What's new
By:
Filters
Christian Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

Are unbelievers resurrected?

T

theWind

Member
I would really like to discuss this with any level-headed DIY-thinkers out there. This is not a declaration of fact, just a working theory.

I have presented this on one, or more, other sites and was swarmed with negativity and vitriol. Please consider my presentation sincerely and share your thoughts. If this is a heated topic for you, maybe it's not the thread for you to take part in. Please use your own discretion there.

This realization has become more and more apparent to me in recent years. It is not popular, of course, and will not be immediately embraced by all, or any, but I can put together a pretty sound case using Scripture and I will make this OP as terse as possible so the discussion can ensue.

First of all, I believe there is only one resurrection. I will remind repeatedly that this is not a Pre-Mil/Millennium after Christ thread. Please consider the scenario that I present based on Scripture.

The concept that I am proposing is that Christians, those who have been quickened and/or given the Holy Spirit, are the only people that Jesus resurrects at His coming. There are multiple reasons for my perspective on this, not the least of which is that Jesus tells us that it is only His sheep that are capable of hearing His voice. When He returns to gather His people in the resurrection, He gives a shout and those who are in the graves who can hear His voice will rise to Him. Those who cannot hear the voice of The Shepherd, will not rise at all. They are destroyed by death and will never be again.

John 5:28 uses the word 'all', but there are other verses/passages that use 'all' as well and are only referring to 'all' of a specific category of people - just as forever only refers to until the end of time in some passages. The following verse is the real shocker if this theory is correct. John 5:29 tells us that those who have done evil will be resurrected to damnation. On its face, this seems impossible that this would be believers, but Matt. 7:21-23 reveals a similar scenario. In that passage, those believers are rejected for being workers of iniquity (sin).

Now, let's look at what Jesus tells us about how to be quickened. In John 6, we see Jesus go on and on about His Words being the key to being quickened. He says that His words are His spirit and they are life. He speaks of being the Bread of Life and that reading/ingesting God's Words, getting our Daily Bread, is the key to being quickened in our spirit - or being given eternal life to be resurrected when He returns. Those who have not been quickened will not have that component to be resurrected with/by.

Paul even mentions being unsure of having attained to the resurrection in Phil. 3:11-14 and we are told in James 2:26 that the body without The Spirit is dead. Many will jump to the conclusion that this is not speaking of the Holy Spirit, but I have done my due diligence in studying the Greek concerning this verse and it turns out that this use of spirit is absolutely plausible as referring to the Holy Spirit.

So, what does this all mean? Well, it actually means a number of things and the implications are staggering. If it is only believing Christians who are resurrected, that means that it will only be Christians who have a spiritual quickening that would even allow them to exist in an afterlife destination of hell. If that doesn't scare the socks off of you, I don't know what will.

Please consider all that I have presented and point out any apparent inconsistencies and I will elaborate where necessary. This OP does not contain every relevant verse on this subject so there is plenty of room for further discussion.

Enjoy and God bless.
 
Jethro Bodine said:
There will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked:

Acts 24:15 BSB
15and I have the same hope in God that they themselves cherish, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

Daniel 12:2 BSB
2And many who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake, some to everlasting life, but others to shame and everlasting contempt.
Click to expand...
Yes.

I find both those verses to fit into this concept.

"Verily, verily I say unto you, he that heareth My word, ... hath everlasting life, ..."
John 5:24
"Verily, verily I say unto you, The hour is coming, ... when ... they that hear shall live."
John 5:25
"Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming in the which all (believers) that are in the graves shall hear His voice; And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life, and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."

Who hears God's voice/words?

"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me: (Christians = Followers of Christ)."
John 10:27

Does the Bible speak of any who are not capable of hearing Jesus' voice?

"Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word."
John 8:43
"He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God."
John 8:47
 
Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, Rev 19:11-21, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

John 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. (one resurrection, two different judgements)

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

2 Thessalonians 1:1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father the Lord Jesus Christ: 2 Grace unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. 3 We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is meet, because that your faith groweth exceedingly, and the charity of every one of you all toward each other aboundeth; 4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: 5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: 6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; 7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

When I read all the scriptures of Jesus sitting at the right hand of God and these scriptures that speak about the judgement of Christ, the Great White throne judgement where God is sitting on the throne and the books that are opened, Matthew 25:31-34; John 5:27-29; 2 Corinthians 5:10; Rev 11:18; Rev 20:4-6; Rev 20:11, 12, this makes me believe that at the Great White Throne judgement God will be sitting on His throne and Jesus is there seated at Gods right hand now on His throne of glory. All (saints and sinners) have been called from their graves (one resurrection) and the sheep are then separated from the goats as the sheep, being those of God and His Son Christ Jesus will stand before the judgement seat of Christ as they have been given their new glorified bodies and their names found in the book of life. They will then be judged for their good works they did as being the continued works of the Lord being in Gods will and receive their crown rewards and their inheritance of the Kingdom of God in the New Jerusalem. The goats being those who are not God's or Christ own will be judged out of the other books and their judgement is that of rejecting God and His Son and their punishment is being cast into the lake of fire.

Scripture never speaks of two resurrections, but only one resurrection, John 5:28, 29 and a second death (Those being Spiritually dead) being that of death and hell being cast into the lake of fire, Rev 20:14, 15. There are two separate judgements, but only one resurrection as all will occur at the same time at the Great White Throne Judgement then will God renew the heaven and earth and usher down the New Jerusalem.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him.
A 1000 years in Rev 20 is not literal years, but only symbolic of a certain period of time as nowhere else in scripture does it mention a literal 1000 year reign of Christ here on earth, but symbolic as in Deuteronomy 7:9; 1Chronicles 16:15; Psalms 50:10; 90:4; 105:8 Ecc 6:6; 7:28; Daniel 5:1; 2Peter 3:8.
 
theWind said:
First of all, I believe there is only one resurrection.
Click to expand...
4Then I saw the thrones, and those seated on them had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. Revelation 20:4

5The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years were complete. This is the first resurrection.

Revelation 20:4-6

A first resurrection indicates there is one or more after this. What’s the second resurrection?
 
for_his_glory said:
Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, Rev 19:11-21, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

John 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. (one resurrection, two different judgements)

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

2 Thessalonians 1:1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father the Lord Jesus Christ: 2 Grace unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. 3 We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is meet, because that your faith groweth exceedingly, and the charity of every one of you all toward each other aboundeth; 4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: 5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: 6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; 7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

When I read all the scriptures of Jesus sitting at the right hand of God and these scriptures that speak about the judgement of Christ, the Great White throne judgement where God is sitting on the throne and the books that are opened, Matthew 25:31-34; John 5:27-29; 2 Corinthians 5:10; Rev 11:18; Rev 20:4-6; Rev 20:11, 12, this makes me believe that at the Great White Throne judgement God will be sitting on His throne and Jesus is there seated at Gods right hand now on His throne of glory. All (saints and sinners) have been called from their graves (one resurrection) and the sheep are then separated from the goats as the sheep, being those of God and His Son Christ Jesus will stand before the judgement seat of Christ as they have been given their new glorified bodies and their names found in the book of life. They will then be judged for their good works they did as being the continued works of the Lord being in Gods will and receive their crown rewards and their inheritance of the Kingdom of God in the New Jerusalem. The goats being those who are not God's or Christ own will be judged out of the other books and their judgement is that of rejecting God and His Son and their punishment is being cast into the lake of fire.

Scripture never speaks of two resurrections, but only one resurrection, John 5:28, 29 and a second death (Those being Spiritually dead) being that of death and hell being cast into the lake of fire, Rev 20:14, 15. There are two separate judgements, but only one resurrection as all will occur at the same time at the Great White Throne Judgement then will God renew the heaven and earth and usher down the New Jerusalem.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him.
A 1000 years in Rev 20 is not literal years, but only symbolic of a certain period of time as nowhere else in scripture does it mention a literal 1000 year reign of Christ here on earth, but symbolic as in Deuteronomy 7:9; 1Chronicles 16:15; Psalms 50:10; 90:4; 105:8 Ecc 6:6; 7:28; Daniel 5:1; 2Peter 3:8.
Click to expand...
Why do you post such long posts?

Do you do a lot of cutting and pasting?

Your posts are so difficult to respond to because you do such a massive information dump and, it seems, hope nobody will bother to read through it all and counter anything you have presented.

Please refine your posts so that I can better enjoy countering your posts. :)
 
for_his_glory said:
Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, Rev 19:11-21, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

John 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. (one resurrection, two different judgements)

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

2 Thessalonians 1:1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father the Lord Jesus Christ: 2 Grace unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. 3 We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is meet, because that your faith groweth exceedingly, and the charity of every one of you all toward each other aboundeth; 4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: 5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: 6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; 7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

When I read all the scriptures of Jesus sitting at the right hand of God and these scriptures that speak about the judgement of Christ, the Great White throne judgement where God is sitting on the throne and the books that are opened, Matthew 25:31-34; John 5:27-29; 2 Corinthians 5:10; Rev 11:18; Rev 20:4-6; Rev 20:11, 12, this makes me believe that at the Great White Throne judgement God will be sitting on His throne and Jesus is there seated at Gods right hand now on His throne of glory. All (saints and sinners) have been called from their graves (one resurrection) and the sheep are then separated from the goats as the sheep, being those of God and His Son Christ Jesus will stand before the judgement seat of Christ as they have been given their new glorified bodies and their names found in the book of life. They will then be judged for their good works they did as being the continued works of the Lord being in Gods will and receive their crown rewards and their inheritance of the Kingdom of God in the New Jerusalem. The goats being those who are not God's or Christ own will be judged out of the other books and their judgement is that of rejecting God and His Son and their punishment is being cast into the lake of fire.

Scripture never speaks of two resurrections, but only one resurrection, John 5:28, 29 and a second death (Those being Spiritually dead) being that of death and hell being cast into the lake of fire, Rev 20:14, 15. There are two separate judgements, but only one resurrection as all will occur at the same time at the Great White Throne Judgement then will God renew the heaven and earth and usher down the New Jerusalem.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him.
A 1000 years in Rev 20 is not literal years, but only symbolic of a certain period of time as nowhere else in scripture does it mention a literal 1000 year reign of Christ here on earth, but symbolic as in Deuteronomy 7:9; 1Chronicles 16:15; Psalms 50:10; 90:4; 105:8 Ecc 6:6; 7:28; Daniel 5:1; 2Peter 3:8.
Click to expand...
Remember, we are focusing on the resurrection, not just who will see Christ return.

All may see Him, but even many of the verses you posted state that it is only specific people who are raised; not everybody who ever lived.

That's the point of the thread.
 
Jethro Bodine said:
4Then I saw the thrones, and those seated on them had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. Revelation 20:4

5The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years were complete. This is the first resurrection.

Revelation 20:4-6

A first resurrection indicates there is one or more after this. What’s the second resurrection?
Click to expand...
There's no "Second Resurrection" found anywhere in all of Scripture.

It is very difficult to make any doctrine from what is presented in Revelation as it is all symbolic signs and visions.

That resurrection that is mentioned is at the end of the thousand year Kingdom reign of Christ and the Bible indicates that Christ's Kingdom ends when He returns to the earth in 1 Cor. 15:24.

It's best, in my opinion, to stay away from Revelation passages to support any doctrine unless we can make them align with the rest of Scripture on the topic. Almost nothing in the rest of the Bible does.

All of the major end times passages completely contradict Rev. 20 and flesh out the case that the world ends on the Last Day when Christ returns and the Day of the Lord, Wrath of God, ensues.

That would mean that the resurrection that we see in John 5:28-29 is the only resurrection and, of those who are resurrected, some go to heaven and some to hell.
 
theWind said:
I would really like to discuss this with any level-headed DIY-thinkers out there. This is not a declaration of fact, just a working theory.

I have presented this on one, or more, other sites and was swarmed with negativity and vitriol. Please consider my presentation sincerely and share your thoughts. If this is a heated topic for you, maybe it's not the thread for you to take part in. Please use your own discretion there.

This realization has become more and more apparent to me in recent years. It is not popular, of course, and will not be immediately embraced by all, or any, but I can put together a pretty sound case using Scripture and I will make this OP as terse as possible so the discussion can ensue.

First of all, I believe there is only one resurrection. I will remind repeatedly that this is not a Pre-Mil/Millennium after Christ thread. Please consider the scenario that I present based on Scripture.

The concept that I am proposing is that Christians, those who have been quickened and/or given the Holy Spirit, are the only people that Jesus resurrects at His coming. There are multiple reasons for my perspective on this, not the least of which is that Jesus tells us that it is only His sheep that are capable of hearing His voice. When He returns to gather His people in the resurrection, He gives a shout and those who are in the graves who can hear His voice will rise to Him. Those who cannot hear the voice of The Shepherd, will not rise at all. They are destroyed by death and will never be again.

John 5:28 uses the word 'all', but there are other verses/passages that use 'all' as well and are only referring to 'all' of a specific category of people - just as forever only refers to until the end of time in some passages. The following verse is the real shocker if this theory is correct. John 5:29 tells us that those who have done evil will be resurrected to damnation. On its face, this seems impossible that this would be believers, but Matt. 7:21-23 reveals a similar scenario. In that passage, those believers are rejected for being workers of iniquity (sin).

Now, let's look at what Jesus tells us about how to be quickened. In John 6, we see Jesus go on and on about His Words being the key to being quickened. He says that His words are His spirit and they are life. He speaks of being the Bread of Life and that reading/ingesting God's Words, getting our Daily Bread, is the key to being quickened in our spirit - or being given eternal life to be resurrected when He returns. Those who have not been quickened will not have that component to be resurrected with/by.

Paul even mentions being unsure of having attained to the resurrection in Phil. 3:11-14 and we are told in James 2:26 that the body without The Spirit is dead. Many will jump to the conclusion that this is not speaking of the Holy Spirit, but I have done my due diligence in studying the Greek concerning this verse and it turns out that this use of spirit is absolutely plausible as referring to the Holy Spirit.

So, what does this all mean? Well, it actually means a number of things and the implications are staggering. If it is only believing Christians who are resurrected, that means that it will only be Christians who have a spiritual quickening that would even allow them to exist in an afterlife destination of hell. If that doesn't scare the socks off of you, I don't know what will.

Please consider all that I have presented and point out any apparent inconsistencies and I will elaborate where necessary. This OP does not contain every relevant verse on this subject so there is plenty of room for further discussion.

Enjoy and God bless.
Click to expand...
Yes both of them, good and evil, the difference is one will be ressurected to life and another will be ressurected to torment.
 
Soldiers said:
Yes both of them, good and evil, the difference is one will be ressurected to life and another will be ressurected to torment.
Click to expand...
Do you know of any verses/passages that contradict the views I pointed out?

Anything that makes the case that we don't need to be quickened, or given Life, in order to be raised?

What of those who Jesus declares to be dead?

James 2:26 says the body is (spiritually) dead without the Spirit.

I don't believe the Bible makes the case that those people will be raised to life and we have many passages that make claims like 2 Peter 2:21 and Prov. 21:16 - strongly implying that there is an even worse punishment for those who are given the Light, and Life, of Truth yet turn from it.

"For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them."

"The man that wandereth out of the way of understanding shall remain in the congregation of the dead."

These are Christians being spoken of.
 
theWind said:
Yes.

I find both those verses to fit into this concept.

"Verily, verily I say unto you, he that heareth My word, ... hath everlasting life, ..."
John 5:24
"Verily, verily I say unto you, The hour is coming, ... when ... they that hear shall live."
John 5:25
"Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming in the which all (believers) that are in the graves shall hear His voice; And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life, and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."

Who hears God's voice/words?

"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me: (Christians = Followers of Christ)."
John 10:27

Does the Bible speak of any who are not capable of hearing Jesus' voice?

"Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word."
John 8:43
"He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God."
John 8:47
Click to expand...
Hello theWind.
Jn.5:25 says the saved and unsaved are resurrected at a future time. Are you saying the unsaved won't be resurrected?
 
theWind said:
Yes.

I find both those verses to fit into this concept.

"Verily, verily I say unto you, he that heareth My word, ... hath everlasting life, ..."
John 5:24
"Verily, verily I say unto you, The hour is coming, ... when ... they that hear shall live."
John 5:25
"Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming in the which all (believers) that are in the graves shall hear His voice; And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life, and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."

Who hears God's voice/words?

"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me: (Christians = Followers of Christ)."
John 10:27

Does the Bible speak of any who are not capable of hearing Jesus' voice?

"Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word."
John 8:43
"He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God."
John 8:47
Click to expand...
If only you had not inserted the word "believers" into the John 5:29 verse...
 
theWind said:
It's best, in my opinion, to stay away from Revelation passages to support any doctrine unless we can make them align with the rest of Scripture on the topic. Almost nothing in the rest of the Bible does.
Click to expand...
Opinion, check!

I read nowhere of the Bible that lists the 11th commandment of "Thou shalt considereth Revelation only when it aligneth with other Scripture".

Revelation is as good as it's own as any other book, or we should do that with every book (Paul on women teaching, Paul on men having long hair, bestiality being a sin are only mentioned once).

1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 contradicts your point on us not being risen again so does 1 Corinthians 15:52.

Daniel 12:2, Acts 24:15, John 5:29,1 Corinthians 15:51-52 Revelation 20:1-15 Also backs up the claim I made about some being raised to glory and others not so much.

What you'r referring to is the saving of our souls from sin (death), which is already occured when Jesus saves us and we accept his free gift. That's known as taking the power of sin over us away, and the stain of sin away (replacing our labels from sinful to righteous), then Christ will soon diminish the presence of sin.
 
theWind said:
Do you know of any verses/passages that contradict the views I pointed out?

Anything that makes the case that we don't need to be quickened, or given Life, in order to be raised?

What of those who Jesus declares to be dead?

James 2:26 says the body is (spiritually) dead without the Spirit.

I don't believe the Bible makes the case that those people will be raised to life and we have many passages that make claims like 2 Peter 2:21 and Prov. 21:16 - strongly implying that there is an even worse punishment for those who are given the Light, and Life, of Truth yet turn from it.

"For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them."

"The man that wandereth out of the way of understanding shall remain in the congregation of the dead."

These are Christians being spoken of.
Click to expand...
Read my prior comment. God will literally raise all from the dead, some to glory and others not so much. James is talking about spiritually dead, but this is talking about literally being raised and brought unto the judgement throne of Christ. If your theory were correct an no sinners were ressurected, they would have no judgement at the judgement throne of God which contradicts this

11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire. - Revelation 20:11-15

John 5:29 "and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment"
 
theWind said:
There's no "Second Resurrection" found anywhere in all of Scripture.

It is very difficult to make any doctrine from what is presented in Revelation as it is all symbolic signs and visions.

That resurrection that is mentioned is at the end of the thousand year Kingdom reign of Christ and the Bible indicates that Christ's Kingdom ends when He returns to the earth in 1 Cor. 15:24.

It's best, in my opinion, to stay away from Revelation passages to support any doctrine unless we can make them align with the rest of Scripture on the topic. Almost nothing in the rest of the Bible does.

All of the major end times passages completely contradict Rev. 20 and flesh out the case that the world ends on the Last Day when Christ returns and the Day of the Lord, Wrath of God, ensues.

That would mean that the resurrection that we see in John 5:28-29 is the only resurrection and, of those who are resurrected, some go to heaven and some to hell.
Click to expand...
If the Bible refers to a first resurrection that means there is one or more after that.

It isn't just 'the' resurrection. It's called the 'first' resurrection. Obviously, there's more than one.
 
Last edited:
journeyman said:
Hello theWind.
Jn.5:25 says the saved and unsaved are resurrected at a future time. Are you saying the unsaved won't be resurrected?
Click to expand...
He's saying that only 'believers' will be resurrected because only 'believers' can hear the voice of God. And so only 'believers' will hear him calling the dead to life. And among these resurrected 'believers' there will be those who are wicked and will rise to damnation and those who are righteous who will rise to eternal life.

The problem with this theology is there is no such thing as a condemned believer. There are people who never believed, and people who stopped believing who will be condemned, but there is no such thing as a person who presently trusts and believes in the forgiveness of God remaining in the condemned state that the forgiveness of God they believe and trust in released them from.
 
Last edited:
theWind said:
Why do you post such long posts?

Do you do a lot of cutting and pasting?

Your posts are so difficult to respond to because you do such a massive information dump and, it seems, hope nobody will bother to read through it all and counter anything you have presented.

Please refine your posts so that I can better enjoy countering your posts. :)
Click to expand...
Just as you feel the need to approach an area people miss ( which you are trying to get to), for_his_glory is talking about many areas.

We all see through dark sunshades now. It does not mean we are blind, but we do struggle.

Give us a chance. Do not throw up your hands and say (another group that will not listen).

The rich man and Lazarus passage has people hearing in different areas, but unable to communicate across certain barriers / gulfs?

I am thinking. Slow down. Present your thoughts several ways.

Mississippi redneck
eddif
 
@the Wind
Give your thoughts on Matthew 13:30 kjv
30. Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

I am trying.

eddif
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top