AVATAR! a mockery of Christ?

[Lifesong]

I completely agree; I mean, thats all we can really do. Right? Warn them of the possibility that it could cause some conflictions in their walk with God depending on how stable their faith is.

 

[jasoncran]

i was warned when i watched it, and i wasnt bothered by it.

 

[JamesG]

'
I must have been the most fortunate Christian on the planet. I went into Avatar totally cold. I was with my brother and family and they wanted to watch it. I thought it was a children's movie. That's how clueless I was. I was surprised to find that it was a Science Fiction movie. I had no idea about the hullabaloo about it having anti-US military elements and New Age elements. I know what both of those things are. But i saw none of that in the movie. It was like they went to an outback somewhere and were around some natives who had their own religion. The humans certainly showed no religion other than their greed for the mineral.

One of the first things that Scully says is that the security force was made up of FORMER marines. The first time the matter of the religion of the natives came up, it was corporation execs talking about the tree being their God. And I remember clearly Jake trying to pray to the tree, because he still was under the impression that the tree was their God. Naytiri tells him that the tree just keeps the balance of nature and that's all. At the end of the movie, when the forest creatures are sent by the tree to keep the humans from destroying the balance of nature, Naytiri thinks that the tree did answer Jakes prayers, AND IS SURPRISED, because it is NOT part of her religion. I remember these things clearly.

I have the DVD. I am going to watch it again with this controversy in mind and see if I can see what I didn't see before. I will be looking for things this time. And I will be taking notes. This time I will be able to quote directly from the movie, rather than from memory as before. It is strange that so many are concerned that the movie will hinder the faith of some. Yet when I watched the movie, I saw none of the things that they are concerned about. And I am not clueless about anti-Americanism or the New Age Movement. I have to wonder if I am really that stupid or naive, and how many others had the same experience that I had, or if perhaps what the people who are bringing up these things think that they saw in the movie is not really there at all. I will let you know what I see after the fact.

JamesG

 

[jasoncran]

i did see that as well for the most part, it was anti-war. and somewhat pro enviromental worship to a degree.

 

[Mike]

'
And I am not clueless about anti-Americanism or the New Age Movement. I have to wonder if I am really that stupid or naive, and how many others had the same experience that I had, or if perhaps what the people who are bringing up these things think that they saw in the movie is not really there at all. I will let you know what I see after the fact.JamesG

Let's start with the name of the film which likely wasn't coincidence.
Avatar from Wikipedia:
In Hinduism, Avatar or Avat?ra (Devanagari ?????, Sanskrit for "descent" [viz., from heaven to earth]) refers to a deliberate descent of a deity from heaven to earth, and is mostly translated into English as "incarnation", but more accurately as "appearance" or "manifestation".[1]

The term is most often associated with Vishnu, though it has also come to be associated with other deities.[2] Varying lists of avatars of Vishnu appear in Hindu scriptures, including the ten Dashavatara of the Garuda Purana and the twenty-two avatars in the Bhagavata Purana, though the latter adds that the incarnations of Vishnu are innumerable.[3] The avatars of Vishnu are a primary component of Vaishnavism. An early reference to avatar, and to avatar doctrine, is in the Bhagavad Gita.[4]

Shiva and Ganesha are also described as descending in the form of avatars. The various manifestations of Devi, the Divine Mother principal in Hinduism, are also described as avatars or incarnations by some scholars and followers of Shaktism.[4][5] The avatars of Vishnu carry a greater theological prominence than those of other deities, which some scholars perceive to be imitative of the Vishnu avatar lists.

Personally, I'm more concerned by subtle promotions of anti-Christian theology than I am of blatant evil. These tend to creep in to the psyche of unsuspecting targets more than the obvious ones. I don't know you well enough to know if I should be surprised by your lack of insight into the themes. New Ageism is all about a connection between the earth and it's inhabitants. This was a very obvious theme of the movie.

Actually, when I saw it, I thought "This is 'Dances With Wolves" in another world instead of another time! If you saw "Dances With Wolves", you would have to see the similarities. In that movie, a military hero is placed in a land with the Native Americans. He is bent on the belief of the white people that the Indians are blood thirsty and spiritually crazed. He comes to understand them deeper, getting immersed into their culture and eventually joins their cause, going on to live with them and actually fighting his own people. Sound vaguely familiar???

So now we have Avatar which ups the ante on spiritism. The protagonist comes to empathize with their plight and believes in their theology. The message? Don't be so dismissive and judgmental of other faiths. It is virtuous to embrace them. Specific to this movie, we should accept new ageism and not reject it. This is the "enlightened" approach to the theology that opposes the Christian doctrine.

With regard to the military statement by Avatar...

One of the first things that Scully says is that the security force was made up of FORMER marines.

It doesn't matter that they were "former" marines. They represented military efforts and their mindset. They were ruthless with one mission: to take resources from a world by force, justifying it by saying the inhabitants were actually the bloodthirsty ones. This is sort of like the claim that a certain world power here on earth are taking OIL by force under the guise of defeating terrorism. The message of Avatar: The military is bad. Officers in the military are ruthless and want to kill with any opportunity they can find. They oppress and destroy nations with no regard for life. While America wasn't specifically stated, it was implied. They painted military personnel and their ambitions with a pretty broad brush and a negative one.

I'll be anxious to see your response to this post when you have viewed it again.

Thanks, James!

 

[Nick]

it was anti-war. and somewhat pro enviromental worship to a degree.

I agree. It was definately to an extent left-wing propaganda. The question is how one interprets that - is it good or bad? We tend to view propaganda in a negative light, but that does not mean that it is always necessarily bad. People are complaining that it was promoting the left-wing agenda - very true, but I find it interesting that a lot of people are not having the same reactions to lots of pro-war films that are obviously right-wing propaganda. Interesting.

Personally, I'm more concerned by subtle promotions of anti-Christian theology than I am of blatant evil. These tend to creep in to the psyche of unsuspecting targets more than the obvious ones.

An excellent point.
In Modern History class at the moment, we are analysing Leni Riefenstahl's Nazi propaganda film "Triumph of the Will". It is a mastery of film work, truely an art. It's a shame that it clearly promotes such an evil cause. But the most dangerous thing about it, is not only the content, but more so the way it has been edited and camera angles etc - these are much more subitle, for example having the camera always looking up at Hitler with halo-type lights and an eagle behind him, to subconciously promote him as some kind of God. This part, more than the actual horrific message that is being not-so-subitly promoted in the film is far more dangerious as it is not as noticeable and more easily creeps into unsuspecting minds.

 

[Nick]

I also wanted to add, that like Triumph of the Will, not matter what you think of the message, you have to admit it is a solid and excellent piece of art, and should be regarded as such. Art is always subjective to the creator's feelings, and he is just expressing his ideas. I'm not sure whether James Cameron actually was consiously thinking "let's show how bad the US military is and make a film depicting them negatively, and lets make a film that promotes environmentalism". I'm thinking - like most forms of art - it was created by the artist who just created what he thought was an excellent piece of art, and of course art is a good canvas for personal feelings to get in there, more subconciously than conciously IMO. That's my opinion anyway. I'm sure others will have other viewpoints.

 

[jasoncran]

if i thought for second that avatar was extremely anti-war, i wouldnt have finished watching that moive.

as you know i hate war, but i know sometimes it must be fought. and when people are so anti-war that they cant understand that basic fact. then i have a problem with that person, so long as they are rather rude in stating that idea

 

[Mike]

'
And I am not clueless about anti-Americanism or the New Age Movement. I have to wonder if I am really that stupid or naive, and how many others had the same experience that I had, or if perhaps what the people who are bringing up these things think that they saw in the movie is not really there at all. I will let you know what I see after the fact.JamesG

Let's start with the name of the film which likely wasn't coincidence.
Avatar from Wikipedia:
In Hinduism, Avatar or Avat?ra (Devanagari ?????, Sanskrit for "descent" [viz., from heaven to earth]) refers to a deliberate descent of a deity from heaven to earth, and is mostly translated into English as "incarnation", but more accurately as "appearance" or "manifestation".[1]

The term is most often associated with Vishnu, though it has also come to be associated with other deities.[2] Varying lists of avatars of Vishnu appear in Hindu scriptures, including the ten Dashavatara of the Garuda Purana and the twenty-two avatars in the Bhagavata Purana, though the latter adds that the incarnations of Vishnu are innumerable.[3] The avatars of Vishnu are a primary component of Vaishnavism. An early reference to avatar, and to avatar doctrine, is in the Bhagavad Gita.[4]

Shiva and Ganesha are also described as descending in the form of avatars. The various manifestations of Devi, the Divine Mother principal in Hinduism, are also described as avatars or incarnations by some scholars and followers of Shaktism.[4][5] The avatars of Vishnu carry a greater theological prominence than those of other deities, which some scholars perceive to be imitative of the Vishnu avatar lists.

Personally, I'm more concerned by subtle promotions of anti-Christian theology than I am of blatant evil. These tend to creep in to the psyche of unsuspecting targets more than the obvious ones. I don't know you well enough to know if I should be surprised by your lack of insight into the themes. New Ageism is all about a connection between the earth and it's inhabitants. This was a very obvious theme of the movie.

Actually, when I saw it, I thought "This is 'Dances With Wolves" in another world instead of another time! If you saw "Dances With Wolves", you would have to see the similarities. In that movie, a military hero is placed in a land with the Native Americans. He is bent on the belief of the white people that the Indians are blood thirsty and spiritually crazed. He comes to understand them deeper, getting immersed into their culture and eventually joins their cause, going on to live with them and actually fighting his own people. Sound vaguely familiar???

So now we have Avatar which ups the ante on spiritism. The protagonist comes to empathize with their plight and believes in their theology. The message? Don't be so dismissive and judgmental of other faiths. It is virtuous to embrace them. Specific to this movie, we should accept new ageism and not reject it. This is the "enlightened" approach to the theology that opposes the Christian doctrine.

With regard to the military statement by Avatar...

One of the first things that Scully says is that the security force was made up of FORMER marines.

It doesn't matter that they were "former" marines. They represented military efforts and their mindset. They were ruthless with one mission: to take resources from a world by force, justifying it by saying the inhabitants were actually the bloodthirsty ones. This is sort of like the claim that a certain world power here on earth are taking OIL by force under the guise of defeating terrorism. The message of Avatar: The military is bad. Officers in the military are ruthless and want to kill with any opportunity they can find. They oppress and destroy nations with no regard for life. While America wasn't specifically stated, it was implied. They painted military personnel and their ambitions with a pretty broad brush and a negative one.

I'll be anxious to see your response to this post when you have viewed it again.

Thanks, James!

Good comments above. I just wanted stress the attitude that this and other films portray of military officers. It reminds me "Crimson Tide" with Denzel Washington and Gene Hackman. They portray the upper-ranking Hackman character as wanting to launch a nuclear torpedo just for the sake of launching it. I don't believe the military goes around craving the opportunity to kill as portrayed in both films.

 

[Mike]

I'm not sure whether James Cameron actually was consiously thinking "let's show how bad the US military is and make a film depicting them negatively, and lets make a film that promotes environmentalism". I'm thinking - like most forms of art - it was created by the artist who just created what he thought was an excellent piece of art, and of course art is a good canvas for personal feelings to get in there, more subconciously than conciously IMO. That's my opinion anyway. I'm sure others will have other viewpoints.

Not that Wikipedia is the end-all, but consider this from Cameron's wiki:

Throughout Cameron's career, several of his films have had recurring themes and subtexts. These include: the prospects of nuclear holocaust (the Skynet takeover scenario from both Terminator films),[54] attempts to reconcile humanity with technology (as seen in Aliens and Terminator 2: Judgment Day), humanity repeating the same mistakes,[55] the dangers of corporate greed,[56] strong female characters (Sarah Connor and Ellen Ripley being the most famous),[57] a strong romance subplot,[58] anti-corporation (Aliens, Avatar), anti-military (The Abyss, Avatar), and an undercurrent of feminism. This was also present with Jamie Lee Curtis's character in True Lies and Kate Winslet's role in Titanic, in which she served as the main protagonist and narrator.

I'm not saying they are all bad, for example "humanity repeating the same mistakes". We shouldn't. But take that with his "anti-military" themes and you have our military as his antagonists making those mistakes.

 

[Nick]

if i thought for second that avatar was extremely anti-war, i wouldnt have finished watching that moive.

as you know i hate war, but i know sometimes it must be fought. and when people are so anti-war that they cant understand that basic fact. then i have a problem with that person, so long as they are rather rude in stating that idea

There is a time for war and a time for peace, and don't we all hate war. I would try and avoid war at all costs, but if it needs to be done, then it needs to be done.

I quite like the following quotes:

Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired, signifies in the final sense a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed.
Dwight D. Eisenhower

I must study politics and war that my sons may have liberty to study mathematics and philosophy.
John Adams

Never think that war, no matter how necessary, nor how justified, is not a crime.
Ernest Hemingway

I'm not sure whether James Cameron actually was consiously thinking "let's show how bad the US military is and make a film depicting them negatively, and lets make a film that promotes environmentalism". I'm thinking - like most forms of art - it was created by the artist who just created what he thought was an excellent piece of art, and of course art is a good canvas for personal feelings to get in there, more subconciously than conciously IMO. That's my opinion anyway. I'm sure others will have other viewpoints.

Not that Wikipedia is the end-all, but consider this from Cameron's wiki:

Throughout Cameron's career, several of his films have had recurring themes and subtexts. These include: the prospects of nuclear holocaust (the Skynet takeover scenario from both Terminator films),[54] attempts to reconcile humanity with technology (as seen in Aliens and Terminator 2: Judgment Day), humanity repeating the same mistakes,[55] the dangers of corporate greed,[56] strong female characters (Sarah Connor and Ellen Ripley being the most famous),[57] a strong romance subplot,[58] anti-corporation (Aliens, Avatar), anti-military (The Abyss, Avatar), and an undercurrent of feminism. This was also present with Jamie Lee Curtis's character in True Lies and Kate Winslet's role in Titanic, in which she served as the main protagonist and narrator.

I'm not saying they are all bad, for example "humanity repeating the same mistakes". We shouldn't. But take that with his "anti-military" themes and you have our military as his antagonists making those mistakes.

I agree that it is a recurring theme, but I don't think it was as concious as others do. But that is definately his ivew.

 

[jasoncran]

hemmingway not exactly a wise person in my opinon, a depressed alcoholic who sadly commited suicide just as his daughter the actress mariel hemmingway did.

i like the ike quote, i can agree with him.

 

[Mike]

hemmingway not exactly a wise person in my opinon, a depressed alcoholic who sadly commited suicide just as his daughter the actress mariel hemmingway did.

i like the ike quote, i can agree with him.

Jason, I just want to make sure you understand what Hemingway was saying. Or maybe you or Nick can correct me.

Never think that war, no matter how necessary, nor how justified, is not a crime.
Ernest Hemingway

Taking away the double-negatives = Every war is a crime."

That's how the statement reads. Jason, do you believe that? I don't think you do which is why I ask. Strip away the theories by some that the U.S. attacked the Iraqi army after they invaded Kuwait for the main purpose of protecting the oil for selfish reasons. Dismiss that theory, even if someone believes it. Iraq invaded and seized control of a neighboring nation. Was it a "crime" that (as the world's one superpower, we responded and freed the nation of Kuwait from their captors? This, in my opinion, is just one example of a war that WAS NOT a crime. No, not every war is a crime.

If someone responds to this, can we get back to Avatar after you do? I didn't mean to go off on this tangent. totopic

 

[Nick]

Taking away the double-negatives = Every war is a crime."

That's how I see it.

That's how the statement reads. Jason, do you believe that? I don't think you do which is why I ask. Strip away the theories by some that the U.S. attacked the Iraqi army after they invaded Kuwait for the main purpose of protecting the oil for selfish reasons. Dismiss that theory, even if someone believes it. Iraq invaded and seized control of a neighboring nation. Was it a "crime" that (as the world's one superpower, we responded and freed the nation of Kuwait from their captors? This, in my opinion, is just one example of a war that WAS NOT a crime. No, not every war is a crime.

The U.S. wants to protect its oil reserves in the middle east, that's the only thing keeping the US at bay. I don't even want to think what will happen when the oil runs out there. I think that was a lame excuse by the U.S. just to wage war etc etc. As the quote suggests, even if a war is justified, such as the war in Afgahnistan (IMO) that doesn't make it not a crime.

If someone responds to this, can we get back to Avatar after you do? I didn't mean to go off on this tangent. totopic

Yes, I agree.

totopic

 

[Mike]

'
And I am not clueless about anti-Americanism or the New Age Movement. I have to wonder if I am really that stupid or naive, and how many others had the same experience that I had, or if perhaps what the people who are bringing up these things think that they saw in the movie is not really there at all. I will let you know what I see after the fact.JamesG

Let's start with the name of the film which likely wasn't coincidence.
Avatar from Wikipedia:
In Hinduism, Avatar or Avat?ra (Devanagari ?????, Sanskrit for "descent" [viz., from heaven to earth]) refers to a deliberate descent of a deity from heaven to earth, and is mostly translated into English as "incarnation", but more accurately as "appearance" or "manifestation".[1]

The term is most often associated with Vishnu, though it has also come to be associated with other deities.[2] Varying lists of avatars of Vishnu appear in Hindu scriptures, including the ten Dashavatara of the Garuda Purana and the twenty-two avatars in the Bhagavata Purana, though the latter adds that the incarnations of Vishnu are innumerable.[3] The avatars of Vishnu are a primary component of Vaishnavism. An early reference to avatar, and to avatar doctrine, is in the Bhagavad Gita.[4]

Shiva and Ganesha are also described as descending in the form of avatars. The various manifestations of Devi, the Divine Mother principal in Hinduism, are also described as avatars or incarnations by some scholars and followers of Shaktism.[4][5] The avatars of Vishnu carry a greater theological prominence than those of other deities, which some scholars perceive to be imitative of the Vishnu avatar lists.

Personally, I'm more concerned by subtle promotions of anti-Christian theology than I am of blatant evil. These tend to creep in to the psyche of unsuspecting targets more than the obvious ones. I don't know you well enough to know if I should be surprised by your lack of insight into the themes. New Ageism is all about a connection between the earth and it's inhabitants. This was a very obvious theme of the movie.

Actually, when I saw it, I thought "This is 'Dances With Wolves" in another world instead of another time! If you saw "Dances With Wolves", you would have to see the similarities. In that movie, a military hero is placed in a land with the Native Americans. He is bent on the belief of the white people that the Indians are blood thirsty and spiritually crazed. He comes to understand them deeper, getting immersed into their culture and eventually joins their cause, going on to live with them and actually fighting his own people. Sound vaguely familiar???

So now we have Avatar which ups the ante on spiritism. The protagonist comes to empathize with their plight and believes in their theology. The message? Don't be so dismissive and judgmental of other faiths. It is virtuous to embrace them. Specific to this movie, we should accept new ageism and not reject it. This is the "enlightened" approach to the theology that opposes the Christian doctrine.

With regard to the military statement by Avatar...

One of the first things that Scully says is that the security force was made up of FORMER marines.

It doesn't matter that they were "former" marines. They represented military efforts and their mindset. They were ruthless with one mission: to take resources from a world by force, justifying it by saying the inhabitants were actually the bloodthirsty ones. This is sort of like the claim that a certain world power here on earth are taking OIL by force under the guise of defeating terrorism. The message of Avatar: The military is bad. Officers in the military are ruthless and want to kill with any opportunity they can find. They oppress and destroy nations with no regard for life. While America wasn't specifically stated, it was implied. They painted military personnel and their ambitions with a pretty broad brush and a negative one.

I'll be anxious to see your response to this post when you have viewed it again.

Thanks, James!

After all that warring talk, I just want to reset things back to the movie. After all my criticism, I will say this was the most phenomenal visual experience I've ever had with a film. I just wish I would have had my iPod so I could listen to something Worthy while taking in the visuals. Better yet would have been if I was given a free pass with my iPod and didn't put any $$$ into their pockets. ;)

 

[jasoncran]

nick you just called me a criminal!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

and yes i saw that. thus the comment on why i said its not wise to quote a suicidal drunk, and also coke addict. though he was a genius of a writer.

now back to topic.

 

[Nick]

nick you just called me a criminal!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

and yes i saw that. thus the comment on why i said its not wise to quote a suicidal drunk, and also coke addict. though he was a genius of a writer.

now back to topic.

In a way, yes.

--

Just becasue he was drunk doesn't make it not true

--

Gee, what have we come to? Even the mods are leading us off topic.

totopic

 

[jasoncran]

:D somebody got to break the rules once in a while.

i never saw the begining of avatar. i will watch this again. i missed about twenty minutes.

 

[kiwimac]

Avatar is many things but NOT a mockery of Christ,

 

[Nick]

Avatar is many things but NOT a mockery of Christ,

Explain?