Athiest query

[Vic C.]

Cia, it goes SO much deeper than just me expressing my thoughts. If most any believer here were truly honest about it, they'd have to admit that they didn't really choose to believe. It wasn't like one day I just decided to become a believer. It festered in me for years and I rejected it for as many years. Things slowly but surely began to make sense though. This should never be a point of contention for those who want to believe but don't for whatever reason. It's not done on anyone's timetable or schedule.

Somehow, some way we are all led to the point of faith and believing, not really comprehending how we got there. It takes not human wisdom or intellect to come to Faith, but rather a Faith that is lacking, for lack of a better word, in a worldly understanding, i.e. a supernatural experience. Science has come up with all sort of hypothesis' on why some believe and some don't, but who really know how and why God works things the way He does?

 

[handy]

I hear ya, Vic.

I tried the 'intellectual' path, trying to read up on all the religions and study the issue from all angles to see which was the most logical. However, I wound up in a room one night with the Spirit, and that is where my true path started.

There is a big difference between following Christian philosophy and being regenerated as a follower of Christ. How each of us gets to that point of being regenerated, is different as we are all individuals. For some, saying a Spirit-inspired prayer really does renew them. For others, the journey is a little tougher. But, all in all, it still will come down to having a one-to-one with a supernatural God.

I believe in science. I'm married to a biologist, and my daughter is budding fair to become a biologist. Ever since watching Neil walk on the moon, I've been facinated with the Cosmos and can point out quite a few of the stars and constellations by sight. I have always found true science affirms and points towards the truths of God. I think that there are many extra-Biblical reasons why a belief in God is not only rational, but obvious. But, when it comes down to how and when a person becomes a "Christian" or "born-again" or my favorite, "regenerated", THAT is always because of a personal encounter with the Spirit.

 

[cia11]

I totally understand what you mean. Belief and non-belief is not a choice, it's a personal realisation. Perhaps people are just made differently. I don't think it can come from other people - its an inner development over time. Apart from people who have never questioned their opinons, obvioulsy.

What I meant was, as a Christain, what are your thoughts on non-believers and hell? I ask because even though I don't believe in it, I still want to develop opinions on the subject of whether I "like" God or not (some might feel that I don't have a right to this opinion, but I would say that we have a right to an opinion on everything, as we all inhabit this world and are affected by everything in it).

My thoughts on the matter are that we can't choose who we are, what we like or what we believe - so how could God punish us for them?

 

[handy]

Hey Cia,

I think you hit the nail on the head when you said, "And if God would punish me for that, I've always said (perhaps a little boldly) that I'd rather go to hell than heaven!"

As bad as hell is made out, I don't think anyone will be there that doesn't prefer to be there rather than submit to what they don't like about God.

There are a variety of views culled from Christian doctrine regarding hell. And you can find every variety discussed right here at this board! My views are that hell is real, and that all who reject God will go there. Not because God is a big, mean, nasty old-fogey in a nightshirt taking glee out of the suffering of those who don't toe His line. But rather, because God is holy and truly good, and many humans cannot handle the idea of submitting to this, especially for all eternity.

I totally disagree with you regarding choosing. I think one of the greatest gifts God has given us is the ability to make rational choices regarding beliefs, character traits, and any number of other things. One thing we cannot choose though is who God is and what He is like. Either God is not real, doesn't exist and is just an idea of human thought, or He is real. If He is real, and I believe firmly that He is, He is who He is and we cannot change one iota of Him. We are all responsible for our own beliefs and actions. What God does, in the end, is give us the respect of honoring our choice regarding Him.

 

[Vic C.]

I don't know cia, maybe you misunderstood me. I'm not not suggesting some are destined to salvation and some to condemnation, that's purely a Calvinistic view. I believe some are predestined, or "elected" to a type of service that consists of many things, one of them being the revealing of God, His plan for Mankind and the spreading of the Gospel through His written word. Now it comes back to decision making. When someone shares the Gospel with you, what do you do with that information, or more precisely, that revelation? 8-)

I truly believe there is an eternal consequence for hearing and rejecting, though my beliefs are slightly different than those of a more fundamental belief. No need to bring that up right now; trust me the topic of death and hell has and will come up again. It always does!

 

[cia11]

Sorry not to have posted for a while, I have work on the weekends and I'm generally to shattered to move as soon as I get home!

Hi Handy

As bad as hell is made out, I don't think anyone will be there that doesn't prefer to be there rather than submit to what they don't like about God.

I guess you're right, although I wouldn't have said that belief is 'submitting' to God, just believing in him. But I've never believed as devotedly or as wholly as you, so I'm not really qualified to comment lol. If it is about submitting, and I did - how could I be happy in heaven? I would have sold out everything that I feel stongly about out of fear of going to hell, and I would feel ashamed of myself, not eternally blissful.

Which just reminded me of a question I heard the other day - say you died and went to heaven when your partner and children were still alive. And then (hypothetically) your loved ones went down a bad path which lead to them going to hell. Could you be happy for eternity knowing that the people you held dearest were going to be tortured for ever?

Now it comes back to decision making. When someone shares the Gospel with you, what do you do with that information, or more precisely, that revelation? 8-)

Hey Vic C, well as a Religious Studies student I have heard my fair share of the Bible, particularly the Gospels. As my course concentrates mainly on the four Gospels I'll concentrate on them. I would say that rejection of them would be the wrong word for my experience of them. I listen to them and often agree with what Jesus says. Perhaps you could say that in some circumstances I believe in Jesus, but not God (although I don't agree with everything Jesus does).

Although by rejection do you mean not accepting them as the exact words of Jesus, the son of God? If thats the case, then I do. However I do think that Jesus' teachings are a primarily excellent rules to live by.

 

[sisterchristian]

An Atheist in the Woods.....



An atheist was walking through the woods.
"What majestic trees"!
"What powerful rivers"!
"What beautiful animals"!
He said to himself.

As he was walking alongside the river, he heard a rustling in the bushes behind him. He turned to look. He saw a 7-foot grizzly bear charge towards him.

He ran as fast as he could up the path. He looked over his shoulder & saw that the bear was closing in on him.

He looked over his shoulder again, & the bear was even closer. He tripped & fell on the ground. He rolled over to pick himself up but saw that the bear was right on top of him, reaching for him with his left paw & raising his right paw to strike him.

At that instant the Atheist cried out, "Oh my God!"

Time Stopped.
The bear froze.
The forest was silent.

As a bright light shone upon the man, a voice came out of the sky. "You deny my existence for all these years, teach others I don't exist and even credit creation to cosmic accident." "Do you expect me to help you out of this predicament? Am I to count you as a believer"?
The atheist looked directly into the light, "It would be hypocritical of me to suddenly ask you to treat me as a Christian now, but perhaps you could make the BEAR a Christian"?

"Very Well," said the voice.

The light went out. The sounds of the forest resumed. And the bear dropped his right paw, brought both paws together, bowed his head & spoke:
"Lord bless this food, which I am about to receive from thy bounty through Christ our Lord, Amen."
_________________
Proverbs 12:1

Whoever Loves instruction Loves knowledge, But he who hates correction is stupid!

 

[cia11]

Sounds perfectly reasonable to me .

 

[turnorburn]

Re: Atheist query

My advice, if you want my advice, is where you make the statement, "you would choose hell over heaven" that statement will come back to haunt you. You have an attitude that is common among men and women everywhere! It goes something like this, "I'm no different than anybody else" I don't steal, not really steal : stealing is when you cause harm to someone, their food for example. I'd have to beg the question, when and where is the word "harm" used in that verse? You can make a list, and on this list write your version against what the Word of God says, now compare the two, see any difference? The next question should be, what is the wrath of God, its extremely important that you understand what "that" means, your eternity depends on the correct answer, because when you stand before him and stand before him you shall, how are you going to explain your brevity. Here comes the result! He'll say, what is so funny about me sending my Son to bleed on a cross and then go to the depths of hell for you. Will you bring out your list and count the excuses?

I wasn't going to revive this post until I realized you are serious, you would rather go to hell? now this may turn out to be your last chance, is your statement the same or will you accept the free pardon and have everlasting life

In His Service,
turnorburn

 

[Voyageur]

Yeah, science can answer a lot of questions, but not the question of the cause of the universe. That remains a religious/philosophical question.

I'm interested that you say you were a Christian for about a year. How did you come to consider yourself a Christian, and why did you leave it? (If it's not too personal a question for you!)

There is no answer to the cause of the universe. Just as with science, religion and philosophy can only guess. Religion creates myths. Philosophy attempts to break it down logically. Science uses the scientific method.

Of all three of them, science is in the best position to find an answer. That said, it seems unlikely that this will ever happen.

 

[Voyageur]

: Very ture. Pascal's wager is a running topic between me and my R.S teacher - who's made it his mission to convert me before I leave 6th Form! :P

I've always thought though that God, if he/she/it does exist, would rather we were all true to ourselves, would you agree? I can't see how God would want to punish me, if I lived my whole life trying not to harm anyone - just because I don't believe. And if God would punish me for that, I've always said (perhaps a little boldly) that I'd rather go to hell than heaven!

I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on this subject

Cia x

I think Pascal's Wager is extremely illogical, to the point where it should be totally ignored by anyone with a rational or scientific mind. The idea that one can wager one's eternal existence on an idea (the cause of creation or the existence of God) that cannot be proven is really just another way of phrasing the idea of faith. Faith is a wager. Faith is the antithesis of reason and science. So, there's nothing logical about Pascal's Wager, in my mind.

Cia-

Its nice that you have such a perspective. That's close to the position I've always taken with respect to the Judeo-Christian God. If he is infinite, then he has no needs nor wants. If he is perfect, then he would not be so vengeful, violent and petty. These are human qualities and imperfections, not character traits of a divinity. An infinite being should be infinitely understanding when it comes to matters of the mind: Some humans need evidence; others are content with operating purely on faith.

But, as you say... if there is a God and this isn't so (that is, he is not infinitely understanding), I'm not sure that I would be interested in spending eternity in such a divinity's presence.

 

[Voyageur]

I totally disagree with you regarding choosing. I think one of the greatest gifts God has given us is the ability to make rational choices regarding beliefs, character traits, and any number of other things. One thing we cannot choose though is who God is and what He is like. Either God is not real, doesn't exist and is just an idea of human thought, or He is real. If He is real, and I believe firmly that He is, He is who He is and we cannot change one iota of Him. We are all responsible for our own beliefs and actions. What God does, in the end, is give us the respect of honoring our choice regarding Him.

Handy,

Belief in the existence and omnipotence of a God that cannot be proven is not rational. So, to say that God's 'greatest gift is the ability to make rational choices regarding beliefs [and] character traits,' is a contradiction. How can one make a rational choice to believe? It makes no sense.

This is essentially what you are saying: God gives us the rational mind, then fails to provide any evidence; instead, he asks us to rely instead on faith, which brings us into conflict with our rational minds.

 

[Vic C.]

Coming to a Christian site to argue with Spirit-driven people about what they believe, especially if one doesn't believe in God, yet spends SO much of their time posting about something they don't believe, is rational??? :-?

Sort of like the put calling the kettle black, heh?

This has to stop, now. We went from honest questioning to telling believers they are irrational, on their "own turf" no less... :o

 

[turnorburn]

Re: Atheist query

I'm assuming that somewhere along the line you made an attempt to find God and your results were all negative. I feel I have the right to assume because the exact same thing happened to
me. I was a Little more than upset because the scripture says "seek and ye shall find" Well I did
find one thing, I found disappointment :

In His Service,
turnorburn

 

[Voyageur]

Coming to a Christian site to argue with Spirit-driven people about what they believe, especially if one doesn't believe in God, yet spends SO much of their time posting about something they don't believe, is rational??? :-?

Sort of like the put calling the kettle black, heh?

This has to stop, now. We went from honest questioning to telling believers they are irrational, on their "own turf" no less... :o

I've never said I don't believe in God. If you had read my argument, you'd know that what I was really saying is that I can't prove his existence; just as the scientist can't prove the ultimate cause of the universe. If you believe this is an affront to your way of thinking, then I'm sorry.

This was all in response to a poster who had said that one of God's greatest gifts was the rational choices one can make with regard to belief (among other things). What I was saying is that belief in a deity is not rational--it is emotional, even psychological.

Is there anything wrong with belief in a deity? As long as no one is hurt in the process, no.

But, it is not a rational enterprise because no rational evidence exists to support the claim. I can reason at night that the sun will rise the next day (even though I cannot see it), because every day it rises and has done so since time immemorial! I cannot say the same about a creative deity.

As far as my rationality is concerned with regard to posting on this site... I'm merely here to discuss theology. We can all argue our points intelligently, and I never ever resort to childish insults. I try to be as rational and intellectual as I can with theological arguments. Ultimately, I know I can't prove anything: that is, the existence or non-existence of the Judeo-Christian God. Or for that matter, the Greek Olympian gods, or the Mayan gods, etc. But, with that knowledge that I can't prove anything, I also realized that nobody else can prove anything with respect to deities either.

Also, I had a problem with Pascal's Wager, which is illogical as I see it.

 

[Voyageur]

Re: Atheist query

I'm assuming that somewhere along the line you made an attempt to find God and your results were all negative. I feel I have the right to assume because the exact same thing happened to
me. I was a Little more than upset because the scripture says "seek and ye shall find" Well I did
find one thing, I found disappointment :

In His Service,
turnorburn

Somewhere along the line? Yes, when I was around 8 or 9 years old. That's when Biblical contradictions became apparent. Later, I discovered that the Torah (Old Testament) and the New Testament were stitched-together writings from various authors who were writing several thousands years after the supposed events.

So, yes, the inherent chronological problems, as well as the contradictions of the Bible made me suspect something was amiss.

 

[turnorburn]

Re: Atheist query

Your statement "I've never said I don't believe in God" In reflection it reminds me when someone says they don't want to know God, and of course if that be the case that person will get there wish, they will never know God, ever* Your most fortunate Vic sounded as well he we all should, your spreading cow manure in the sheep trough. God loves you, you know it, the whole world knows it, but nobody is being honest. The reason they don't believe is this, if you do believe its required that you obey :

Coming to a Christian site to argue with Spirit-driven people about what they believe, especially if one doesn't believe in God, yet spends SO much of their time posting about something they don't believe, is rational??? :-?

Sort of like the put calling the kettle black, heh?

This has to stop, now. We went from honest questioning to telling believers they are irrational, on their "own turf" no less... :o

I've never said I don't believe in God. If you had read my argument, you'd know that what I was really saying is that I can't prove his existence; just as the scientist can't prove the ultimate cause of the universe. If you believe this is an affront to your way of thinking, then I'm sorry.

This was all in response to a poster who had said that one of God's greatest gifts was the rational choices one can make with regard to belief (among other things). What I was saying is that belief in a deity is not rational--it is emotional, even psychology.

Is there anything wrong with belief in a deity? As long as no one is hurt in the process, no.

But, it is not a rational enterprise because no rational evidence exists to support the claim. I can reason at night that the sun will rise the next day (even though I cannot see it), because every day it rises and has done so since time immemorial! I cannot say the same about a creative deity.

As far as my rationality is concerned with regard to posting on this site... I'm merely here to discuss theology. We can all argue our points intelligently, and I never ever resort to childish insults. I try to be as rational and intellectual as I can with theological arguments. Ultimately, I know I can't prove anything: that is, the existence or non-existence of the Judeo-Christian God. Or for that matter, the Greek Olympian gods, or the Mayan gods, etc. But, with that knowledge that I can't prove anything, I also realized that nobody else can prove anything with respect to deities either.

Also, I had a problem with Pascal's Wager, which is illogical as I see it.

 

[Voyageur]

Re: Atheist query

Your statement "I've never said I don't believe in God" In reflection it reminds me when someone says they don't want to know God, and of course if that be the case that person will get there wish, they will never know God, ever* Your most fortunate Vic sounded as well he we all should, your spreading cow manure in the sheep trough. God loves you, you know it, the whole world knows it, but nobody is being honest. The reason they don't believe is this, if you do believe its required that you obey :

Well, my friend, just because it reminds you of something doesn't make it so, no? You're simply avoiding all of the arguments I'm presenting. Aside from that, wishes have nothing to do with this discussion. That said, I wish you would present a logical counter-argument.

Perhaps you should respond to the arguments instead of trying to minister to me. :D

God loves me and the whole world? What observable evidence do you have it?

'If you do believe its required that you obey'? I should obey the writings of various authors writing across thousands of years? Writings based no less on the creation epics of older civilizations? Moral ideas that were never exclusively limited to Judaism and Christianity in the first place?

 

[turnorburn]

Re: Atheist query

Show me some evidence, where have I heard that before, well "my friend" if your looking for evidence look no further, Jesus said "it is finished" The world wanted proof, he gave the world proof. If you don't believe in him he told the crowds, "believe in the works I do". If "you" don't
believe that, what makes you think I can do any better :

In His Service,
turnorburn

Your statement "I've never said I don't believe in God" In reflection it reminds me when someone says they don't want to know God, and of course if that be the case that person will get there wish, they will never know God, ever* Your most fortunate Vic sounded as well he we all should, your spreading cow manure in the sheep trough. God loves you, you know it, the whole world knows it, but nobody is being honest. The reason they don't believe is this, if you do believe its required that you obey :

Well, my friend, just because it reminds you of something doesn't make it so, no? You're simply avoiding all of the arguments I'm presenting. Aside from that, wishes have nothing to do with this discussion. That said, I wish you would present a logical counter-argument.

Perhaps you should respond to the arguments instead of trying to minister to me. :D

[""God loves me and the whole world? What observable evidence do you have it?""]

'If you do believe its required that you obey'? I should obey the writings of various authors writing across thousands of years? Writings based no less on the creation epics of older civilizations? Moral ideas that were never exclusively limited to Judaism and Christianity in the first place?

 

[Voyageur]

Re: Atheist query

Show me some evidence, where have I heard that before, well "my friend" if your looking for evidence look no further, Jesus said "it is finished" The world wanted proof, he gave the world proof. If you don't believe in him he told the crowds, "believe in the works I do". If "you" don't
believe that, what makes you think I can do any better :

In His Service,
turnorburn

I'm not talking about Christianity here, Turnorburn. I'm trying to emphasize that attempting to prove the existence of a creator God is impossible because there is no evidence. It is equally impossible to prove the creator God's non-existence. This theological question exists outside of reason, as it belongs exclusively to one's passions and psychology.

That said, Jesus supposedly gave a small population of the Near East proof; however, no historical evidence exists outside of New Testament writings (which weren't written during Jesus' time). We must then rely on the subsequent writings of various authors of the Gospels (whose accounts differ) instead of physical evidence? None of this is troublesome at all?