEVE. In the kingdom we are seated in heavenly places, we are placed with Christ above every power of the enemy, we are freed from the bondage sin had over us, we are provided for in all things both physical and spiritual that is needed for LIFE and GODLINESS. We are removed from the curse that came because of sin which includes all sickness etc... The Kingdom of God is IN US NOW and if we are led in that Kingdom by the Spirit of God we see deliverance from the things Jesus paid for. So when the word is fully preached, it manifests the kingdom to those who believe! Praise God!
Rom 15:16 That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.


Rom 15:17 I have therefore whereof I may glory through Jesus Christ in those things which pertain to God.


Rom 15:18 For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ hath not wrought by me, to make the Gentiles obedient, by word and deed,


Rom 15:19 Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.

Rom 15:29 And I am sure that, when I come unto you, I shall come in the fulness of the blessing of the gospel of Christ.


Now if ONLY the apostles could do these why do we see others doing them?

Act 8:13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.
Act 6:8 And Stephen, full of faith and power, did great wonders and miracles among the people.

 

[glorydaz]

amen I agree, that the gospel is not ' fully preached" unless it is accompanied not only by the words of truth but by the manifestation of the power of God through miracles signs wonders and gifts. The reason being that what is being SHOWN in those is not just that the word preached is true, as in accurate. But that it is the KINGDOM that is preached and the POWER of the kingdom comes forth to those who BELIEVE. In the kingdom we are seated in heavenly places, we are placed with Christ above every power of the enemy, we are freed from the bondage sin had over us, we are provided for in all things both physical and spiritual that is needed for LIFE and GODLINESS. We are removed from the curse that came because of sin which includes all sickness etc...

We are redeemed from the curse of the LAW...not the curses the law put on those who did not obey the law. The law, itself, brought death. It's the LAW we have been redeemed from.

And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Now if ONLY the apostles could do these why do we see others doing them?

Act 8:13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.
Act 6:8 And Stephen, full of faith and power, did great wonders and miracles among the people.

Believers are not given the supernatural ability cart blanche like the apostles to do miracles at the drop of hat. Otherwise they would not have had to call Peter to raise Tabitha - they would have done it themselves.

And forasmuch as Lydda was nigh to Joppa, and the disciples had heard that Peter was there, they sent unto him two men, desiring him that he would not delay to come to them. Then Peter arose and went with them. When he was come, they brought him into the upper chamber: and all the widows stood by him weeping, and shewing the coats and garments which Dorcas made, while she was with them. But Peter put them all forth, and kneeled down, and prayed; and turning him to the body said, Tabitha, arise. And she opened her eyes: and when she saw Peter, she sat up. And he gave her his hand, and lifted her up, and when he had called the saints and widows, presented her alive.

Philip and Stephen were directly chosen by the Apostles, laid hands on by the Apostles during the establishment of the early church.

And they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and the Holy Spirit, and Philip, Prochorus, Nicanor, Timon, Parmenas, and Nicolas, a proselyte from Antioch, whom they set before the apostles; and when they had prayed, they laid hands on them. Then the word of God spread, and the number of the disciples multiplied greatly in Jerusalem, and a great many of the priests were obedient to the faith.

If all the church could do miracles like the apostles and this was normal, then this would be meaningless for Paul say in 2 Corinthians 12:13 “Truly the signs of an apostle were accomplished among you with all perseverance, in signs and wonders and mighty deeds.â€

Throughout the book of Acts (actually called the Acts of the Apostles) we see the apostles doing the signs and wonders. There are only two specifically mentioned that did these miracles and they were appointed by the apostles.

The writer of Hebrews 2:3-4: “how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him, God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders , with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will?â€

I believe in God’s power and we can pray and He can still do mighty things, heal and do miracles. He can do beyond all that we ask (Eph.3:20) but to promise an absolute recovery by supernatural healing, or resurrection of dead people is not faith but presumption, God does not have to obey what you ask or command, instead we are to obey him.

 

[GodspromisesRyes]

God only does what He promised when He is believed upon for His promises.

Mar 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Mar 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

Mar 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
THEN THAT BELIEVE what the apostles and disciples preached shall in His name cast out devils speak with new tongues take up esrpents etc lay hands on the sick AND THEY SHALL RECOVER.-That is a promise to those who believe the word that was preached! And those that believe HAVE SIGNS THAT FOLLOW THEM TOO! not just apostles.

Jam 5:14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:

Jam 5:15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him. -The prayer OF FAITH SHALL SAVE the sick and the LORD SHALL RAISE HIM UP. THAT IS A PROMISE.

Jhn 14:12 ¶ Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater [works] than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

Jhn 14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

Jhn 14:14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do [it]. -THAT IS A PROMISE

Jhn 16:23 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give [it] you.

Jhn 16:24 Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full.
THAT IS A PROMISE.


Mat 18:18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Mat 18:19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.
THAT IS A PROMISE.

1Jo 5:14 ¶ And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us:

1Jo 5:15 And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him.
THIS IS A PROMISE.

Eph 3:20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us, - WHat is the point in saying this If He is ABLE BUT UNWILLING.


How sad that we have a better covenant with better promises. a high priest who understands our infirmities and has compassion and to believe that in His mercy now having made us actual sons and daughters of God that He would desire never to heal some of His faithful children. I do not even know a man that cruel that would leave His child in agonly who would throw all their trust on them for healing and they would turn them away. But yet this is the form of God being presented here by people. A God who hears His children in agonly under the curse and cares not to free him. Not moved with Compassion. NOT willing to give us BETTER than our earthly fathers

Mat 7:7 ¶ Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:


Mat 7:8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.


Mat 7:9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?


Mat 7:10 Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?


Mat 7:11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?
THAT IS A PROMISE!

 

[glorydaz]

How sad that we have a better covenant with better promises. a high priest who understands our infirmities and has compassion and to believe that in His mercy now having made us actual sons and daughters of God that He would desire never to heal some of His faithful children. I do not even know a man that cruel that would leave His child in agonly who would throw all their trust on them for healing and they would turn them away. But yet this is the form of God being presented here by people. A God who hears His children in agonly under the curse and cares not to free him. Not moved with Compassion. NOT willing to give us BETTER than our earthly fathers

Please....you are using the Word to promote untruth. To even suggest God is such a loving Father He would never want His children to suffer, is no better than saying God would never allow anyone to go to hell. This is the gospel of "Name it and Claim it" you're preaching....pure and simple. Man is such a self-involved creature, he believes his comfort is paramount to God. Have you ever considered the phrase, "according to God's will" when you list out the "promises" of God? Anything you ask in His name will be given you? That's the thinking of a spoiled child who wants what he wants when he wants it. A loving Father does not bow to the selfish dictates of his child no matter how often he's told he would if he loved him enough. Pick up a Cotton Mouth, and see if God doesn't teach you a lesson about tempting Him. Ask God for a fancy new car, and see if your old one doesn't give out the next day. Ask God to send you a chicken, and see if He doesn't send you out to get your own after you get hungry enough. :nag