Atheist Dialog 1: Euthyphro Dilemma

[Free]

This is a reminder to stay on topic.

 

[AAA]

I believe I have sufficiently shown that there is indeed a third choice and shown that the Euthyphro Dilemma is indeed a false dilemma.

If you have, I've missed it.

Can you explain again what the third option is?

 

[Sir Pwn4lot]

But, I would say that God's morality is not arbitrary - it is perfect - because He is perfect. If God's morality is perfect - then He gets it right each and every time He commands something. He doesn't need to adjust His words later because He arbitrarily concludes that He made a mistake the first time around.

But perfectly what lol. On a degree of 0-100% where 100% is perfection at doing something and 0% is not doing it at all perfection is simply doing something with 100% efficiency.

Ok, so he can do moral acts with 100% efficiency, that still doesn't answer the question of what those moral acts are. There's a reason WHY they're moral, otherwise we're simply back to the 2nd prong, where they're entirely arbitrary. But if there is then we're at the 1st prong.

 

[Aaron the Tall]

Sir,

I am a little confused by the "efficiency" angle. If morality were on a scale of 0-100, 0 would be the complete opposite of God's character and 100 would be complete equality with God's character.

Ok, so he can do moral acts with 100% efficiency, that still doesn't answer the question of what those moral acts are.

I don't understand. Are you trying to get a list of what God's moral acts are? Or are you trying to understand what dictates God's overall morality?

I would say the reason WHY God's acts are moral are because they are in accordance with His character - and His character is without flaw. He is the epitome of perfect character and action.

I'll just give a little Bible quote that speaks to this: Hebrews 6:13,14

For when God made the promise to Abraham, since He could swear by no one greater, He swore by Himself, 14 saying, "I will surely bless you, and I will surely multiply you."

When we swear by something, we invoke something greater than ourselves. There is nothing greater than God, so He swore by Himself. I would say it is the same with God's morality. He can't look to some code greater than Himself to guide His moral actions so He looks to Himself to guide His moral actions - so to speak.

Saying something is "entirely arbitrary" may be unsettling when it refers to humans. But, even if those words could be applied to God's morality, it is still firmly grounded in His unmovable perfect character.

 

[Sir Pwn4lot]

Sir,

I am a little confused by the "efficiency" angle. If morality were on a scale of 0-100, 0 would be the complete opposite of God's character and 100 would be complete equality with God's character.

Take juggling potatoes, and hypothetically you have 10 potatoes at once. If you can keep all 10 in your hands then you're doing it perfectly, if you drop 1 then you're doing it 90% correct, if you drop them all then you're not doing it at all. Do you see what I mean? Perfection is simply a description of the efficiency of a particular action, but you haven't defined what that action is, that's what matters.

We're defining morality and you're saying that it's whatever God does, but haven't said why he does it, you've just said with what efficiency he performs that undefined act.

I don't understand. Are you trying to get a list of what God's moral acts are? Or are you trying to understand what dictates God's overall morality?

Ding, ding , ding! Lol, yeah the second half would be a good place to start for now. What dictates God's overall morality? We're trying to define morality and what morality is.

I would say the reason WHY God's acts are moral are because they are in accordance with His character - and His character is without flaw. He is the epitome of perfect character and action.

Without flaw implies that it's in accordance with morality, which makes it a circular argument lol. Morality is what God does that's in accordance with morality? You have to either define it as caused by something or not caused by something. If it's not caused by something then it's randomly assigned, if it is caused by something then it's independent of God lol.

I'll just give a little Bible quote that speaks to this: Hebrews 6:13,14

For when God made the promise to Abraham, since He could swear by no one greater, He swore by Himself, 14 saying, "I will surely bless you, and I will surely multiply you."

When we swear by something, we invoke something greater than ourselves. There is nothing greater than God, so He swore by Himself. I would say it is the same with God's morality. He can't look to some code greater than Himself to guide His moral actions so He looks to Himself to guide His moral actions - so to speak.

Which raises the question; what determines his character?

Saying something is "entirely arbitrary" may be unsettling when it refers to humans. But, even if those words could be applied to God's morality, it is still firmly grounded in His unmovable perfect character.

Obviously (I suppose, I've heard some pretty wack comments lol) you agree that murder is wrong, and so I do. It's wrong because if we started murdering then our society would crash, we can't survive if murder is condoned. If you shake the hand of someone else he'll shake it right back. If you don't murder me I won't murder you.

Just curious, is there a moral action that I as an Atheist can't perform? Is there an immoral action that I ask an Atheist couldn't perform but a Theist could?

 

[Aaron the Tall]

Sir,

Firstly, I don't think "perfection" can always be defined by how efficient something is. Perfection can be an inherent characteristic outside of behavior. A perfect diamond is one that is perfectly white, has zero inclusions, and is cut to exacting proportions. A perfect diamond doesn't do anything but sit there and sparkle.

I would say that God is perfect outside of what actions He performs. His morality is perfect because it comes from His perfect nature.

Morality is what God does that's in accordance with morality? You have to either define it as caused by something or not caused by something.

God is the cause of His own morality. I guess you could call that circular - but you can't separate God from His morality like we could be separated from a moral code.
If morality were a chain hanging from the sky, where each code depended on the link above it - God would be the upper most link in the chain. He doesn't depend on anything to define Himself - He holds up and defines the chain.

I'll try another analogy - though none could do God justice. Suppose I was an artist (which I am) and I was greater than any artist who ever lived. Suppose I possessed every single artistic ability one could possess to perfection. All other artists would be judged by my standard. Similarly, God is the epitome of morality and all others are judged by His standard.

Obviously (I suppose, I've heard some pretty wack comments lol) you agree that murder is wrong, and so I do. It's wrong because if we started murdering then our society would crash, we can't survive if murder is condoned.

Very true, but why is murder wrong? Is it because our society agrees it's wrong? Seems like some societies in history didn't think it was wrong - so did that make it okay? Is it wrong because of some evolutionary adaptation? Seems like that would be entirely arbitrary - based on the way certain chemicals just so happened to coalesce. They might have just as well coalesced in anther way and we could have ended up in a society where murder is good.

Just curious, is there a moral action that I as an Atheist can't perform? Is there an immoral action that I ask an Atheist couldn't perform but a Theist could?

I can only answer this from a Christian Theistic position. Certainly, an Atheist can do any moral action just as well as a Christian could. What we do, however, isn't what is supposed to separate a Christian from a non-Christian. In the Gospels, Jesus upped the requirements of his followers. To Jesus, hating somebody was at the same level as murder. Jesus taught that what was at the heart of somebody (their thoughts and motives) was more important than what came out. Anybody can do nice looking things, but it's the inner motives that determine whether something is truly good or not. Overall, the Christian religion isn't about doing moral actions - it's about becoming somebody by God's grace that we could not become in our own striving.
On the other side of things, I think there are immoral actions (or sins) that a Christian could perform that an Atheist couldn't. A Christian (being that he is a new person by God's power) has more responsibilities than an Atheist does. Jesus makes it clear that the more a person has, and the more a person understands - the more is expected of him. The Bible gives clear commands to Christians that it does not give to non-Christians.