Are the gifts from God or the anti christ

[glorydaz]

Well..you suggest wrong. The scripture has been quoted before on here, I took for granted everyone knew the rest of the verse. But I did notice you did not answer my questions..

So which manifestations of the Holy Spirit do you consider signs and wonders?
So you say tongues and healings have ceased? Can you show me a scripture where they have ceased?

So you say if someone claims these gifts and they are manifested in there lives..that they(gifts) are not of God but the anti christ?

I believe I did answer your question...in some detail.

This verse says these signs will follow them that believe....if you choose to pick out a couple of those signs as being for believers today, then you must take them all. Are we to tempt God by picking up serpents? Or drink deadly brews? Are you claiming that believers can lay hands on the sick and they will recover? If so, you are claiming we can perform miracles. That's a big claim and certainly not supported by reality. Therefore, this verse is intended to show the true signs that will follow those who are saved. We cast satan out when we're saved. We are healed of our transgressions by the work of the cross. We are protected by God, sealed with the Holy Spirit...and all things work to our good. These are all things that Christ did for us. As we place our faith in Him...and preach the message of salvation, these signs will follow ALL who believe.

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

Miracles are signs and wonders used by God for a particular time and for a particular reason.

The tongues spoken of in Acts, were a miraculous event. That was a miracle like the parting of the Red Sea, raising the dead, etc. Tongues, as a prayer language, will never really cease because mankind, of every religion, often has his own prayer language. Even the pagans share that trait.

God heals by His mercy...not as a gift of healing given to any man....we don't have "healers", in spite of the many claims. It is not a promise...it is God's grace and mercy in answer to our prayer. He does not always heal. He is God, and our entire life is in His hands.

 

[Mysteryman]

Quote glorydaz : "I'm glad you clarified that. I'm hardly a babe ...nor ignorant of what goes on in the Pentecostal churches. I have friends of that persuasion and I have been to many of their services. There were few, if any, unbelievers there...had there been, the people would appear to be off their rocker. BTW...Why didn't Jesus speak in tongues? We know He was filled with the Holy Spirit. "


Hi glorydaz

I am not here to judge you or where you have been in your life. I am merely pointing out the scripture, and what Paul taught the Church. Speaking in tongues is a sign to unbelievers. Those who do not believe to manifest in their lives. It is not that you have to manifest the gift of the Holy Spirit. It is that it is available to manifest.

As far as Jesus not speaking in tongues. He said that "these works shall you do, and greater works because I go unto the Father" -- Speaking in tongues is the greater works that Jesus was talking about. And Paul taught these greater works unto the Church.

One can not pick and choose what one thinks the scriptures tell us. One needs to recognize the scriptures for what they tell us. Paul was teaching the Church - to speak in tongues !

And he also encourage the church to speak in tongue more than they were. Especially in one's private prayer life. Because it builds one up spiritually. One thing Paul taught the church was to grow spiritually. Not suppress spiritual growth.

Bless

 

[glorydaz]

Hi glorydaz

I am not here to judge you or where you have been in your life. I am merely pointing out the scripture, and what Paul taught the Church. Speaking in tongues is a sign to unbelievers. Those who do not believe to manifest in their lives. It is not that you have to manifest the gift of the Holy Spirit. It is that it is available to manifest.

As far as Jesus not speaking in tongues. He said that "these works shall you do, and greater works because I go unto the Father" -- Speaking in tongues is the greater works that Jesus was talking about. And Paul taught these greater works unto the Church.

One can not pick and choose what one thinks the scriptures tell us. One needs to recognize the scriptures for what they tell us. Paul was teaching the Church - to speak in tongues !

And he also encourage the church to speak in tongue more than they were. Especially in one's private prayer life. Because it builds one up spiritually. One thing Paul taught the church was to grow spiritually. Not suppress spiritual growth.

Bless

Paul did not encourage them to speak in tongues more than they were. What in the world are you reading from? Paul asks, how is that you all have a psalm, prophecy, and speak with tongues....let it be by two or the most three.....and don't speak at all if there is no interpreter. He's attempting to limit not encourage. Now we have entire churches engaged...nothing done decently and in order. He was allowing these babes in Christ...not encouraging them. He was "encouraging" the gift of prophecy which was exhortation, encouragement, and comfort.

If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret. But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

No, tongues are not the "greater things" Jesus was speaking about. Take the verse in context and you'll see He was not speaking of any signs and wonders or miracles of any kind. He was speaking of the scope of preaching the message. You lift a verse out of context and claim it is applied to our doing miracles. No one did greater works than Jesus...not even the Apostles did as great, and we certainly will not do greater miracles, signs or wonders.

If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father.

Jesus is not speaking of miracles...or tongues. He is speaking of the sending of the Holy Spirit and the scope of the work that will be done as the Gospel message is preached. Jesus is NOT saying we will do greater miracles than He did but that our effect on people, our influence will be greater. Fulfilling the Great Commission IS the greater work Jesus spoke of. Their message was the death and resurrection of the savior, as they followed Jesus’ commission to preach the gospel, disciple and teach the people with the power of the Holy Spirit that He would send.

Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also..... Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.... 24He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me. 25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you. 26But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. 28Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I. 29And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe.

Paul in 1 Corinthians 12:29-30 asks the church “Are all workers of miracles? Do all have gifts of healings?†His answer is NO. They did not “feed the 5,000†or “still a storm†No apostle ever duplicated walking on water or had another group of people walk on water. No apostle ever relocated themselves from one place to another. No apostle resurrected himself. No apostle healed a person from a far away distance, they had to be there. Not even the apostles who were personally trained by Jesus were able to exhibit power over nature as Jesus did. They did not duplicate everything Jesus did. Nor will any of you. Such audacity.

 

[jasoncran]

yeah i noticed that one.

 

[Mysteryman]

Quote glorydaz : "No one did greater works than Jesus..." and you said this > "Jesus is NOT saying we will do greater miracles than He did"

Hi glorydaz

Lets put your words side by side with the words of Jesus , shall we ?

Your words - "No one did greater works than Jesus"

Jesus words - " The works that I do, shall ye do also, and greater works, because I go unto the Father"

 

[glorydaz]

Quote glorydaz : "No one did greater works than Jesus..." and you said this > "Jesus is NOT saying we will do greater miracles than He did"

Hi glorydaz

Lets put your words side by side with the words of Jesus , shall we ?

Your words - "No one did greater works than Jesus"

Jesus words - " The works that I do, shall ye do also, and greater works, because I go unto the Father"

No chance, of course, that you are misinterpreting what Jesus said? :biglaugh
I was using the words "works" as you are interpreting them...to get my point across.

It's quite obvious you are misinterpreting Jesus' words, since no man has ever even come close to the miracles that Jesus did. Therefore, Jesus is speaking of the scope of His message, not miracles as you assume.

Jesus could only be in one location at a time preaching His coming kingdom.
That is why He sent His church to preach the Gospel. We go forth to all nations preaching the Good News. You do notice, don't you, that Jesus was speaking of His "works"...not His miracles? Does that not tell you what Jesus is referring to in this passage of Scripture?

 

[Mysteryman]

Quote glorydaz : "No one did greater works than Jesus..." and you said this > "Jesus is NOT saying we will do greater miracles than He did"

Hi glorydaz

Lets put your words side by side with the words of Jesus , shall we ?

Your words - "No one did greater works than Jesus"

Jesus words - " The works that I do, shall ye do also, and greater works, because I go unto the Father"

No chance, of course, that you are misinterpreting what Jesus said? :biglaugh
I was using the words "works" as you are interpreting them...to get my point across.

It's quite obvious you are misinterpreting Jesus' words, since no man has ever even come close to the miracles that Jesus did. Therefore, Jesus is speaking of the scope of His message, not miracles as you assume.

Jesus could only be in one location at a time preaching His coming kingdom.
That is why He sent His church to preach the Gospel. We go forth to all nations preaching the Good News. You do notice, don't you, that Jesus was speaking of His "works"...not His miracles? Does that not tell you what Jesus is referring to in this passage of Scripture?

You shouldn't seperate his works and his miracles ! They are both the same . Jesus said , these works shall ye do, and greater works, because I go unto the Father. There is no way that we were going to teach scripture greater than Jesus. That is because it is Christ in us , which is the spirit of truth. Which reminds us of the things that Jesus has said. Like, "my sheep hear my voice" . We follow the shepherd, in that we also follow his instruction. That which he did, we will do also, and greater works. Not lessor works, but greater works.

 

[glorydaz]

No chance, of course, that you are misinterpreting what Jesus said? :biglaugh
I was using the words "works" as you are interpreting them...to get my point across.

It's quite obvious you are misinterpreting Jesus' words, since no man has ever even come close to the miracles that Jesus did. Therefore, Jesus is speaking of the scope of His message, not miracles as you assume.

Jesus could only be in one location at a time preaching His coming kingdom.
That is why He sent His church to preach the Gospel. We go forth to all nations preaching the Good News. You do notice, don't you, that Jesus was speaking of His "works"...not His miracles? Does that not tell you what Jesus is referring to in this passage of Scripture?

You shouldn't seperate his works and his miracles ! They are both the same . Jesus said , these works shall ye do, and greater works, because I go unto the Father. There is no way that we were going to teach scripture greater than Jesus. That is because it is Christ in us , which is the spirit of truth. Which reminds us of the things that Jesus has said. Like, "my sheep hear my voice" . We follow the shepherd, in that we also follow his instruction. That which he did, we will do also, and greater works. Not lessor works, but greater works.

Yes, we can separate His "works" from His miracles.
We won't do greater miracles than our Lord did...thus He is not talking about miracles here.

What John 14:12 does not say...it does NOT say greater signs, miracles, or wonders.

It does say "greater works". Jesus came to seek and save those who were lost...to "quicken" who He would to eternal life. The Gospel is the power of God unto salvation. By preaching that message to all the world, we do "greater works" than Jesus could do while here on this earth.

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

 

[Mysteryman]

No chance, of course, that you are misinterpreting what Jesus said? :biglaugh
I was using the words "works" as you are interpreting them...to get my point across.

It's quite obvious you are misinterpreting Jesus' words, since no man has ever even come close to the miracles that Jesus did. Therefore, Jesus is speaking of the scope of His message, not miracles as you assume.

Jesus could only be in one location at a time preaching His coming kingdom.
That is why He sent His church to preach the Gospel. We go forth to all nations preaching the Good News. You do notice, don't you, that Jesus was speaking of His "works"...not His miracles? Does that not tell you what Jesus is referring to in this passage of Scripture?

You shouldn't seperate his works and his miracles ! They are both the same . Jesus said , these works shall ye do, and greater works, because I go unto the Father. There is no way that we were going to teach scripture greater than Jesus. That is because it is Christ in us , which is the spirit of truth. Which reminds us of the things that Jesus has said. Like, "my sheep hear my voice" . We follow the shepherd, in that we also follow his instruction. That which he did, we will do also, and greater works. Not lessor works, but greater works.

Yes, we can separate His "works" from His miracles.
We won't do greater miracles than our Lord did...thus He is not talking about miracles here.

What John 14:12 does not say...it does NOT say greater signs, miracles, or wonders.

It does say "greater works". Jesus came to seek and save those who were lost...to "quicken" who He would to eternal life. The Gospel is the power of God unto salvation. By preaching that message to all the world, we do "greater works" than Jesus could do while here on this earth.

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

[quote="1 Corinthians 1:18":1sgq77ol] For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

[/quote:1sgq77ol]


And he came to heal the sick and set free those who were oppressed. Some with devil spirits and some with sickness. And we can see this in Acts 10:38. < And these also were the works of Jesus.

Paul made this comment in Romans 15:18 & 19

18 ) "For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ hath not wrought by me, to make the Gentiles obedient by word and deed"

19 ) "Through mighty signs and wonders by the power of the Spirit of God ; so that from Jerusalem and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ"

 

[glorydaz]

Yes, we can separate His "works" from His miracles.
We won't do greater miracles than our Lord did...thus He is not talking about miracles here.

What John 14:12 does not say...it does NOT say greater signs, miracles, or wonders.

It does say "greater works". Jesus came to seek and save those who were lost...to "quicken" who He would to eternal life. The Gospel is the power of God unto salvation. By preaching that message to all the world, we do "greater works" than Jesus could do while here on this earth.

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

[quote="1 Corinthians 1:18":2bbhcqs6] For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

And he came to heal the sick and set free those who were oppressed. Some with devil spirits and some with sickness. And we can see this in Acts 10:38. < And these also were the works of Jesus.

Paul made this comment in Romans 15:18 & 19

18 ) "For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ hath not wrought by me, to make the Gentiles obedient by word and deed"

19 ) "Through mighty signs and wonders by the power of the Spirit of God ; so that from Jerusalem and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ"[/quote:2bbhcqs6]

Yes, and what are we commanded to do? Preach unto the people...not his miracles, but His death and resurrection....faith in our Lord and Saviour that man should have remission of sins.

But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him. The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached; How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him. And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree: Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly; Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead. And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead. To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Yes, Paul was used of God, through many signs and wonders, to PREACH THE GOSPEL. The work is preaching the Gospel, not the signs and wonders that testified to Paul's being sent.

That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost. I have therefore whereof I may glory through Jesus Christ in those things which pertain to God. For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ hath not wrought by me, to make the Gentiles obedient, by word and deed, Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ. Yea, so have I strived to preach the gospel, not where Christ was named, lest I should build upon another man's foundation: But as it is written, To whom he was not spoken of, they shall see: and they that have not heard shall understand.

 

[Mysteryman]

Quote glorydaz : " The work is preaching the Gospel"

Hi glorydaz

This can be only a half truth, because of what Jesus said - "The works that I do, ye shall do, and greater works because I go unto the Father"

We can not preach the gospel greater than he did ! So this just can not be true ! So it has to be something different , that Jesus considered greater works.

Speaking in tongues and interpretation of tongues are two works greater than Jesus did.

 

[glorydaz]

Quote glorydaz : " The work is preaching the Gospel"

Hi glorydaz

This can be only a half truth, because of what Jesus said - "The works that I do, ye shall do, and greater works because I go unto the Father"

We can not preach the gospel greater than he did ! So this just can not be true ! So it has to be something different , that Jesus considered greater works.

Speaking in tongues and interpretation of tongues are two works greater than Jesus did.

Well, let's see....can something be done in greater quality? Quantity? Scope?

If you really believe speaking in tongues is a greater work than Jesus did...especially considering He didn't speak in tongues at all, then it stands to reason we drive cars better than Jesus did, too. :biglaugh

 

[Sinthesis]

Quote glorydaz : " The work is preaching the Gospel"

Hi glorydaz

This can be only a half truth, because of what Jesus said - "The works that I do, ye shall do, and greater works because I go unto the Father"

We can not preach the gospel greater than he did ! So this just can not be true ! So it has to be something different , that Jesus considered greater works.

Speaking in tongues and interpretation of tongues are two works greater than Jesus did.

Speaking and interpreting tongues are not works! They are a TOOL used by believers to build up the Church among unbelievers. Jesus, while incarnate, did not himself build the Church, but left that to his followers who managed to preach the Gospel to the entire earth and eventually established Christianity as the dominate faith worldwide.