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Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
Bible Study Are the Ten Commandments valid for Christians today?
- Thread starter Mungo
- Start date
Randy, I'm not missing the Lord's main point. I think I even posted John 15:5 in our discussion, if not, I'm stating it now. We can DO NOTHING without the help of the Holy Spirit, without our being IN HIM.
Everything you've said above is correct and I have no quarrel with you, as I've said. And I know you do not feel free to sin and still be saved (as some seem to believe).
I was just saying that there IS a difference between justification and sanctification. You say that we are required to follow the commandments and this, of course, is true. So, you do KNOW the difference between J and S but we're just speaking past each other as to how to explain the difference.
You ended your post with "by their fruit, you will know them"...this is sanctification. It causes fruit...it causes us to be different and by this we can be known.
Paul states this in Romans 6:19 when he tells us to present ourselves as slaves to righteousness resulting in sanctification....and this we can only do IN HIM.
I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification.
1 Thessalonians 4:1-7 speaks about this sanctification of man and how it is a cooperative effort made consciously by man. Paul gives instruction on how to be sanctified, how to please God even more (since sanctification is progressive) and how it is the will of God that we be sanctified...for God has called us to sanctification.
1Finally then, brethren, we request and exhort you in the Lord Jesus, that as you received from us instruction as to how you ought to walk and please God (just as you actually do walk), that you excel still more.
2For you know what commandments we gave you by the authority of the Lord Jesus.
3For this is the will of God, your sanctification; that is, that you abstain from sexual immorality;
4that each of you know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor,
5not in lustful passion, like the Gentiles who do not know God;
6and that no man transgress and defraud his brother in the matter because the Lord is the avenger in all these things, just as we also told you before and solemnly warned you.
7For God has not called us for the purpose of impurity, but in sanctification.
To end:
Justification is by God alone.
Sanctification requires man's cooperation - which is accomplished IN HIM....without HIM we can do nothing.
(this is all I'm saying...I have no disagreement with you).
And as to the original question:
YES...to not obey God's commandments leads to death....
emotional death in this life.
spiritual death in this life.
Eternal death in the life to come.
I liked your post and agree with you in most everything you stated.
However, justification and sanctification are obtained in the same way.
Through our obedience.
And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.” Galatians 3:8
Abraham is the pattern.
JLB
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Hi J,,,,
Justification is not obtained by obedience...
It is obtained only by faith in God...our turning to Him, and then He justifies us, which is a legal term meaning that it is as if we had never sinned and we are welcomed into the Kingdom of God here on earth. We become a part of the Church (capital C).
Of course, you may mean something re obedience which isn't coming to mind.
We cannot be saved by obedience BEFORE we are born again. To not be born again is to be lost and no amount of obeying God is sufficient unless we believe in Him and come to Him by faith. This would be Ephesians 2:8 --- we are saved by God's grace through our faith in Him.
The problem, as I see it, is that sanctification commences immediately after justification and this could confuse the two terms. Once we ARE saved...THEN obedience becomes necessary since we are not a part of God's family and He has always demanded obedience.
I'll go to Romans 6:16 again, as before:
When we present ourselves to God we are justified.
When we obey Him, it results in righteousness --- we are right with God when we obey Him -- AFTER being born again.
What say you?
Both sanctification and justification by an act of God
But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.'
For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified.
Cooperation as in those who listen and learn from the Father go to Him and its His Fathers will that He raise them up on the last day.
And we also believe in a resurrection of the unrighteous to judgment so we strive to keep a clear conscience before God.
While you can note as truth those who belong to Jesus are those who keep His commands and hold to the testimony of Jesus our sanctification and justification is a act of God and is received by faith in Jesus.
Keeping His commands is a sign that you belong to Jesus.
Its called "faith expressing itself through love"
God sanctified the food.
Then a voice told him, "Get up, Peter. Kill and eat."
Just as God sanctified us.
Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation— if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel.
Yes by faith.
Which automatically means through our obedience; the obedience of faith.
Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?James 2:21
Abraham was justified by his “work” or “action” of obedience in response to God’s command to offer his son Isaac on the altar.
Abraham received faith (and grace) from God when God spoke to him to offer his son.
Abraham was justified when he obeyed obeyed the word from God.
JLB
Exactly!
This turning to Him in submission to Him as Lord, is in direct response to the command to repent.
This act of obedience to the gospel command is how we are saved; born again, justified by faith.
JLB
Abraham "believed" God and it was credited to Him as righteousness. He left His home and headed to what is now referred to as "promised" land. Hence the law introduced later does not set aside Gods previous promise to Abraham.
This would be by a sincere faith in Jesus.
Cooperation as in those who listen and learn from the Father go to Him and its His Fathers will that He raise them up on the last day.
We receive from Jesus by faith. Otherwise why would we call upon Him for salvation?
We receive the Spirit by faith.
Acts 2
Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear.
Rehab the prostitute hid the spies because she believed God. It was credited to her as righteousness.
Hebrews 11 "by faith..."
Its by faith that we call on the Lord Jesus for our salvation. We believe God.
Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.
I received true sanctification by my faith in Jesus.
For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified.
We are made Holy and are blameless before God through our sincere faith in Jesus and the righteous will live by faith.
This would be by a sincere faith in Jesus.
Cooperation as in those who listen and learn from the Father go to Him and its His Fathers will that He raise them up on the last day.
We receive from Jesus by faith. Otherwise why would we call upon Him for salvation?
We receive the Spirit by faith.
Acts 2
Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear.
Rehab the prostitute hid the spies because she believed God. It was credited to her as righteousness.
Hebrews 11 "by faith..."
Its by faith that we call on the Lord Jesus for our salvation. We believe God.
Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.
I received true sanctification by my faith in Jesus.
For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified.
We are made Holy and are blameless before God through our sincere faith in Jesus and the righteous will live by faith.
To sum up our conversation and to address the OP, I will ask you...
Do you believe the 10 Commandments are valid for Christians today?
JLB
This is both for you and Randy ...
I'll be repeating from now on so I think I'll stop posting on this.
I sometimes wonder why others don't understand Justification and Sanctification as I've learned and as is taught in Christian churches and by Christian scholars and is verified by the bible as I like to be a Barean.
Abraham was justified by faith when He believed in God and left his home.
Every other action he took was in cooperation with God's commands: God commanded and Abraham obeyed. This is sanctification: Being set apart for God's works. Which of course includes our obedience.
I think there's not much more to say on this.
I do agree that the 10 commandments are for everyone to obey...everyone that is born again; and some of them are even accepted by the non-saved because they are part of the Natural Law which every man believes, even though he may not believe the One that wrote these laws.
Jesus
You know the commandments: 'You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, you shall not defraud, honor your father and mother.'"
I don't keep a day of rest as in written in the law. Even meals were prepared in advance.
Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.
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Oh berean
But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God
I remain in Jesus's love by obeying His commands. I am in Him by faith.
I agree.
Jesus instructed us to remain “in Him”.
Here’s how -
Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24
Concerning the Sabbath, I agree with you also, since it began as a day for man to rest, and points us to the rest to come, when Jesus returns, and we reign with Him for a thousand years.
JLB
Right.
Sinning is different from continuing to sin.
We all sin at one time or another...no one is perfect.
But 1 John 3 is referring to those who LIVE IN SIN and continue to do so with no regard to God's commandments.
You might want to reread a couple of times what "John" wrote.
Randy
You don't think John wrote John?
Why the quotation marks?
Why should I reread it a couple of times?
If John The Baptist wrote the book of John, then what did John Da Baptist write?
The Apostle John wrote the Book of John.
John the Baptist had been be-headed before most of what took place in the book of John.
JLB