Attention Athiest and non-Christians

[Novum]

Moral and ethical? Athiest say this, but what can they be talking about? If in fact we just die and that is all there is to it, then why not live as we please and die with as many things and as much power as we can.

Moral and ethics? Whos? The Christians, the Mormons, the Muslems, the Atiest? Whos do we go by, and if not one then why have any at all.

If we choose our own Moral and Ethic and there is no universality to it, what is the point?

There is none.

The very fact that we can even ask such a question is enough proof for me there is a God.

Argument from incredulity and non sequitur. Just because you cannot conceive of an ethical system that does not involve a deity is no reason to claim that such a system cannot exist. Furthermore, using this claim as a means to justify the existence of a god is, well, about as big a non-sequitur as you can get.

If you would like to discuss atheistic morality and ethics, I'd be more than happy to.

 

[gingercat]

Hello Novum, you missed my post.

 

[Novum]

Hello Novum, you missed my post.

Whoops, that I did. Sorry!

What of my other points - do you agree now that it is entirely possible, and readily achievable, to reach happiness and fulfillment without any deity?

I know you can achieve high goals what the world consider "success".

Human or world success is definately defferent from God's standard.

What is your god's standard of success?
What is "human or world success"?

What of those who have had their lives ruined by religion, including Christianity? I personally have met several people whose lives took immediate turns for the better upon deconverting.

What kind of people are you talking about?

I have a female friend who was in a horrible relationship. Her husband was not only an alcoholic and a heavy smoker, but he was also physically abusive to her. For several years, she stuck with the relationship, unwilling to seek help or even beg her husband to stop, because she sincerely believed - and this was a belief reinforced by her pastor - that her place, as a woman, was in the home serving her husband.

After a while, something just gave. She could not justify what she saw in her bible - the command to serve and love her husband - with the harsh reality that was her life. She ultimately deconverted, taking charge of her life for herself and freeing herself from her husband.

She is now in a stable, healthy relationship with a wonderful man. She's happier than I've seen her in years. Were you to ask her about how she was able to accomplish what she did, she would tell you that freeing herself from the chains of her religion was the single most pivotally important point in her life.

 

[gingercat]

I have a female friend who was in a horrible relationship. Her husband was not only an alcoholic and a heavy smoker, but he was also physically abusive to her. For several years, she stuck with the relationship, unwilling to seek help or even beg her husband to stop, because she sincerely believed - and this was a belief reinforced by her pastor - that her place, as a woman, was in the home serving her husband.

After a while, something just gave. She could not justify what she saw in her bible - the command to serve and love her husband - with the harsh reality that was her life. She ultimately deconverted, taking charge of her life for herself and freeing herself from her husband.

She is now in a stable, healthy relationship with a wonderful man. She's happier than I've seen her in years. Were you to ask her about how she was able to accomplish what she did, she would tell you that freeing herself from the chains of her religion was the single most pivotally important point in her life.

I am sorry to hear about your friend.

That pastor is not real Christian leader!

I know many pastors are incapable to help real tough situation like hers. That's another reason why I don't attend church.

I had a similar situation like hers but mine is much milder than hers. My husband is a life long churchgoer but did not follow Jesus' teachings. He was living double standard. He has several addictions including porn. As years went by his addiction became worse and his personality changed too. I became Christian for the last result of our miserable family situation. No one could help us. His pastor told me to go to woman's shelter when he was behaving badly.

This kind of incapable and hypocritical practice is result of uncommitted Christianity.

It has nothing to do with Jesus' teachings. Just because people who are claiming to be Christions do not mean anything. That's why I urge everyone to read the Bible instead of attending the church.

The Bible taught me how to hadle my husband's problem. I now have happy family without my husband. Noone should be told to stay with abusive spouse. That's not Jesus' teaching. I am not divorced from him but we are seperated. I will not remarry as long as he is alive.

 

[reznwerks]

morals

Moral and ethical? Athiest say this, but what can they be talking about? If in fact we just die and that is all there is to it, then why not live as we please and die with as many things and as much power as we can.

Moral and ethics? Whos? The Christians, the Mormons, the Muslems, the Atiest? Whos do we go by, and if not one then why have any at all.

If we choose our own Moral and Ethic and there is no universality to it, what is the point?

There is none.

The very fact that we can even ask such a question is enough proof for me there is a God.

What do you think there was before Christianity?There was a strong sense of morality in many cultures. Do some research on Hammurabis COde. The bible brings nothing new to the table on morality and how to live. Why do you need a God to do the right thing? Animals don't go around killing each other why do you think man would? Even animals have a code of right and wrong. As to a universality to morals think about it. Do you know of any culture that condones murder, robbery , adultery etc. Man can and is the source of all moral codes. God has never intervened in a court of law and has never sat on a jury and God has never overturned and unfair verdict.

 

[Novum]

Re: morals

reznwerks, you're a great guy and I usually agree with what you write, but...

Animals don't go around killing each other why do you think man would?

...that's just not true.

 

[gingercat]

Novum, you are missing my post again

 

[Novum]

Novum, you are missing my post again

A thousand apologies master, please forgive the 1 hour 45 minute lapse between your post and my response. :-D

I am sorry to hear about your friend.

That pastor is not real Christian leader!

Not at all. He certainly views himself as a "real Christian leader", and I'm sure most of his congregation does as well. Perhaps what you mean to say is that you, yourself, do not approve of him as a Christian leader.

I know many pastors are incapable to help real tough situation like hers. That's another reason why I don't attend church.

Some firefighters and accountants are incapable to help in real tough situations like hers as well. I'm not sure why you're viewing church as a therapy service. ;)

I had a similar situation like hers but mine is much milder than hers. My husband is a life long churchgoer but did not follow Jesus' teachings. He was living double standard. He has several addictions including porn. As years went by his addiction became worse and his personality changed too. I became Christian for the last result of our miserable family situation. No one could help us. His pastor told me to go to woman's shelter when he was behaving badly.

This kind of incapable and hypocritical practice is result of uncommitted Christianity.

I'm sorry to hear about your story. My condolences.

It has nothing to do with Jesus' teachings. Just because people who are claiming to be Christions do not mean anything. That's why I urge everyone to read the Bible instead of attending the church.

Churches, like any other community group, are a good place to find sympathetic friends whom you can lean upon for support. We're only human - we need other people to survive. A healthy dose of social interaction is... well, healthy.

That is why, while I'm not a Christian myself, I think it is disingenuous to advise people to avoid going to church - or joining any other supportive community group.

The Bible taught me how to hadle my husband's problem. I now have happy family without my husband. Noone should be told to stay with abusive spouse. That's not Jesus' teaching. I am not divorced from him but we are seperated. I will not remarry as long as he is alive.

I'm glad you're better off now.

 

[thehayesman]

Not at all. He certainly views himself as a "real Christian leader", and I'm sure most of his congregation does as well. Perhaps what you mean to say is that you, yourself, do not approve of him as a Christian leader.

I agree completely. The leader probably had the best intentions. However, Christianity is not in what words we use but in our actions. Whatever he wanted to do, his actions could certainly have been more godly if better informed.

She is now in a stable, healthy relationship with a wonderful man. She's happier than I've seen her in years. Were you to ask her about how she was able to accomplish what she did, she would tell you that freeing herself from the chains of her religion was the single most pivotally important point in her life.

I would argue that she did not reject Christianity but began living it in a new way. I would say she rejected a form of religion, but took hold of christianity in the way she trusted God in making this change in her life. Again, is christianity in our "rites" or our determination to take leaps of faith to do what God has revealed to us is right? I say she continues to be a Christian. :wink:

 

[Novum]

I would argue that she did not reject Christianity but began living it in a new way. I would say she rejected a form of religion, but took hold of christianity in the way she trusted God in making this change in her life. Again, is christianity in our "rites" or our determination to take leaps of faith to do what God has revealed to us is right? I say she continues to be a Christian. :wink:

:o

She definitely calls herself an atheist (well, "nontheist") now. You appear to be redefining the word "Christian" to be far, far more inclusive, to the point where it also encompasses... well, atheists. That's rather odd. :o

 

[Novum]

Sheesh, triple post.

 

[Novum]

Sheesh, triple post. Someone fix the post delay in this forum. ;)

 

[gingercat]

Some firefighters and accountants are incapable to help in real tough situations like hers as well. I'm not sure why you're viewing church as a therapy service. ;)

Because Jesus is expection us to carry each others burden and leaders should be capable doing so, They are getting payed for it.

BTW, is soneone comes to me with the spiritual problems I am ready to help them. I will never turn them down.

 

[gingercat]

Some firefighters and accountants are incapable to help in real tough situations like hers as well. I'm not sure why you're viewing church as a therapy service. ;)

Because Jesus is expection us to carry each others burden and leaders should be capable doing so, They are getting payed for it.

BTW, is soneone comes to me with the spiritual problems I am ready to help them. I will never turn them down.

 

[gingercat]

It has nothing to do with Jesus' teachings.

It has everything to do with Jesus teachings if you are Christian. Jesus' teachings are completely different from the world point of view and teachings. Jesus is teachings telling us how to do and every conflict and problems. Thats why I deeply admired Him and trust everything what He says and believe everhthing what He claims!!!!!! :angel:

 

[gingercat]

It has nothing to do with Jesus' teachings.

It has everything to do with Jesus teachings if you are Christian. Jesus' teachings are completely different from the world point of view and teachings. Jesus is teachings telling us how to do and every conflict and problems. Thats why I deeply admired Him and trust everything what He says and believe everhthing what He claims!!!!!! :angel:

 

[Novum]

double

 

[Novum]

It has nothing to do with Jesus' teachings.

It has everything to do with Jesus teachings if you are Christian. Jesus' teachings are completely different from the world point of view and teachings. Jesus is teachings telling us how to do and every conflict and problems. Thats why I deeply admired Him and trust everything what He says and believe everhthing what He claims!!!!!! :angel:

Uhm, gingercat, that's not my post you're quoting there. It was you, yourself, on the previous page of this thread who wrote that.

You seem to have disagreed with your own previous response. :o

 

[gingercat]

I thin it is disingenuous to advise people to avoid going to church - or joining any other supportive community group.

Like I have been saying, christiaianity is not just another community group. We are supposed to be much powerful with His help. If we dont have God's power in us we are not His followers. I have been incourageing young and new Christins to stuchy New Testatment thoroghly and strive to obey everything He teaches. This is supposed to be pastors' job but most of them are not telling them, because most of the christians are not interested in following Him as His servant. He is giving us a lot of responsibilities as His followers. Jesus is telling us that nothing is impossible with His help for His purpose!!!!

 

[gingercat]

I thin it is disingenuous to advise people to avoid going to church - or joining any other supportive community group.

Like I have been saying, christiaianity is not just another community group. We are supposed to be much powerful with His help. If we dont have God's power in us we are not His followers. I have been incourageing young and new Christins to stuchy New Testatment thoroghly and strive to obey everything He teaches. This is supposed to be pastors' job but most of them are not telling them, because most of the christians are not interested in following Him as His servant. He is giving us a lot of responsibilities as His followers. Jesus is telling us that nothing is impossible with His help for His purpose!!!!