Are the gifts from God or the anti christ

[jasoncran]

that's the problem with the grab and blab, theres no cross taken up daily!

the apostles, werent exactly rich.

 

[GodspromisesRyes]

Our cross is taken up by daily putting to death every lust and desire of the fleshly carnal man and walking led by the Spirit of God.- We shall suffer BUT we shall suffer from persecution that is what we are called to suffer for His names sake. To partake in with Christ.- We are not called to partake of sickness which came into the world with death because of sin. Never in the word of God do we see Christ Jesus sick, and now we are not our own but we are His body.

Now the problem with " name it and claim it" is that faith in the power and work of the cross is not mentioned in it and those who teach it that way have used it to get rich, not to have the delieverance of the cross for provisions healings sanctification etc...

But becasue those people use it wrongly does not mean there is no truth at all to it. what we confess is very important. When we walk by FAITH we confess what we believe and we walk like we believe.

It is not just because we speak a word that it comes to pass but because we BELIEVE in our hearts and CONFESS that we recieve it.

Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.



It is our God who said ASK and ye shall find - ASK in my name.Phl 4:6 Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God.

Either his word is true or it isnt. i am now dropping out of this conversation because the word of God is just being trampled by traditions of men.

 

[glorydaz]

Our cross is taken up by daily putting to death every lust and desire of the fleshly carnal man and walking led by the Spirit of God.- We shall suffer BUT we shall suffer from persecution that is what we are called to suffer for His names sake. To partake in with Christ.- We are not called to partake of sickness which came into the world with death because of sin. Never in the word of God do we see Christ Jesus sick, and now we are not our own but we are His body.

Now the problem with " name it and claim it" is that faith in the power and work of the cross is not mentioned in it and those who teach it that way have used it to get rich, not to have the delieverance of the cross for provisions healings sanctification etc...

But becasue those people use it wrongly does not mean there is no truth at all to it. what we confess is very important. When we walk by FAITH we confess what we believe and we walk like we believe.

It is not just because we speak a word that it comes to pass but because we BELIEVE in our hearts and CONFESS that we recieve it.

Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.



It is our God who said ASK and ye shall find - ASK in my name.Phl 4:6 Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God.

Either his word is true or it isnt. i am now dropping out of this conversation because the word of God is just being trampled by traditions of men.

You're dropping out because you are unable to support your claim that healing is a promise. The verses you put forth speak of righteousness and salvation. Jesus took our sins on the cross, and has never promised us freedom from all but persecution. He does not always see fit to heal our sickness and infirmities. The Word of God is not being trampled by that statement of fact.

"Never in the word of God do we see Christ Jesus sick." So now you're claiming we will never be sick, either? We are, indeed, His body....but we are still in the flesh, subject to the weakness of these corruptible bodies. It's a fact, whether you want to admit that or not. Confessing "wellness" does not bring it about. "Confessing" happiness does not bring it about. "Confessing" freedom from adversity does not bring it about. Claiming the sky is green does not make it so. Claiming to be sinless does not make it so, either.

 

[awaken]

signs and miracles and spiritual gifts were not limited to the apostles:
"Now Stephen, a man full of God's grace and power, did great wonders and miraculous signs among the people." (Acts 6:8)

"When the crowds heard Philip and saw the miraculous signs he did, they all paid close attention to what he said. With shrieks, evil spirits came out of many, and many paralytics and cripples were healed." (Acts 8:6-7)

"During this time some prophets came down from Jerusalem to Antioch. One of them, named Agabus, stood up and through the Spirit predicted that a severe famine would spread over the entire Roman world. (This happened during the reign of Claudius.)" (Acts 11:27-28)

"Leaving the next day, we reached Caesarea and stayed at the house of Philip the evangelist, one of the Seven. He had four unmarried daughters who prophesied." (Acts 21:8-9)
Some people believe that the miraculous gifts of the Spirit were given to the apostles in order to confirm their authority, yet all of these other people (above) had miraculous gifts as well. And Paul specifically pointed out that all of the gifts of the Spirit were present in the church at Corinth (1 Corinthians 1:7).

Not only did these people (who were not apostles) prophesy and do amazing signs and wonders through the Holy Spirit, but at Pentecost the apostle Peter said that according to God's Word all Christians have the opportunity to do similar things:
"Then Peter stood up with the Eleven, raised his voice and addressed the crowd: ... "'In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams. Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days, and they will prophesy."" (Acts 2:14-18)

 

[Mysteryman]

signs and miracles and spiritual gifts were not limited to the apostles:
"Now Stephen, a man full of God's grace and power, did great wonders and miraculous signs among the people." (Acts 6:8)

"When the crowds heard Philip and saw the miraculous signs he did, they all paid close attention to what he said. With shrieks, evil spirits came out of many, and many paralytics and cripples were healed." (Acts 8:6-7)

"During this time some prophets came down from Jerusalem to Antioch. One of them, named Agabus, stood up and through the Spirit predicted that a severe famine would spread over the entire Roman world. (This happened during the reign of Claudius.)" (Acts 11:27-28)

"Leaving the next day, we reached Caesarea and stayed at the house of Philip the evangelist, one of the Seven. He had four unmarried daughters who prophesied." (Acts 21:8-9)
Some people believe that the miraculous gifts of the Spirit were given to the apostles in order to confirm their authority, yet all of these other people (above) had miraculous gifts as well. And Paul specifically pointed out that all of the gifts of the Spirit were present in the church at Corinth (1 Corinthians 1:7).

Not only did these people (who were not apostles) prophesy and do amazing signs and wonders through the Holy Spirit, but at Pentecost the apostle Peter said that according to God's Word all Christians have the opportunity to do similar things:
"Then Peter stood up with the Eleven, raised his voice and addressed the crowd: ... "'In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams. Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days, and they will prophesy."" (Acts 2:14-18)

Hi awaken

Well said !

 

[glorydaz]

signs and miracles and spiritual gifts were not limited to the apostles:
"Now Stephen, a man full of God's grace and power, did great wonders and miraculous signs among the people." (Acts 6:8)

"When the crowds heard Philip and saw the miraculous signs he did, they all paid close attention to what he said. With shrieks, evil spirits came out of many, and many paralytics and cripples were healed." (Acts 8:6-7)

"During this time some prophets came down from Jerusalem to Antioch. One of them, named Agabus, stood up and through the Spirit predicted that a severe famine would spread over the entire Roman world. (This happened during the reign of Claudius.)" (Acts 11:27-28)

"Leaving the next day, we reached Caesarea and stayed at the house of Philip the evangelist, one of the Seven. He had four unmarried daughters who prophesied." (Acts 21:8-9)
Some people believe that the miraculous gifts of the Spirit were given to the apostles in order to confirm their authority, yet all of these other people (above) had miraculous gifts as well. And Paul specifically pointed out that all of the gifts of the Spirit were present in the church at Corinth (1 Corinthians 1:7).

Not only did these people (who were not apostles) prophesy and do amazing signs and wonders through the Holy Spirit, but at Pentecost the apostle Peter said that according to God's Word all Christians have the opportunity to do similar things:
"Then Peter stood up with the Eleven, raised his voice and addressed the crowd: ... "'In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams. Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days, and they will prophesy."" (Acts 2:14-18)

Philip and Stephen were specifically appointed by the Apostles...they were disciples who had walked with Jesus. They were among those who had seen with their own eyes.

Wherefore, brethren, look ye out among you seven men of honest report, full of the Holy Ghost and wisdom, whom we may appoint over this business. But we will give ourselves continually to prayer, and to the ministry of the word. And the saying pleased the whole multitude: and they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Ghost, and Philip, and Prochorus, and Nicanor, and Timon, and Parmenas, and Nicolas a proselyte of Antioch: Whom they set before the apostles: and when they had prayed, they laid their hands on them.

The gift of prophecy is given for the edification of the body...such as wisdom, knowledge, and discernment. The gifts of the Spirit were present in Corinth and they're present today...just not the signs and wonders that were displayed by the disciples of Christ. The gifts of the Holy Spirit are given to all believers for the edification of the body...but signs and wonders are not. They were given to specific men for a specific reason. There is a difference between the gifts and signs and wonders.

But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort. He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

 

[awaken]

signs and miracles and spiritual gifts were not limited to the apostles:
"Now Stephen, a man full of God's grace and power, did great wonders and miraculous signs among the people." (Acts 6:8)

"When the crowds heard Philip and saw the miraculous signs he did, they all paid close attention to what he said. With shrieks, evil spirits came out of many, and many paralytics and cripples were healed." (Acts 8:6-7)

"During this time some prophets came down from Jerusalem to Antioch. One of them, named Agabus, stood up and through the Spirit predicted that a severe famine would spread over the entire Roman world. (This happened during the reign of Claudius.)" (Acts 11:27-28)

"Leaving the next day, we reached Caesarea and stayed at the house of Philip the evangelist, one of the Seven. He had four unmarried daughters who prophesied." (Acts 21:8-9)
Some people believe that the miraculous gifts of the Spirit were given to the apostles in order to confirm their authority, yet all of these other people (above) had miraculous gifts as well. And Paul specifically pointed out that all of the gifts of the Spirit were present in the church at Corinth (1 Corinthians 1:7).

Not only did these people (who were not apostles) prophesy and do amazing signs and wonders through the Holy Spirit, but at Pentecost the apostle Peter said that according to God's Word all Christians have the opportunity to do similar things:
"Then Peter stood up with the Eleven, raised his voice and addressed the crowd: ... "'In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams. Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days, and they will prophesy."" (Acts 2:14-18)

Philip and Stephen were specifically appointed by the Apostles...they were disciples who had walked with Jesus. They were among those who had seen with their own eyes.

Wherefore, brethren, look ye out among you seven men of honest report, full of the Holy Ghost and wisdom, whom we may appoint over this business. But we will give ourselves continually to prayer, and to the ministry of the word. And the saying pleased the whole multitude: and they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Ghost, and Philip, and Prochorus, and Nicanor, and Timon, and Parmenas, and Nicolas a proselyte of Antioch: Whom they set before the apostles: and when they had prayed, they laid their hands on them.

The gift of prophecy is given for the edification of the body...such as wisdom, knowledge, and discernment. The gifts of the Spirit were present in Corinth and they're present today...just not the signs and wonders that were displayed by the disciples of Christ. The gifts of the Holy Spirit are given to all believers for the edification of the body...but signs and wonders are not. They were given to specific men for a specific reason. There is a difference between the gifts and signs and wonders.
[quote="1 Cor. 14:3-4":2l0y0e64]But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort. He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

[/quote:2l0y0e64]

So which manifestations of the Holy Spirit do you consider signs and wonders?

 

[picklesbiz]

Obviously the ones that are not for today, Or perhaps the ones that are not of evidence in his life? Yeah I know that's a cheap shot.

 

[glorydaz]

Obviously the ones that are not for today, Or perhaps the ones that are not of evidence in his life? Yeah I know that's a cheap shot.

Cheap or not, I'll answer. Signs and wonders are miracles that go against God's natural laws.
Parting the Red Sea, manna from heaven, raising the dead, healing the blind and the lame, predicting the future, speaking in unknown languages....

Now I know many will take this verse in Mark and claim some or all are true for the church today. If that were the case then all believers would be able to do all these things. The verse says these signs shall follow all who believe, and they obviously don't. I defy anyone to drink any "deadly thing" and not die.

And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

So what is this verse talking about? It's talking about preaching the gospel to every creature.
What signs do follow all believers?

We preach freedom from satan's bondage... deliverance from the power of darkness.

Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

As pertaining to preaching the Gospel, new tongues can either mean the many languages that will be spoken as the Word goes out to all nations, or it could mean our tongues confess Jesus as Lord, and out of the abundance of our heart the mouth speaks.

For he that will love life, and see good days, let him refrain his tongue from evil, and his lips that they speak no guile:

The Holy Spirit gives us the words to speak as the Gospel goes forth.

So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

The Lord GOD hath given me the tongue of the learned, that I should know how to speak a word in season to him that is weary: he wakeneth morning by morning, he wakeneth mine ear to hear as the learned.

Are we to actually take up serpents? I say no. But we are to discern false prophets among us.

Therefore, behold, I am against the prophets, saith the LORD, that steal my words every one from his neighbour. Behold, I am against the prophets, saith the LORD, that use their tongues, and say, He saith. Behold, I am against them that prophesy false dreams, saith the LORD, and do tell them, and cause my people to err by their lies, and by their lightness; yet I sent them not, nor commanded them: therefore they shall not profit this people at all, saith the LORD.

We have been delivered from the bondage satan had over us.

Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

We partake of the living water...we are immune from the deadly poison of the deceivers...being sealed by the Holy Spirit.

But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.

And we preach repentance to those who are "sick" with sin....

But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick. But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

All these are the signs that will follow all who believe. As we preach the Gospel, it's the faith of Jesus that protects us and enables us to spread the Good News of salvation.

 

[awaken]

So you say tongues and healings have ceased? Can you show me a scripture where they have ceased?

So you say if someone claims these gifts and they are manifested in there lives..that they(gifts) are not of God but the anti christ?

God specifically said that He will pour out His Spirit on all types of people, and notice that He did not put any time limit on this. God did not say "I will pour out my Spirit for 60 or 70 years until the last apostle has died." Instead, God said that He will pour out His Spirit on people regardless of gender, age, social position, or time period.

Not only was there no time limit placed on the gifts of the Spirit (except that when we are transformed at His coming then we will no longer need certain gifts), but neither Jesus nor the apostles ever took back, canceled, or in any way softened any of the things that they said about spiritual gifts. Take a close look at what they said:
"But eagerly desire the greater gifts." (1 Corinthians 12:31)

"Follow the way of love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially the gift of prophecy." (1 Corinthians 14:1)

"I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy." (1 Corinthians 14:5)

"Since you are eager to have spiritual gifts, try to excel in gifts that build up the church." (1 Corinthians 14:12)

"Therefore, my brothers, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues." (1 Corinthians 14:39)

"Do not quench the Spirit." (1 Thessalonians 5:19, New King James Version)

"do not treat prophecies with contempt." (1 Thessalonians 5:20)

Not a single one of these statements was ever taken back or canceled! Now notice Jesus' final words in the Gospel of Mark 16:17-18.

Just before Jesus left the earth He said that "those who believe" will cast out demons, speak in tongues, see miraculous healings through the laying-on of hands, and so on. Neither Jesus nor the writers of Scripture ever canceled this promise, so this promise is still in effect!

 

[glorydaz]

Perhaps we need to do a study on 1 Cor., especially chapters 12-14. It's easy to take a verse here and a verse there and form a doctrine on such, it's quite another to understand what Paul is saying to the church in Corinth. Paul is addressing the carnalities that abound in Corinth. They were a perfect picture of the American church...rife with divisions, worldly wisdom, and scandals. He's preaching the milk of the Word to those who are filled with pride and are displaying the fruit of such. They all think they are apostles and prophets, able to do the many signs and wonders the Apostles did. This is why Paul is rebuking them on their carnal ways.

The Apostles and prophets were the foundation....they were those who had the gifts listed as such in Paul's message to the church in Corinth. Paul asks, "Are all Apostles, are all prophets?" Of course not, but they were still there in the early church...the foundation.

And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

The gift of prophecy was very important in that it met a real and unique need of the early church. They were at a loss without any of this new revelation yet recorded and available, so God gave His word "part by part" through these gifted men until that written Word was complete.

For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

The Apostles had their signs and wonders to prove who they were. The prophets had no such signs, which is why there were those who were given the gift of discerning of spirits. An example of this is given in I Corinthians 14:29 where Paul commands that after the prophets speak, "let the other judge." The message of the true prophet was absolute, but it had to be established that it was in fact from God.

Before going to Corinth, Paul addressed the church in Rome...he gives quite a list here of the gifts the body is to be exhibiting.

For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office: So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another. Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith; Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching; Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that sheweth mercy, with cheerfulness. Let love be without dissimulation. Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good. Be kindly affectioned one to another with brotherly love; in honour preferring one another; Not slothful in business; fervent in spirit; serving the Lord; Rejoicing in hope; patient in tribulation; continuing instant in prayer; Distributing to the necessity of saints; given to hospitality. Bless them which persecute you: bless, and curse not. Rejoice with them that do rejoice, and weep with them that weep. Be of the same mind one toward another. Mind not high things, but condescend to men of low estate. Be not wise in your own conceits.

 

[glorydaz]

Just before Jesus left the earth He said that "those who believe" will cast out demons, speak in tongues, see miraculous healings through the laying-on of hands, and so on. Neither Jesus nor the writers of Scripture ever canceled this promise, so this promise is still in effect!

I notice you left the rest of that verse as "and so on". Why is that? I suggest it's because you only like the part you can claim is for the church today. The scripture must be taken as a whole, and understood rightly. Jesus is speaking of preaching the Gospel...the signs that will follow are the truths of the Gospel message that will be displayed in the lives of the believers. We are no longer under the bondage of Satan because Jesus defeated him at the cross. We do not speak with the wisdom of men, but by the Holy Spirit. We are healed from our transgressions. We are sealed by the Holy Spirit and partake of the living water. All things work together for our good because we love God. Those are the signs that follow all believers.

 

[Mysteryman]

Quote glorydaz: "Perhaps we need to do a study on 1 Cor., especially chapters 12-14. It's easy to take a verse here and a verse there and form a doctrine on such, it's quite another to understand what Paul is saying to the church in Corinth. Paul is addressing the carnalities that abound in Corinth."

Hi glorydaz

Yes, it is easy to take scripture out of context with the rest of the seven church epistles. Which is the case here !

Paul's ministry was unto the Church, but especailly unto the gentile part of the church. This was his ministry in specific. Peter didn't go and teach to the Corinthians. Neither did John. At least not while Paul was around.

All one has to do is read the beginning of I Corinth. and it is clear that he is not addressing carnalites. He is addressing the church of God, called to be saints of those who call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord.

Paul saw them as babes in Christ, because they were not mature in the scriptures. This is the reason Paul continued on in his teaching the church in Corinth.

I Corinth. chapters 12 thru 14 are spiritual in nature, as well as understanding from a babes perspective, so that they might understand. However, Paul never, ever told them that the 9 manifestations have ceased ! In fact, the opposite is true. And Paul continued to teach them so that they would not be ignorant. Which seems to be the case within our own day and time. I can only imagine what the ministers are teaching today in which they tell their congregation that the 9 manifestations have ceased, which is an untruth !

The reason Paul states that I would not have you ignorant brethren. Is because ignorance destroys . God has repeatedly stated, --- "My people are destroyed because of a lack of knowledge"

Way too many church sects today have a lack of knowledge, and then go about teaching a lack of knowledge, because they themselves lack knowledge. We then end up with doctorines of men, instead of the true spiritual understanding that God had intended the church to be enlightened with. I Corinth. 10:1

If you are going to talk about I Corinth. chapters 12 - 14, if I were you, I would include chapter 11 as well. Chapter 11 sets up chapters 12 thru 14. For instance, what it states in I Corinth. 11:17 talking about coming together. How many come together for the worse ? I would bet, if I were a betting man, that most churches today come together for the better and not the worse !

Let me ask this, how many churches do you believe are doing a literal Lord's supper ? My guess would be about 98 % of them are. Which shows that ignorance is running rampant throughout the Church as a whole.

 

[glorydaz]

Paul was speaking to the carnality the believers were displaying. If you don't think Christians can be carnal, then what do you call divisions, the wisdom of men, and scandal? Paul was admonishing them not to consider themselves more highly than they ought.

He is reminding them we are called unto the fellowship of Jesus...there is no place for divisions in the body.

God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord. Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.

The Greeks were notorious for their worldly wisdom...just as the Jews were for requiring "signs".

For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:

They are yet carnal...according to Paul.

And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

He addresses the scandal they allow in their midst...

And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.

Paul goes on to admonishing and instructing them about suing a brother, marriage, judging one another on eating and drinking and partaking of the Lord's supper in an unworthy manner. This was quite a group of believers in need of all Paul's admonitions.

For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.

Paul lists out the importance of the different gifts. Apostles and prophets are first...they are the foundation. Paul is teaching, and he performed some miracles which proved his preaching came from God. Healings were done by the disciples, diversities of tongues were displayed at Pentecost. Paul does not say all those gifts are available to the entire body...he makes that clear by asking, "Are all..???.." There were many among these carnal Christians who believed they could do all that the Apostles did, and Paul is pointing them to a "more excellent" way.

Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular. And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

Now we get to the heart of the matter....We're to put off the need for signs (like the Jews), and put off the worldly wisdom which leads to being puffed up (like the Greeks), and show forth love. When all the show and glitter passes away, the perfect Word of God will come. We go on to the meat of the Word.

Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil; Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth; Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things. Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

Here we see what Paul is referring to by the "gift of prophesy"...it is edification, exhortation, and comfort. This is the gift that is available to the body of Christ. It does not contain the predictive ability given the prophets of old...who were a part of the foundation, as were the Apostles.

Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy. For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries. But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort. He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

Then Paul goes on to tell them tongues were a sign for the unbelievers. That seems pretty self-explanatory for any who care to hear what Paul makes quite clear.

 

[Mysteryman]

Paul was speaking to the carnality the believers were displaying. If you don't think Christians can be carnal, then what do you call divisions, the wisdom of men, and scandal? Paul was admonishing them not to consider themselves more highly than they ought.

He is reminding them we are called unto the fellowship of Jesus...there is no place for divisions in the body.

God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord. Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.

The Greeks were notorious for their worldly wisdom...just as the Jews were for requiring "signs".
[quote="1 Cor. 1:19-22":4cki8p4j]For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:

They are yet carnal...according to Paul.

And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

He addresses the scandal they allow in their midst...

And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.

Paul goes on to admonishing and instructing them about suing a brother, marriage, judging one another on eating and drinking and partaking of the Lord's supper in an unworthy manner. This was quite a group of believers in need of all Paul's admonitions.

For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.

Paul lists out the importance of the different gifts. Apostles and prophets are first...they are the foundation. Paul is teaching, and he performed some miracles which proved his preaching came from God. Healings were done by the disciples, diversities of tongues were displayed at Pentecost. Paul does not say all those gifts are available to the entire body...he makes that clear by asking, "Are all..???.." There were many among these carnal Christians who believed they could do all that the Apostles did, and Paul is pointing them to a "more excellent" way.

Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular. And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

Now we get to the heart of the matter....We're to put off the need for signs (like the Jews), and put off the worldly wisdom which leads to being puffed up (like the Greeks), and show forth love. When all the show and glitter passes away, the perfect Word of God will come. We go on to the meat of the Word.

Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil; Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth; Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things. Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

Here we see what Paul is referring to by the "gift of prophesy"...it is edification, exhortation, and comfort. This is the gift that is available to the body of Christ. It does not contain the predictive ability given the prophets of old...who were a part of the foundation, as were the Apostles.

Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy. For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries. But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort. He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

Then Paul goes on to tell them tongues were a sign for the unbelievers. That seems pretty self-explanatory for any who care to hear what Paul makes quite clear.[/quote:4cki8p4j]


Hi glorydaz

Yes, it is quit clear, that one that speaks in tongues is for a sign for unbelievers. Those who do not speak in tongues is the unbeliever. Yes, it is quit clear.

 

[glorydaz]

Hi glorydaz

Yes, it is quit clear, that one that speaks in tongues is for a sign for unbelievers. Those who do not speak in tongues is the unbeliever. Yes, it is quit clear.

Oh dear...and this is why we're to beware of false prophets. :yes

You speak as a child...there are many members in the body of Christ. I do not refuse you the right to speak in tongues. If you require such signs that's your business. To claim someone isn't a believer who doesn't...who desires the better gifts, is proving you need to move on to the better things Paul speaks of.

So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air. There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification. Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me. Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.

 

[Mysteryman]

Hi glorydaz

Yes, it is quit clear, that one that speaks in tongues is for a sign for unbelievers. Those who do not speak in tongues is the unbeliever. Yes, it is quit clear.

Oh dear...and this is why we're to beware of false prophets. :yes

You speak as a child...there are many members in the body of Christ. I do not refuse you the right to speak in tongues. If you require such signs that's your business. To claim someone isn't a believer who doesn't...who desires the better gifts, is proving you need to move on to the better things Paul speaks of.

So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air. There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification. Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me. Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.

Hi glorydaz

It is not that "i" require a sign. It is the unbeliever that requires a sign. God has made this clear in scripture, that one who believes to speak in tongues, is one who is a believer in speaking in tongues. Not that you or anyone else is not a believer per se'. I am sure you believe in Jesus Christ, that is not the issue here.

There was a time in my life, that I was raised in just a church atmosphere where speaking in tongues was not even mentioned. In fact, I didn't even know that it was available. So one could have called me an unbeliever in that sense. I believed in Jesus Christ, but had no idea that the nine manifestations were even available. Once I came out of that denomination, which walked in their ignorance of the manifestations. I finally came to a place where believing in the nine manifestations were taught and manifested . I have actually matured spiritually because of this. I have left what one could call being a babe in the scriptures. I am no longer ignorant of the purpose and total meaning behind operating the nine manifestations

Bless

 

[glorydaz]

I see I've made a double post...

 

[awaken]

Just before Jesus left the earth He said that "those who believe" will cast out demons, speak in tongues, see miraculous healings through the laying-on of hands, and so on. Neither Jesus nor the writers of Scripture ever canceled this promise, so this promise is still in effect!

I notice you left the rest of that verse as "and so on". Why is that? I suggest it's because you only like the part you can claim is for the church today. The scripture must be taken as a whole, and understood rightly. Jesus is speaking of preaching the Gospel...the signs that will follow are the truths of the Gospel message that will be displayed in the lives of the believers. We are no longer under the bondage of Satan because Jesus defeated him at the cross. We do not speak with the wisdom of men, but by the Holy Spirit. We are healed from our transgressions. We are sealed by the Holy Spirit and partake of the living water. All things work together for our good because we love God. Those are the signs that follow all believers.

Well..you suggest wrong. The scripture has been quoted before on here, I took for granted everyone knew the rest of the verse. But I did notice you did not answer my questions..

So which manifestations of the Holy Spirit do you consider signs and wonders?
So you say tongues and healings have ceased? Can you show me a scripture where they have ceased?

So you say if someone claims these gifts and they are manifested in there lives..that they(gifts) are not of God but the anti christ?

 

[glorydaz]

Hi glorydaz

It is not that "i" require a sign. It is the unbeliever that requires a sign. God has made this clear in scripture, that one who believes to speak in tongues, is one who is a believer in speaking in tongues. Not that you or anyone else is not a believer per se'. I am sure you believe in Jesus Christ, that is not the issue here.

There was a time in my life, that I was raised in just a church atmosphere where speaking in tongues was not even mentioned. In fact, I didn't even know that it was available. So one could have called me an unbeliever in that sense. I believed in Jesus Christ, but had no idea that the nine manifestations were even available. Once I came out of that denomination, which walked in their ignorance of the manifestations. I finally came to a place where believing in the nine manifestations were taught and manifested . I have actually matured spiritually because of this. I have left what one could call being a babe in the scriptures. I am no longer ignorant of the purpose and total meaning behind operating the nine manifestations

Bless

I'm glad you clarified that. I'm hardly a babe ...nor ignorant of what goes on in the Pentecostal churches. I have friends of that persuasion and I have been to many of their services. There were few, if any, unbelievers there...had there been, the people would appear to be off their rocker. BTW...Why didn't Jesus speak in tongues? We know He was filled with the Holy Spirit.

Paul is trying to get the people to control themselves...."How is it then, ...everyone of you has a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation????" He has to set a limit on their exuberance. Keep these manifestations down to a dull roar...... They all considered themselves as great as the Apostles and prophets upon whom the church was founded. This is the same problem we see today in the Pentecostal churches. He doesn't forbid them to speak in tongues, but he certainly is trying to put a damper on it.

If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad? But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all: And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth. How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying. If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret. But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

Paul explains that he who speaks edification, exhortation, and comfort is greater than he who speaks in tongues...unless there is interpretation, the church is not edified.

For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries. But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort. He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church. I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

You notice these are all sign gifts...even the "teacher" mentioned here were given to the early church because they did not have the full revelation of the Word of God. It was in part...therefore, they required these miraculous expressions of the Spirit. Not all were Apostles, with the signs that followed them, or prophets, nor did all speak with tongues. We know Jews from everywhere heard the Word in their own languages at Pentecost...which is obviously different from what you practice.

Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

It seems the charismatic gifts become of utmost importance to those of that persuasion. What of the fruit of the Spirit? What of the gifts of the Spirit that actually have a purpose for the body?

And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:

All the gifts of the Spirit are totally dependant on the fruit...if there is no fruit, the gifts are merely manifestations of man's pride. Men claiming they can perform the same miracles the Apostles did...men claiming they can walk on water like Jesus did...men claiming they can restore sight to the blind and make the lame to walk...men claiming they can move mountains...men claiming they can dream dreams and see visions. Men claiming the foundation was not laid, and the Word of God is not the latest revelation. Yes, we see many great claims by men...those in Corinth were not mature in the Lord. Paul had to speak to them as babes, because they were.