Are unbelievers resurrected?

[eddif]

I would really like to discuss this with any level-headed DIY-thinkers out there.

2 Peter 1:21 kjv
21. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

One prophet speaks, but others weigh what is said.

eddif

 

[lastofall]

You have said the answer to your question already in John 5:29; if any other, than we must needs have in remembrance in the midst of John 3:18 Christ telling us plainly that.."he that believeth not is condemned already".
The conclusion: that except we repent of unbelief, we shall die in our sins, and nothing wavering.

 

[theWind]

Hello theWind.
Jn.5:25 says the saved and unsaved are resurrected at a future time. Are you saying the unsaved won't be resurrected?

I am exploring the possibility that those who do not believe in God, and have not been quickened with the Holy Spirit, will not be resurrected at all. I supplied a number of verses to make that case and continue to do so.

I don't see John 5:25 saying what you claimed.

It speaks of the dead and my Bible directs me to Col. 2:13 which clarifies that it is speaking of those who have been quickened. I have a running theory that the Bible is written to Christians. Many times there are verses that appear not to make sense if directed to all men of the world, but when we consider that God wrote the Book to His Children, to the Saints, to Christians, it then makes perfect sense.

Why Jesus says 'all' in some of these verses, it makes much more sense that He is speaking to 'all Christians', all who believe and have been quickened with the Holy Spirit.

We see in Dan. 12:2 that is reads 'many' of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

That verse is huge in this case as it specifically uses the word 'many' as opposed to 'all.'

 

[theWind]

If only you had not inserted the word "believers" into the John 5:29 verse...

You meant John 5:28. I notated it wrong. My bad, I'd fix it if we didn't have a time limit on the edit option here.

It was meant to be obvious that it was my emphasis, but I should've noted that.

It is in reference to Dan. 12:2 which says 'many' as opposed to 'all', but I hadn't gotten to that verse yet.

 

[theWind]

I read nowhere of the Bible that lists the 11th commandment of "Thou shalt considereth Revelation only when it aligneth with other Scripture".

Thanks for making your point.

It doesn't have to be a Commandment to be a very obvious, and well-known, rule about how to construct Sound Doctrine. Anybody could take one single verse from Scripture and create an entire doctrine around it, and many have, but if it doesn't align with the weight of evidence of the Bible as a whole, it is not a sound concept at all.

Revelation is as good as it's own as any other book, or we should do that with every book (Paul on women teaching, Paul on men having long hair, bestiality being a sin are only mentioned once).

Do you find Scripture elsewhere that contradicts any of those?

1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 contradicts your point on us not being risen again so does 1 Corinthians 15:52.

Those are speaking of the people who will be raised, of course.

Daniel 12:2, Acts 24:15, John 5:29,1 Corinthians 15:51-52 Revelation 20:1-15 Also backs up the claim I made about some being raised to glory and others not so much.

Not sure I've contradicted that. You'll have to elaborate on that one.

What you'r referring to is the saving of our souls from sin (death), which is already occured when Jesus saves us and we accept his free gift. That's known as taking the power of sin over us away, and the stain of sin away (replacing our labels from sinful to righteous), then Christ will soon diminish the presence of sin.

No, I'm specifically addressing resurrection.

 

[theWind]

Read my prior comment. God will literally raise all from the dead, some to glory and others not so much. James is talking about spiritually dead, but this is talking about literally being raised and brought unto the judgement throne of Christ. If your theory were correct an no sinners were ressurected, they would have no judgement at the judgement throne of God which contradicts this

11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire. - Revelation 20:11-15

John 5:29 "and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment"

No, you haven't fully understood what I am proposing.

Dan. 12:2 says 'many' will be raised; not all. I have pointed out multiple verses/passages that support my case.

What I am proposing is that those who have no relationship whatsoever with God, no belief in Him, no nothing, might not be raised at all.

All who are raised will be Christians, believers. Take a close look at Matt. 7:21-23.

If you are die-hard OSAS, this concept won't appeal to you enough to even open-mindedly consider it. I mentioned there would be some of those people who might not even bother with this thread. Not saying you're not welcome here, just saying it might not be a conversation that is your cup of tea.

I have not thrown out a crazy idea with no Biblical backing to support it. On the contrary, there is ample Scripture to support it and I am continuing to present that.

 

[theWind]

If the Bible refers to a first resurrection that means there is one or more after that.

It isn't just 'the' resurrection. It's called the 'first' resurrection. Obviously, there's more than one.

I'm sorry, but it only says 'First Resurrection' in the book of Revelation and there is not a single other verse or passage in all of Scripture that supports the idea that there will be more than one.

If you can find the words 'Second Resurrection' from Genesis to Revelation, I will Paypal you $100.

There is only one resurrection and it includes any and all who will be raised.

Revelation is a book of signs, symbols and visions. Unless there is Scripture, elsewhere in the Bible, to support what it presents, it cannot be taken literally. All major end times passages completely contradict much of what is spoken in Revelation. That is not to say Revelation is not legitimate Scripture, it is to say that the common interpretations of what it teaches are not sound at all.

 

[theWind]

Just as you feel the need to approach an area people miss ( which you are trying to get to), for_his_glory is talking about many areas.

We all see through dark sunshades now. It does not mean we are blind, but we do struggle.

Give us a chance. Do not throw up your hands and say (another group that will not listen).

The rich man and Lazarus passage has people hearing in different areas, but unable to communicate across certain barriers / gulfs?

I am thinking. Slow down. Present your thoughts several ways.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

I'm not sure I've done any of this, but thank you for the advice.

 

[theWind]

2 Peter 1:21 kjv
21. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

One prophet speaks, but others weigh what is said.

eddif

Agreed.

That's the idea.

 

[theWind]

Which one, the first one, or the one or more after that? Revelation 20:5.

The resurrection happens on the Last Day when Jesus returns and the Wrath of God ensues.

Can you show me any verses/passages outside of the book of Revelation that claim there is anything but a single resurrection?

To be clear, the book of Rev. only speaks of one resurrection as well.

It is the same, and only, resurrection spoken of in John 5 and 1 Cor. 15.

 

[theWind]

He's saying that only 'believers' will be resurrected because only 'believers' can hear the voice of God. And so only 'believers' will hear him calling the dead to life. And among these resurrected 'believers' there will be those who are wicked and will rise to damnation and those who are righteous who will rise to eternal life.

That's correct.

The problem with this theology is there is no such thing as a condemned believer.

The Bible makes a very strong case against that sentiment.

There are people who never believed, and people who stopped believing who will be condemned,

Explain how this is different than Christians being lost, please.

but there is no such thing as a person who presently trusts and believes in the forgiveness of God remaining in the condemned state that the forgiveness of God they believe and trust in released them from.

Matt. 7:21-23 contradicts that notion.

So does John 15:2-6.

This is not a thread on OSAS so I hope those who cannot look past that doctrine will refrain from making it one.

God bless.

 

[theWind]

You have said the answer to your question already in John 5:29; if any other, than we must needs have in remembrance in the midst of John 3:18 Christ telling us plainly that.."he that believeth not is condemned already".
The conclusion: that except we repent of unbelief, we shall die in our sins, and nothing wavering.

The Bible makes the case that Christians can be, and are, lost.

Matt. 7:21-23 - believers rejected by Christ at the Judgment.
John 15:2-6 - those who are 'IN' Christ removed from the Vine.
Rev. 3:5 - names blotted out of the Book of Life.

This is not an OSAS thread. This is a thread to take a close look at the Scriptures that appear to make the case that unbelievers will not be raised at the resurrection. To claim, "Well, this just isn't possible because OSAS!" is not to even open-mindedly consider all the verses/passages that are being presented herein.

I have not thrown out a silly idea with no Scripture to back it up. On the contrary, I am doing just the opposite. If it is unthinkable for some, this is not the thread for them.

 

[Highway54]

I would really like to discuss this with any level-headed DIY-thinkers out there. This is not a declaration of fact, just a working theory.

I have presented this on one, or more, other sites and was swarmed with negativity and vitriol. Please consider my presentation sincerely and share your thoughts. If this is a heated topic for you, maybe it's not the thread for you to take part in. Please use your own discretion there.

This realization has become more and more apparent to me in recent years. It is not popular, of course, and will not be immediately embraced by all, or any, but I can put together a pretty sound case using Scripture and I will make this OP as terse as possible so the discussion can ensue.

First of all, I believe there is only one resurrection. I will remind repeatedly that this is not a Pre-Mil/Millennium after Christ thread. Please consider the scenario that I present based on Scripture.

The concept that I am proposing is that Christians, those who have been quickened and/or given the Holy Spirit, are the only people that Jesus resurrects at His coming. There are multiple reasons for my perspective on this, not the least of which is that Jesus tells us that it is only His sheep that are capable of hearing His voice. When He returns to gather His people in the resurrection, He gives a shout and those who are in the graves who can hear His voice will rise to Him. Those who cannot hear the voice of The Shepherd, will not rise at all. They are destroyed by death and will never be again.

John 5:28 uses the word 'all', but there are other verses/passages that use 'all' as well and are only referring to 'all' of a specific category of people - just as forever only refers to until the end of time in some passages. The following verse is the real shocker if this theory is correct. John 5:29 tells us that those who have done evil will be resurrected to damnation. On its face, this seems impossible that this would be believers, but Matt. 7:21-23 reveals a similar scenario. In that passage, those believers are rejected for being workers of iniquity (sin).

Now, let's look at what Jesus tells us about how to be quickened. In John 6, we see Jesus go on and on about His Words being the key to being quickened. He says that His words are His spirit and they are life. He speaks of being the Bread of Life and that reading/ingesting God's Words, getting our Daily Bread, is the key to being quickened in our spirit - or being given eternal life to be resurrected when He returns. Those who have not been quickened will not have that component to be resurrected with/by.

Paul even mentions being unsure of having attained to the resurrection in Phil. 3:11-14 and we are told in James 2:26 that the body without The Spirit is dead. Many will jump to the conclusion that this is not speaking of the Holy Spirit, but I have done my due diligence in studying the Greek concerning this verse and it turns out that this use of spirit is absolutely plausible as referring to the Holy Spirit.

So, what does this all mean? Well, it actually means a number of things and the implications are staggering. If it is only believing Christians who are resurrected, that means that it will only be Christians who have a spiritual quickening that would even allow them to exist in an afterlife destination of hell. If that doesn't scare the socks off of you, I don't know what will.

Please consider all that I have presented and point out any apparent inconsistencies and I will elaborate where necessary. This OP does not contain every relevant verse on this subject so there is plenty of room for further discussion.

Enjoy and God bless.

In answer to your question sir, of course, but it would depend on why they were unbelievers. Logically most people who have died had never heard of the true God, therefore they would be unbelievers but through ignorance. A righteous God could not hold them accountable. Some however know about God, but choose not to follow Him, still though virtually all of them will be resurrected. The only ones the Bible says has no ransom are those who sin against the holy spirit, and in my opinion that is very hard to get. My definition of that is that you have to know God well, and deliberately work against His purposes. Is that the way you would define it as well?

Remember hell will be emptied completely, with everyone being resurrected from it, then no longer being necessary it will be cast into the lake of fire, gone forever. Rev 20:13,14

 

[eddif]

I am exploring the possibility that those who do not believe in God, and have not been quickened with the Holy Spirit, will not be resurrected at all. I supplied a number of verses to make that case and continue to do so.

I don't see John 5:25 saying what you claimed.

It speaks of the dead and my Bible directs me to Col. 2:13 which clarifies that it is speaking of those who have been quickened. I have a running theory that the Bible is written to Christians. Many times there are verses that appear not to make sense if directed to all men of the world, but when we consider that God wrote the Book to His Children, to the Saints, to Christians, it then makes perfect sense.

Why Jesus says 'all' in some of these verses, it makes much more sense that He is speaking to 'all Christians', all who believe and have been quickened with the Holy Spirit.

We see in Dan. 12:2 that is reads 'many' of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

That verse is huge in this case as it specifically uses the word 'many' as opposed to 'all.'

Ok I see what I think is the problem. Study bibles.
If I were to write a complete Bible commentary, I could see the possibility of having a mistake somewhere. When you say my Bible refers me to a scripture. You have set the Bible Commentary you are using as the total truth. Not the scriptures as a total work, but the comments on the side.

Jesus condemned the Jews for their traditions that undo the word of God. Today we have established beliefs that are wrong.

Can eddif make a mistake? I would hope I do not? But if I say I have no sin, I am a lier. Matthew 25 has a lack of total understanding explained to two groups. We do not totally understand till the last trump. The changes at the last trump settle all our needs or condemn us.

Jewish traditions or gentile commentaries can get us into trouble. Do I have all knowledge to solve this? No. Am I Luke warm about about what I believe? No.

God is in control. God has left some mysteries sealed till the end.

1 Corinthians 3:4

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[theWind]

In answer to your question sir, of course, but it would depend on why they were unbelievers. Logically most people who have died had never heard of the true God, therefore they would be unbelievers but through ignorance. A righteous God could not hold them accountable. Some however know about God, but choose not to follow Him, still though virtually all of them will be resurrected. The only ones the Bible says has no ransom are those who sin against the holy spirit, and in my opinion that is very hard to get. My definition of that is that you have to know God well, and deliberately work against His purposes. Is that the way you would define it as well?

Remember hell will be emptied completely, with everyone being resurrected from it, then no longer being necessary it will be cast into the lake of fire, gone forever. Rev 20:13,14

The main crux of this thread is the idea that we must quickened, or receive the Holy Spirit, in order to be raised again to life. Those who are not/do not, have no spiritual life within them allowing them to be raised up again. James 2:26 refers to the Holy Spirit, not just having a common spirit. The human body, without Holy Spirit Life within it, is spiritually dead.

Unbelievers do not have that.

All who are raised will have been given Life at one point or another. Many will have turned back to their old ways and are referred to in Scripture as dogs and pigs as they returned to their vomit (sins) and their wallowing in the mud (sins).

The Bible says all of those type people, even Christians, who fall into that category, will be outside of the Kingdom of Heaven. If you are living in daily habitual sin, as a Christian, you will be resurrected and then rejected by God as Matt. 7:21-23 demonstrates. You will have your name blotted from the Book of Life (Rev. 3:5) and you will be removed from the Vine (John 15:2-6).

Dan. 12:2 says that 'many' will be raised, not all. Of those who are raised, they will be judged. What does John 3:16 say? It says those who believe will have spiritual Life. How can one be sent to an afterlife location of hell to be punished if they have no spiritual Life within them to exist in that spiritual location. Heaven and hell are spiritual destinations. We cannot exist in either place without spiritual Life to sustain us there.

Those who have never believed, will not be capable of being raised. Belief/faith is a gift from God. (Eph. 2:8; 1 Pet. 1:21; Phil. 1:29; Jude 1:3; 1 Cor. 12:9) Those who have not been given that gift of faith/belief will not be capable of John 3:16.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The Bible makes a very strong case against that sentiment.

Every believer remains saved as long as they continue to believe and trust in that which has saved them.

Perhaps you're thinking that means a 'believer' can purposely choose to go back to their old lifestyle of unrepentant sin and remain saved. No, because the person who does that either never believed or stopped believing and so that person is not a believing wicked person. They are a wicked unbeliever.

The wicked believing person you describe does not exist in scripture. You have to go back to unbelief to be that. 1 John 3:8-10.

 

[for_his_glory]

Why do you post such long posts?

Do you do a lot of cutting and pasting?

Your posts are so difficult to respond to because you do such a massive information dump and, it seems, hope nobody will bother to read through it all and counter anything you have presented.

Please refine your posts so that I can better enjoy countering your posts.

What I post is that of what I have personally written throughout the years as I have many teachings of what I have studied and give to others. I was trained as a Biblical teacher receiving my Evangelists license back in 1998. What I post in these forums is only a small part of those teachings. All I can tell you if you have any questions just ask me as I always try to give the full context of scripture by using many of them, which makes some of my postings a little longer than others. It's all about giving the full context for that's how we learn.

 

[for_his_glory]

Why do you post such long posts?

Do you do a lot of cutting and pasting?

Your posts are so difficult to respond to because you do such a massive information dump and, it seems, hope nobody will bother to read through it all and counter anything you have presented.

Please refine your posts so that I can better enjoy countering your posts.

Just wanted to add, You must have read my post as you gave it a like, but now complain about how long it was.

 

[for_his_glory]

Remember, we are focusing on the resurrection, not just who will see Christ return.

All may see Him, but even many of the verses you posted state that it is only specific people who are raised; not everybody who ever lived.

That's the point of the thread.

And that was the point of my post.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

He's saying that only 'believers' will be resurrected because only 'believers' can hear the voice of God. And so only 'believers' will hear him calling the dead to life. And among these resurrected 'believers' there will be those who are wicked and will rise to damnation and those who are righteous who will rise to eternal life.

The problem with this theology is there is no such thing as a condemned believer. There are people who never believed, and people who stopped believing who will be condemned, but there is no such thing as a person who presently trusts and believes in the forgiveness of God remaining in the condemned state that the forgiveness of God they believe and trust in released them from.

Thanks for clarifying. I didn get how only believers are resurrected,,,,,but some of them are damned? All who believe are saved.