Aren't these witchcraft practices?

[Havoc]

Of course, the "you must not have been a good enough, believing Christian, then". Another ridiculous statement. I was completely believing of all of it! I was VERY sincere, all through my childhood and young adult life, and even into my adulthood. I once dropped a college class because the instructor was bad mouthing a "young earth". So don't tell me I wasn't truly attempting to follow Christ, I was. He just never made himself known to me. Why is that? Because it ALL has to do with a person's "level of faith" in the unseen, unfelt, and literally unknowable, outside of a book.

This isn't a "bitterness towards God". I simply don't believe that the God mentioned in the bible, especially of the Old Testament, was truly who God really is. I think a lot of it was MAN'S words, speaking for who they thought God was and what they thought God wanted of people.

Your story is quite familiar Orion. Much of it mirrors mine. Much of it mirrors the story of many, many people.

They would have you believe that no one who truly believes could ever turn away from their religion. Their Bible says otherwise. Experience says otherwise. Statistics say otherwise.

Christianity is the religion of nativity in this culture. Most people who are Christians, even the devout, are so because their family is; because that is the culture they were born into. If they were born in the middle east, they would be Muslim. In Asia they would be Buddhist, etc.

Is it therefore that surprising that a good number of people who, having truly believed, and not finding God in the religion of the culture, or their fathers, would search for God elsewhere? Or perhaps give up the search?

Fundamentalist Christians simply cannot abide the thought of anyone finding God elsewhere. This is why they must come up with ways to pretend they know your heart better than you do.

 

[Alabaster]

Ridiculous! And if what you said WERE true, then you would have to wonder WHY, . . . .what it was about God, who is supposed to be perfect, that someone would find objectionable. If there WAS nothing objectionable, then no one, in their right mind would reject the love of that type of deity.

Are you calling what God says ridiculous? Why am I not surprised?

John 10:25-28
I have told you, and you refused to believe me. The things I do by my Father's authority show who I am. But since you are not my sheep, you don't believe me. My sheep know my voice, and I know them. They follow me, and I give them eternal life, so that they will never be lost. No one can snatch them out of my hand.

2 Thessalonians 2:10-12
They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

 

[Alabaster]

Once a person has met the living God in the person of Jesus Christ, there is no turning back, and no renouncing![/b]

That's an interesting idea. Strange that you should believe that, considering your Bible says otherwise.

Being reborn in Christ, there is no turning back. It must be made clear that there are such things as false converts.

Being a cultural Christian doesn't cut it.

 

[Havoc]

Being reborn in Christ, there is no turning back. I

Your Bible disagrees with you

 

[Havoc]

Are you calling what God says ridiculous? Why am I not surprised?

Technically he was saying that what you CLAIM God says is ridiculous. Did God say those things? Or did some priest write them, hoping people would believe they were God's words?

John 10:25-28
I have told you, and you refused to believe me. The things I do by my Father's authority show who I am. But since you are not my sheep, you don't believe me. My sheep know my voice, and I know them. They follow me, and I give them eternal life, so that they will never be lost. No one can snatch them out of my hand.

2 Thessalonians 2:10-12
They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

See if I were a religious leader trying to make sure that my sheep would not questions, and wouldn't listen to anyone who did question, but rather follow anything I said was the Word of God in blind faith... I'd pretty much write the same kind of thing.

I'm afraid your quoted scripture shows nothing but good psychology.

 

[Biblereader]

Being reborn in Christ, there is no turning back. I

Your Bible disagrees with you

How so, Havoc? What bible verses can you quote, that prove that Christians deny their faith, and turn away from Jesus?

 

[Havoc]

Being reborn in Christ, there is no turning back. I

Your Bible disagrees with you

How so, Havoc? What bible verses can you quote, that prove that Christians deny their faith, and turn away from Jesus?

I did not say all Christians. Please let's not obfuscate the issue with things I didn't say. According to your scripture it is possible for aa person to be a "true" Christian, and then to fall away.

Hebrews 6:
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.


I'm rather surprised you folks don't know your Bible better.

 

[Alabaster]

Are you calling what God says ridiculous? Why am I not surprised?

Technically he was saying that what you CLAIM God says is ridiculous. Did God say those things? Or did some priest write them, hoping people would believe they were God's words?

Jesus said them.
John 20:29
Jesus said, "Thomas, do you have faith because you have seen me? The people who have faith in me without seeing me are the ones who are really blessed!"

I'm afraid your quoted scripture shows nothing but good psychology.

That's where you are wrong. God's Word is truth, and cuts through psychological mumbo jumbo. In fact, good psychology is the result of following after God's word. He is the creator of our minds, and the sustainer of our mental health, and the author of great and perfect understanding .

 

[Orion]

Are you calling what God says ridiculous? Why am I not surprised?

John 10:25-28
I have told you, and you refused to believe me. The things I do by my Father's authority show who I am. But since you are not my sheep, you don't believe me. My sheep know my voice, and I know them. They follow me, and I give them eternal life, so that they will never be lost. No one can snatch them out of my hand.

2 Thessalonians 2:10-12
They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

Not at all, so don't put words in my mouth. Just because YOU believe that God dictated/inspired the writer of John or Thessalonians, doesn't make it fact.

By the way, what is YOUR evidence of "the truth" as stipulated in Thessalonians? It is nothing but the faith in the word of a man. That includes the notion that God would "send someone a delusion that would CAUSE them to "sin against him". Ask yourself if you think it is moral to CAUSE someone to believe otherwise, yet condemn them when they do! Thanks for giving me yet another paragraph or two for my book.

 

[Orion]

Your story is quite familiar Orion. Much of it mirrors mine. Much of it mirrors the story of many, many people.

They would have you believe that no one who truly believes could ever turn away from their religion. Their Bible says otherwise. Experience says otherwise. Statistics say otherwise.

Christianity is the religion of nativity in this culture. Most people who are Christians, even the devout, are so because their family is; because that is the culture they were born into. If they were born in the middle east, they would be Muslim. In Asia they would be Buddhist, etc.

Is it therefore that surprising that a good number of people who, having truly believed, and not finding God in the religion of the culture, or their fathers, would search for God elsewhere? Or perhaps give up the search?

Fundamentalist Christians simply cannot abide the thought of anyone finding God elsewhere. This is why they must come up with ways to pretend they know your heart better than you do.

Agreed, Havoc. This is also a story similar to my brother, though he has chosen a life of witchcraft as a result of a conversation with God, that it was the path he was to be on. I bet that there are many people who were QUITE sincere about their Christian faith, yet found it lacking. I don't know what MY answer is, at this point. I'm still searching for my own way, but I have a feeling that my "problem with faith" may keep me from anything meaningful.

I want something that is beyond me, something that my brain won't be able to question from where it came from. I've been told that it may never happen for me, but I'm still hopeful.

Thanks for your input, Havoc!

 

[Havoc]

Jesus said them.
John 20:29
Jesus said, "Thomas, do you have faith because you have seen me? The people who have faith in me without seeing me are the ones who are really blessed!"

Again, all that quoting scripture shows is that some person CLAIMS Jesus said them. You have no way of showing if jesus ever said anything of the sort. Then, of course, there is the other half of the problem... even if you could show Jesus said them, you cannot show that Christ was God.

So all you have shown, once again, is a claim. You have not substantiated that claim.

[quote:3d468]I'm afraid your quoted scripture shows nothing but good psychology.

That's where you are wrong. [/quote:3d468]

I am wrong, am I ? I assume you have some way to show, using objective evidence that I am wrong? .....No?
So then your claim that I am wrong is simply another empty claim.

God's Word is truth,

I agree, but that's not the question. The question is whether your claim that your Bible is the Word of God, or not. Until you can substantiate that claim, you cannot, reasonably, use the Bible to tell other people their beliefs about God are wrong.

In fact, good psychology is the result of following after God's word. He is the creator of our minds, and the sustainer of our mental health, and the author of great and perfect understanding .

I agree entirely, which is why I am one of God's Children, and His servant.

 

[Alabaster]

Agreed, Havoc. This is also a story similar to my brother, though he has chosen a life of witchcraft as a result of a conversation with God, that it was the path he was to be on. I bet that there are many people who were QUITE sincere about their Christian faith, yet found it lacking. I don't know what MY answer is, at this point. I'm still searching for my own way, but I have a feeling that my "problem with faith" may keep me from anything meaningful.

I want something that is beyond me, something that my brain won't be able to question from where it came from. I've been told that it may never happen for me, but I'm still hopeful.

Thanks for your input, Havoc!

God doesn't hold conversations with people and impress upon them to enter witchcraft! God considers witchcraft an abomination!

Your brother has been deceived by an evil spirit.

Searching for your own way, you will never find it. We will only find our reason for living and a purpose in life and wholeness in following God's way in Jesus christ, the Way, the Truth and the Life.

 

[Rick W]

The question is whether your claim that your Bible is the Word of God, or not. Until you can substantiate that claim, you cannot, reasonably, use the Bible to tell other people their beliefs about God are wrong.

The God of the bible is who he is, the God of the bible. If your God does not equally represent the God of the bible then the two cannot be one and the same. Therefore your God is not the biblical God.

Who is your God? Where are His testimonies? Where is His witness?

If you point to the biblical text as proof that your God exists then that's rather contradictory. If you must rely on the bible to describe your God then you've shown your substantiation of the claim that the biblical God does indeed exist and that the bible testifies of Him.

Again, who is your God? Where is His witness?

 

[Havoc]

God doesn't hold conversations with people and impress upon them to enter witchcraft!

In your opinion....

God considers witchcraft an abomination!

You'll forgive me if I prefer to listen to what God tells me about that, over what you claim God says...

Your brother has been deceived by an evil spirit.

In your opinion...

Searching for your own way, you will never find it.

Which is why I trust in God as my guide....

We will only find our reason for living and a purpose in life and wholeness in following God's way in Jesus christ, the Way, the Truth and the Life.

Yes we understand that you believe that.

 

[Orion]

Havoc, thank you for saving me some typing.

Alabaster, I DID look for my "reason for living" in God. Is it my fault that God didn't show up? Or am I supposed to take the words of some people and hold on to only them when I know down deep that there is nothing real there?

Again, I am completely open to the TRUTH, but it isn't going to make any difference if you keep saying that "the truth is in the Bible". I've found a lot of stuff in there, and some of it isn't truth at all.

 

[Rick W]

Orion,
Is witchcraft truth?

 

[Havoc]

Orion,
Is witchcraft truth?

What a strange question to ask someone who is not a Witch

 

[Orion]

Yes, . . . . that was a bit odd. :-?

You probably should ask Havoc that question, Potluck.

 

[Alabaster]

You'll forgive me if I prefer to listen to what God tells me about that, over what you claim God says...

God says the same thing about witchcraft to EVERYONE! I don't know who you're listening to, but it's NOT GOD.

Evil spirits infiltrate families. It's probably the same spirit that your brother is being duped by.

 

[turnorburn]

Take heed you don't rebel against God :

This is Samuel talking to the then king Saul..From I Samuel 15:23
23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.

So in Gods eyes you don't need to be riding a broom, think of that something people do
every day, they rebel :smt009