Aren't these witchcraft practices?

[Havoc]

You'll forgive me if I prefer to listen to what God tells me about that, over what you claim God says...

God says the same thing about witchcraft to EVERYONE! I don't know who you're listening to, but it's NOT GOD.

In your opinion.

Evil spirits infiltrate families. It's probably the same spirit that your brother is being duped by.

I have no reason to believe in evil spirits or other empty religious rhetoric. Somehow i doubt your vociferous vocalizations will have any larger impression on Orion. Stories of evil spirits are only frightening to those who already believe in them.

 

[Havoc]

Take heed you don't rebel against God :

This is Samuel talking to the then king Saul..From I Samuel 15:23
23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.

So in Gods eyes you don't need to be riding a broom, think of that something people do
every day, they rebel :smt009

Then I guess it's a very good thing I would never rebel against God.

 

[Rick W]

Yes, . . . . that was a bit odd. :-?

You probably should ask Havoc that question, Potluck.

No I'm asking you. You say christianity is not provable therefore you deduce it isn't true. Yet you defend witchcraft with an admitted lack of defense toward christianity therefore the question isn't odd at all but inevitable.
Also, how can Havoc prove his religion as true if the same parameters of judgment are applied?

So I ask you Orion, is witchcraft true?

 

[Rick W]

Havoc,
I believe you may have missed this post.

The question is whether your claim that your Bible is the Word of God, or not. Until you can substantiate that claim, you cannot, reasonably, use the Bible to tell other people their beliefs about God are wrong.

The God of the bible is who he is, the God of the bible. If your God does not equally represent the God of the bible then the two cannot be one and the same. Therefore your God is not the biblical God.

Who is your God? Where are His testimonies? Where is His witness?

If you point to the biblical text as proof that your God exists then that's rather contradictory. If you must rely on the bible to describe your God then you've shown your substantiation of the claim that the biblical God does indeed exist and that the bible testifies of Him.

Again, who is your God? Where is His witness?

 

[Havoc]

Havoc,
I believe you may have missed this post.

I believe you may be right. It's what happens when you start to get old lol

The question is whether your claim that your Bible is the Word of God, or not. Until you can substantiate that claim, you cannot, reasonably, use the Bible to tell other people their beliefs about God are wrong.

The God of the bible is who he is, the God of the bible.

That's assuming the Bible is accurate in it's description of God. From My POV the Bible is an ancient people's perception of who God is, written down. it is a perception that, from my experience with God, has some serious flaws. You are, of course, free to disagree.

If your God does not equally represent the God of the bible then the two cannot be one and the same. Therefore your God is not the biblical God.

Or more precisely, the description of God contained in the Bible does not agree with the how God reveals Himself to me. God is God, no matter whether our description of Him comes from our perceptions, or from the perceptions of nomadic tribesmen from thousands of years ago.

Who is your God?

My God is.... God. The One. The Great I Am. The Alpha and Omega. The Great Mother. The Great Father. The Divine...... God

Where are His testimonies? Where is His witness?

On the lips and in the hearts of every one of His children.

If you point to the biblical text as proof that your God exists then that's rather contradictory.

That would be contradictory, which is why I don't do that.

If you must rely on the bible to describe your God then you've shown your substantiation of the claim that the biblical God does indeed exist and that the bible testifies of Him.

Which is why I don't rely on the Bible to describe God. I use the bible as a resource to counter the claims that you make. A subtle difference, but an important one.

Again, who is your God? Where is His witness?

Please see above. My answer has not changed, nor has God.

 

[Alabaster]

God is not a schizophrenic. Where He plainly tells us that witchcraft is a sin and that He hates it, He doesn't tell anyone else it's okay!

Anyone who says so is deluded by another spirit, an evil spirit who works against the Spirit of God. You cannot deny it. Even Satan Himself doesn't deny God. But who do you think Jesus Christ is? Who is He to you personally?

 

[Rick W]

God is not a schizophrenic. Where He plainly tells us that witchcraft is a sin and that He hates it, He doesn't tell anyone else it's okay!

Anyone who says so is deluded by another spirit, an evil spirit who works against the Spirit of God. You cannot deny it. Even Satan Himself doesn't deny God. But who do you think Jesus Christ is? Who is He to you personally?

lol

The ancients had the part about witchcraft wrong.

So Havoc, by what measuring stick do you judge which parts are true and which parts are untrustworthy? If one part is untrustworthy how can you cite your own believes on something that contains questionable material? After all, those people relied on a lot of superstition anyway. So you're basing your belief on a people who thought the world was flat, that comets were omens from the gods and that flies appeared out of nowhere.

 

[Havoc]

God is not a schizophrenic.

Of course not. Who would even suggest that He is?

Where He plainly tells us that witchcraft is a sin and that He hates it, He doesn't tell anyone else it's okay!

Does God tell us that Witchcraft is a Sin?

Ohhhhhhh, I see. You are referring to that particular translation of your Bible again, as if it actually were the "Word" of God.

Well if that's what you wish to believe, whatever.

If you plan on insisting that I, or anyone else accept it, I must assume you have objective evidence to show that it is God's word. So please proceed.

What? You have no objective evidence? What do you have? Nothing? Nada? Mivht? nein? Zero? The big Goosegg?

Well than it's a bit ridiculous for you to expect us to believe it just because you keep stomping your feet and insisting, wouldn't you say?

Anyone who says so is deluded by another spirit, an evil spirit who works against the Spirit of God. You cannot deny it.

I can't? Really? Wow! That's some power...

hang on, let me check

I deny it.

I deny it......

I.... deny.... it.

I deny it. I deny it. I deny it. I deny it. I deny it. I deny it. I deny it. I deny it. I deny it. I deny it. I deny it. I deny it. I deny it. I deny it. I deny it. I deny it. I deny it. I deny it. I deny it. I deny it. I deny it. I deny it. I deny it. I deny it. I deny it. I deny it. I deny it. I deny it. I deny it. I deny it. I deny it. I deny it. I deny it. I deny it. I deny it. I deny it. I deny it.

Nope, it seems I have no trouble denying it at all. Seems you were wrong, Alabaster. You said I couldn't deny it, yet plainly I can. I wonder what other things you've been wrong about from up there on your soapbox?

Even Satan Himself doesn't deny God.

Well that's between you and Satan, I suppose. Satan is your demigod of evil, not mine.

But who do you think Jesus Christ is? Who is He to you personally?

Who is Sri Rama to you personally?

 

[Havoc]

So Havoc, by what measuring stick do you judge which parts are true and which parts are untrustworthy?

I assume you are referring to parts of the Bible?

If it agrees with what God tells me, then it has value. If it disagrees with what God tells me then it is untrustworthy, from my POV. For instance, the Bible contains a lot of good advice in the book of Proverbs for instance. Good erotic poetry in the Song of Songs...

On the other hand some parts, like where God has his people rape captured girls, or where he sends bears to slaughter children for teasing a bald man... well those just don't describe my Father God.

If one part is untrustworthy how can you cite your own believes on something that contains questionable material?

Probably the same as you would consider the value or worth of any legendary material in someone else's scriptures. It's quite common, for example, for Christian apologists to use the Qu'ran when debating with Muslims.

After all, those people relied on a lot of superstition anyway. So you're basing your belief on a people who thought the world was flat, that comets were omens from the gods and that flies appeared out of nowhere.

it wwould appear that we are exactly alike in that regard :D

 

[Rick W]

So Havoc, by what measuring stick do you judge which parts are true and which parts are untrustworthy?

I assume you are referring to parts of the Bible?

If it agrees with what God tells me, then it has value. If it disagrees with what God tells me then it is untrustworthy, from my POV.

That's what I thought.

 

[turnorburn]

You seem to be singing the blues here, please explain.

Havoc writes: If it agrees with what God tells me, then it has value. If it disagrees with what God tells me then it is untrustworthy, from my POV. For instance, the Bible contains a lot of good advice in the book of Proverbs for instance. Good erotic poetry in the Song of Songs...

On the other hand some parts, like where God has his people rape captured girls, or where he sends bears to slaughter children for teasing a bald man... well those just don't describe my Father God.

Now I have a couple of questions maybe three. "Good erotic poetry" who wrote it and who was it written to? "Where God has his people rape captured girls" who wrote it and who was it written to?
"Bears slaughtering children" who wrote it and who was it written to? Then lastly you say "Your God" who is it and whats his name?

 

[Rick W]

Then lastly you say "Your God" who is it and whats his name?

That's what I'm trying to find out turn.
Good luck. :-D

 

[Orion]

So Havoc, by what measuring stick do you judge which parts are true and which parts are untrustworthy?

I assume you are referring to parts of the Bible?

If it agrees with what God tells me, then it has value. If it disagrees with what God tells me then it is untrustworthy, from my POV.

That's what I thought.

And that thought is a problem for you, Potluck? It is an honest answer. It happens to be the way I see it, too. If something goes against "my grain", in the Bible, or if something is obviously false, then why would I ever just blindly believe it, just because a specific religious group tells me that I have to?

You asked me if "witchcraft is truth". For some people, it is A truth. I'm still searching for MY truth, and though I haven't found it, I won't rule out "witchcraft" as an option, though I probably wouldn't actually use that label since it has such a negative vibe in America.

 

[Orion]

Someone in the 1st or 2nd century wrote the story about the "bald head name calling causing bear mauling of youth". But let's look at that one and ask yourself WHY any deity would be so unjust to some youth just because they were calling someone a name? Whatever rationalization you would come up with may look to anyone else as being "silly". The fact is, regardless of "Paul's feelings getting hurt" (I think it was Paul), do you really believe that the pain and death caused by a bear, at the request of the "big baby" is justified? Of course not! It would be highly immoral and improper for anything like this to happen based upon simple name calling.

I don't want to derail THIS thread by discussing this, but I submit it as something that I CANNOT see any true deity doing. Sounds more like a made up story to me, anyway.

 

[Veritas]

900 BC. The story is from 2 Kings 2:23-25. Elisha was the man who cursed them. There is more behind that story than name calling.

 

[Orion]

Oh, 900bc, so it makes it even further back than originally thought, . . . .and right in line with the "rather mean Jewish God of the Old Testament".

Kinda goes against the "love your enemies" of the New Testament.

But what were the other circumstances that made it okay for these youth to be mauled to death by a bear? :-?

 

[Veritas]

...God still loves His enemies, but He does have the right to take life... He gave it after all.

not to derail this thread... I have more on the incident here:

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=32243

 

[Veritas]

Orion, I think you have the wrong picture of God... have you seen His passion and love recorded in the Old Testament?

I know I'm derailing the thread here... but I have to show you this...

Say to them, 'As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die!?' Ezekiel 33:11

Do you sense the near desperation? Even through all that "mean" stuff... He loved them... and loves us...

 

[Orion]

Yes, Veritas, what you posted would be closer to my idea of what God would be, in other words, something within the Jewish Old Testament that they may have gotten pretty right. Many places show a God who is comletely contrary to those words, however.

 

[Veritas]

Perhaps I should help bring the thread back on topic...

Havoc, how do you know that the original story was not some form of witchcraft? From what you were explaining before, and from what I understand, there are many types.

Also, I noticed that you mentioned that God is known by many different names. What about Jesus? Do you think Jesus is God?