"At our church, there are several with tatts, including several middle aged women"

[joethemechanic]

Re: "At our church, there are several with tatts, including several middle aged women

So what's next, can we ignore Deut 22 because it's OT law and say it's ok for Christians to crossdress?

 

[farouk]

Re: "At our church, there are several with tatts, including several middle aged women

I would consider having a butterfly tatted on a lower calf or a fish symbol on the shoulder a "speck" (if even that.)

handy:

Yes, it can be done discreetly and in a modest and wholesome way.

And the fish symbol you mention (spelling ICHTHUS) can for a young man going into the military, or for a pastor's daughter, etc., going to college, something they want to have done so that from the start they will have a talking point about what they stand for, in the barrack room, at a residence, and so forth.

Yes, this is a good thought, too.

Joe: There is no need to lump together all the possible placements and those who bear them.

 

[handy]

Re: "At our church, there are several with tatts, including several middle aged women

Not trying to get personal on you Joe, but just to throw out for consideration:

Are you careful to never wear wool and linen together?

Are you careful to never eat a cheeseburger or a lasagne with meat sauce or a pizza with pepperoni?

Do you have a long and untrimmed beard?

There are many laws in the OT and I don't know of any Christian who keeps all of them... and if they do, they need to realize that it profits them nothing by way of salvation... one isn't "more holy" before God for keeping these laws than the person who humbly does not stand upon their own righteousness.

Trying to enforce all the OT laws upon all Christians is something that we are not to do... and when it comes to picking and choosing what laws individual Christians are to follow... I cannot see anyone other than the Holy Spirit who should be doing that.

It's one thing if the Holy Spirit convicts you or I about getting a tattoo (not that He's convicted me, I just choose not to have one) ... but to be judgmental towards a brother or sister who has one? Again... who are we to judge the servant of another Master?

 

[farouk]

Re: "At our church, there are several with tatts, including several middle aged women

Just to highlight again an interesting and, I think, relevant quote from an article:

"from an article by Lisa Plummer, (yahoo voices):
'in a statement to National Geographic News, Erin Fauble of the Professional Alliance of Tattooists said, "If I had to guess, I would say that maybe 60 percent of the tattoos being done are being done on women." .. Zak Huff, artist and owner of Inkspot Tattoos (said: ) "Now, most of my clientele are female." '

I think the statistics estimated in this quote from the article may be said to speak for themselves, really. It can be regarded as a very benign thing for a huge proportion of clients. Of course, some tattoos are not benign. But this does not discredit all designs and placements.

And the women at the conservative church that handy refers to (see OP) would seem to have realized, together with a lot of people, that, depending on a few factors, it can be a modest and wholesome thing to do it.

 

[24Fanatic]

Re: "At our church, there are several with tatts, including several middle aged women

@joethemechanic:
So, according to a lot of the posts you've put in this thread, we should all judge people on their outward appearances and our first impressions of them, and shut them out from having even a remote opportunity to be introduced to the great God and savior that someone else had the goodwill, love, and obedience to introduce us to? If that's the case, then I would probably still be living an immoral, drugged up, drunk, theiving life that would lead me to an eternity in Hell, forever separated from God, and in eternal torment, lonliness, and regret.

Oh, and did I mention that I'm in my mid-thirties, tattooed, pierced, with hair halfway down my back? I've also been serving God faithfully for the past 14 years. I've prayed for people, and they've been instantly healed. I've prayed for people and their finances have been restored. I've prayed for people and their broken relationships have been restored. Not through any power that I myself possess, but by the power of the Holy Spirit, who has made me fortunate enough to be chosen and used by Him.

So I guess the person who invited me to church even though she knew I was a drugged up, drunken sinner should have left me in my lost state so "church people" wouldn't have to see a person like me in their clean, exclusive, us four and no more club that they call church, huh?

If "Christian" people continue judging people instead of doing what they were placed on this planet to do, which is point people to Jesus Christ and rescue them from the world that is burning down around them without them even being aware of it, countless millions of individuals will spend eternity in Hell, separated from the God who loves them, and who created them to have relationship with Him.

In that light, do you really think a little ink under the skin is such a big flippin' deal?

 

[joethemechanic]

Re: "At our church, there are several with tatts, including several middle aged women

I'm kinda lost here. So you are saying I can unrepentantly ignore all 613 OT laws and be alright with Christ?

 

[handy]

Re: "At our church, there are several with tatts, including several middle aged women

I'm kinda lost here. So you are saying I can unrepentantly ignore all 613 OT laws and be alright with Christ?

No... I'm saying the Holy Spirit does a far better job of convicting His children as to what violates His principles than either you or I do.

Another thing that Jesus said comes to mind... "Let him without sin cast the first stone."

 

[joethemechanic]

Re: "At our church, there are several with tatts, including several middle aged women

@joethemechanic:
So, according to a lot of the posts you've put in this thread, we should all judge people on their outward appearances and our first impressions of them, and shut them out from having even a remote opportunity to be introduced to the great God and savior that someone else had the goodwill, love, and obedience to introduce us to? If that's the case, then I would probably still be living an immoral, drugged up, drunk, theiving life that would lead me to an eternity in Hell, forever separated from God, and in eternal torment, lonliness, and regret.

Oh, and did I mention that I'm in my mid-thirties, tattooed, pierced, with hair halfway down my back? I've also been serving God faithfully for the past 14 years. I've prayed for people, and they've been instantly healed. I've prayed for people and their finances have been restored. I've prayed for people and their broken relationships have been restored. Not through any power that I myself possess, but by the power of the Holy Spirit, who has made me fortunate enough to be chosen and used by Him.

So I guess the person who invited me to church even though she knew I was a drugged up, drunken sinner should have left me in my lost state so "church people" wouldn't have to see a person like me in their clean, exclusive, us four and no more club that they call church, huh?

If "Christian" people continue judging people instead of doing what they were placed on this planet to do, which is point people to Jesus Christ and rescue them from the world that is burning down around them without them even being aware of it, countless millions of individuals will spend eternity in Hell, separated from the God who loves them, and who created them to have relationship with Him.

In that light, do you really think a little ink under the skin is such a big flippin' deal?

If you have turned from your wicked ways, why do you wish to portray an appearance that suggests you still cling to some elements of your past?

Are you looking back?

Genesis 19:26
New International Version (NIV)
26 But Lot’s wife looked back, and she became a pillar of salt.

http://www.biblegateway.com/audio/mclean/niv/Gen.19.26

 

[24Fanatic]

Re: "At our church, there are several with tatts, including several middle aged women

I'm kinda lost here. So you are saying I can unrepentantly ignore all 613 OT laws and be alright with Christ?

So you're claiming that you follow all of the Old Testament law? Okay, here's a little test:
1)When was the last time you ate shellfish? Lev. 11:9-12

2)If you are married, when was the last time you separated your wife from you for 7 days while she menstruated? Lev. 15:19

3)When was the last time you made a burnt offering to denote your total surrender to God and to make substitutionary atonement for yourself? Lev. 1:3-17

4)Do you pay your workers every day? You should, if you follow Lev. 9:13

5)And here's the one that takes the cake in this discussion. Are you ready?
Leviticus 19:15--Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment: thou shalt not respect the person of the poor, nor honour the person of the mighty: but in righteousness shalt thou judge thy neighbour.

6)And now for the bonus round!! Do you keep all of the feasts listed in Leviticus 23?

Oh, you don't abide by the aforementioned laws/requirements/commandments? Is it because you are a non-practicing Jew, or is it because you are not Jewish?

Well, here's the kicker. I'm not Jewish, either!

James 2:8-13 speaks well to this point:
8 If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, “Love your neighbor as yourself,†you are doing right. 9 But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. 11 For he who said, “You shall not commit adultery,†also said, “You shall not murder.†If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker.

12 Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom, 13 because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment.

This passage quotes directly from Lev. 19:18, Ex 20:14, Deut 5:18, Ex 20:13, and Deut 5:17. Kind of a New Testament spin on Old Testament scripture. I love it when that happens!

If you have turned from your wicked ways, why do you wish to portray an appearance that suggests you still cling to some elements of your past?

Are you looking back?

Genesis 19:26
New International Version (NIV)
26 But Lot’s wife looked back, and she became a pillar of salt.

http://www.biblegateway.com/audio/mclean/niv/Gen.19.26

Apparently you missed the entire point of my previous post, which is that it is selfish and detrimental to other people when we judge based on appearance. At one point I chopped off all of my hair and actually looked like I was in the military. I grew it back out, because I like the look better. Not because I'm looking back. I'll never look back to the life I had B.C., because that man is dead, buried, and decomposing. In fact, he's been rather worm-eaten for the past 14 years and counting!

 

[farouk]

Re: "At our church, there are several with tatts, including several middle aged women

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The area in which I live, >16000 people, has five tattoo shops. Of the five, three are owned by women, of those three, two are owned and operated by Christians.

So the thought of Christian women with tattoos is just how it is.. When the artist is a Christian woman, it makes it more accessible for other Christian women. …[.] My wife had tatts before Christ.. She states that she prefers the idea of an artist with a set of morals similar to our own. We are friends with two female tattoo artists .. For my wife it seems to come down to the money, she may get more later, as the finances become available.

The responses to the poll, above, would seem to bear out overwhelmingly some of the observations made by migraine about the use of parlors by women clients, and about the widespread interest in tattoo services by Godly women. He particularly notes that a majority of parlors in his area are owned by women. As the quote referred to from Lisa Plummer’s article says, someone from the Professional Alliance of Tattooists estimates that 60% of parlor clients are women.

These are the facts. As mygraine says, it is 'just how it is'.

This being stated, it would seem commendable and advantageous, even, when Christian women are prepared to set up in business as tattooists, as some have done in mygraine’s area. Quite apart from the testimony value to others, the service they would offer would also be likely to be more amenable to the many Godly women who wish to do it.

.....
PS: Thanks, Moderator reba, for deleting that photo that was posted.

 

[Stan53]

Re: "At our church, there are several with tatts, including several middle aged women

I don't have a lot of time to post during the week, so I just pop in and out as I can...)


No that's not it. You're missing the point.

The point is, when Ms. Pole Dancer sees Mr. and Mrs. Christian endorsing the art of tattooing in even the most innocent of ways it can be more of a signal of God's acceptance of her sinful lifestyle than a sign that God loves and accepts her.

In Romans 14, who has the obligation to keep hidden, for the sake of another, what they believe to be true about indulging a debatable behavior, the one who indulges, convinced in his own mind it's okay, or the one who thinks we shouldn't? You know the answer, but you insist the freer person has a right to do what he knows in his heart to be right. That's not what Paul says. Paul says consideration for others (love) forgoes their freedom to do what they want in the matter.

I can't think of a single case in the church where the church decided to forgo freedoms--freedoms they were sure they could indulge--for the sake of those who by conviction of conscience don't think the church should indulge. The world's fight for personal rights and freedoms without thought for others is just another example of how the world has polluted the church. Tattoos, and this mad 'talent search' attitude, are big examples of how the love of the world seems to be forever making ground in the church.

What bothers me about tattoos is they are popular among women because it's part of this growing fascination with the sexuality of women in our society. Sadly, Christians are eating it up almost as voraciously as the world. I don't see any problem whatsoever with a woman doing things to herself to heighten passion between her and her husband. But when that sexualization is broadcast so openly, like the world does, we got a problem. I don't need, or want to see the tattoos, or the barely covered up boob job that a woman got to make things more exciting in the bedroom for her and her husband (when that's the case for tattoos--which I think is more common than many will admit). That's between them. But somehow Christian women (and men) think it's okay to put these kinds of things on display for others to see, too. Dead wrong...and hardly representative of the godly modesty God wants all of us to have...especially women!

Sorry I don't buy that. Paul is talking about NOT letting our freedoms be a stumbling block to new believers. Your assumption that sinners see tats as an indicator that it is OK to sin, is presumtuous to say the least. Have you ever witnessed to a stripper? Tats would be one of her least concerns I'm sure. All straw men aside, your FEELINGS about the subject matter are duly noted.
The bottom line is that you can't really project YOUR feelings, which some may consider prudish, onto others and have them accept it as Biblical.

 

[farouk]

Re: "At our church, there are several with tatts, including several middle aged women

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I agree farouk i don't have tatts but my ears are pierced JUST ONCE
...

Reba: Well, actually your comparison is probably quite apt, because with so many women getting tattoos, getting a tatt is probably not too different from the way so many women were getting double ear piercings 15 to 20 years ago.

(Two cents’.)

 

[handy]

Re: "At our church, there are several with tatts, including several middle aged women

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Reba: Well, actually your comparison is probably quite apt, because with so many women getting tattoos, getting a tatt is probably not too different from the way so many women were getting double ear piercings 15 to 20 years ago.

(Two cents’.)

Reba, knowing your background as a PPK (Pentecostal Preacher's Kid) your example of getting even one piercing in your ears is pretty comparable with getting tatts... something that some raise all kinds of Cain about...when there really isn't anything wrong with it.

 

[farouk]

Re: "At our church, there are several with tatts, including several middle aged women

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There was a great-grandmother at a former church who had a delightful butterfly on her ankle; she was.. talking about getting additional tatts. A delightful and dedicated Christian woman..

AirDancer:

Yes, well to put it in a brutally simple way, many Christian women of a certain age and more do think that it’s a frankly delightful thing to go and do it.

Blessings.

 

[reba]

Re: "At our church, there are several with tatts, including several middle aged women

reba:

So do I; the Scriptures are wonderfully whole and cohesive, albeit with developing revelation, time periods and contexts.

The chapter you referred to — and your comment is appreciated — also seems to refer to shaving. It's hard for a man to apply cutting for the dead etc to tattoos if by the same token a man shaves. The question of context does arise, I think.

Blessings.
Blessings.

Lev 19:28 Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor print any marks upon you: I am the LORD.


Cuttings.. I was thinking of the zillions of piercing some folks get.. Tattoos nor print any marks . And yet i agree with you farouk.... A lot of my reservations most likely stem from my age... Tattoos parlors were next door to pool halls a million years ago :bigfrown Across the street from the bar! :shocked!

Sometimes the ol Pentecostal side of me peeks out.... I am speaking for myself i would not judge a persons salvation because of piercing or tatts or wither they worship on Saturday or tuesday

 

[reba]

Re: "At our church, there are several with tatts, including several middle aged women

Reba, knowing your background as a PPK (Pentecostal Preacher's Kid) your example of getting even one piercing in your ears is pretty comparable with getting tatts... something that some raise all kinds of Cain about...when there really isn't anything wrong with it.

YUP!

 

[reba]

Re: "At our church, there are several with tatts, including several middle aged women

I think i am pulling your thread off topic....Handy i was surprise to read your post about PPK i was saying about the same thing :yes Back to topic....

Farouk i like your guts

 

[AirDancer]

Re: "At our church, there are several with tatts, including several middle aged women

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AirDancer:

Yes, well to put it in a brutally simple way, many Christian women of a certain age and more do think that it’s a frankly delightful thing to go and do it.

Blessings.

I should have mentioned, Farouk, in that original post: the great-grandmother was in her late 80s...had had the tatts for quite a while.... and this was back in the earlier mid 1970s... in a state university town, with total population (including students) of about 12,000. The area was very conservative.

She was respected by everyone...and everyone knew her and had nothing but positive to say of her. She was a blessing to all and was a beautiful example of sharing God's love and God's word.

 

[farouk]

Re: "At our church, there are several with tatts, including several middle aged women

..

Farouk i like your guts

reba: Well, don't embarrass me....

But I guess your comment does serve to underline that threads on this relevant and topical subject ARE worthwhile and that there is no need for women as well as men to feel inhibited particularly if they want to express some faith related idea (such as a Bible ref., etc) in a modest and wholesome tattoo.

Blessings.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Re: "At our church, there are several with tatts, including several middle aged women

Let the images scroll through...you'll get it (lol):

http://www.noonedeservestodie.org/

(images are safe)