Babylon the great.

[Shilohsfoal]

Rev 18;24
And in her was found the blood of prophets,and of saints,and of all that were slain upon the earth.

For any one who thinks Rome or the US or any other city in this world is Babylon the great ,how do you explain the following verse away?Does all that were slain upon the earth in Rev 18;24 above not include all the rightous blood shed upon the earth in the following verse?

Mt 23;35
That upon you may come all the rightous blood shed upon the earth,from the blood of rightous Abel unto the blood of Zechariah son of Barachias,whom ye slew between the temple and the alter.

How can you overlook verses such as these after they have been pointed out?
Which verse are you willing to say is wrong?

Oh Jerusalem ,Jerusalem,thou that killest the prophets,and stonest them that are sent unto thee

 

[Osgiliath]

Originally posted by Shilohsfoal
For any one who thinks Rome or the US or any other city in this world is Babylon the great ,how do you explain the following verse away?Does all that were slain upon the earth in Rev 18;24 above not include all the rightous blood shed upon the earth in the following verse?

Revelation 17:1 "And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters"

17:15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

Simple. Babylon "on the whole" is not "one city". However, a one-world political/religious system has to have its headquarters somewhere, and I believe Jerusalem will be "the seat" of the false messiah, and the "center" of operations. However, as the verses indicate above, Babylon is global, as the great whore sitteth upon many waters.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

Originally posted by Shilohsfoal
For any one who thinks Rome or the US or any other city in this world is Babylon the great ,how do you explain the following verse away?Does all that were slain upon the earth in Rev 18;24 above not include all the rightous blood shed upon the earth in the following verse?

Revelation 17:1 "And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters"

17:15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

Simple. Babylon "on the whole" is not "one city". However, a one-world political/religious system has to have its headquarters somewhere, and I believe Jerusalem will be "the seat" of the false messiah, and the "center" of operations. However, as the verses indicate above, Babylon is global, as the great whore sitteth upon many waters.

Ive never read of a one world political/religious system in the bible.
I dont see in 17;15 where it say that Babylon the great is the world.
Peoples ,multitudes,nations and tongues is discribing people ,not the earth.

The seven hills the woman sits on is discribing the earth though.
It discibes the terain the city sits upon.

So which verse are you willing to say is wrong.Rev 18;24 or Mt 23;35?

 

[Osgiliath]

Hehe :D. I should rephrase by saying; “global - as in the ‘people' of the worldâ€Â. I didn’t mean the Earth - i.e. - “the planet†as in terrafirma.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

Hehe :D. I should rephrase by saying; “global - as in the ‘people' of the worldâ€Â. I didn’t mean the Earth - i.e. - “the planet†as in terrafirma.

So you dont think this can have anything to do with all those peoples of the nations ,tongues that have wonderd the world over to the goverment that today rules Jerusalem?
Could this babylon spoken of as containing the blood of prophets and all that were slain upon the earth in rev 18;24 not be ruled by those religious leaders of Judaism Jesus is speaking of in Mt 23;26-37?
If this is the case then the religion of Babylon the great would be Judaism as it is today.

If the verses I quoted in the beginning of this thread are not speaking of the same people and city then one of these verses would have to be incorrect.The only way both can be correct is if Jerusalem is this Babylon the great .

Also something to take note of is the fact that the national symbol of the Israeli goverment is and has been the symbol of Judaism.
They call it the star of David.They must believe thier own goverment is that bright and morning star or why else would they give him that symbol?Or should I say,he has taken on that symbol himself?

 

[Osgiliath]

Originally posted by Shilohsfoal
So you dont think this can have anything to do with all those peoples of the nations ,tongues that have wonderd the world over to the goverment that today rules Jerusalem?
Could this babylon spoken of as containing the blood of prophets and all that were slain upon the earth in rev 18;24 not be ruled by those religious leaders of Judaism Jesus is speaking of in Mt 23;26-37?
If this is the case then the religion of Babylon the great would be Judaism as it is today.

If the verses I quoted in the beginning of this thread are not speaking of the same people and city then one of these verses would have to be incorrect.The only way both can be correct is if Jerusalem is this Babylon the great .

Also something to take note of is the fact that the national symbol of the Israeli goverment is and has been the symbol of Judaism.
They call it the star of David.They must believe thier own goverment is that bright and morning star or why else would they give him that symbol?Or should I say,he has taken on that symbol himself?

Actually, I agree with you, but we just have a slight difference when it comes to specifics. Babylon is represented in Revelation 13:1-8 as a leopard-like beast that will rise out of the sea. The “sea†from which Babylon will rise represents “peoples, multitudes, nations and languages†(Revelation 17:15). Babylon will arise from within the nations of the world. After the first four trumpets wreak havoc, destruction, and chaos in the world, the political leaders of the world will submit to the authority of Babylon. The Bible predicts this amazing turnover with these words: “. . . And he [Babylon, the leopard-like beast] was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation.†(Revelation 13:7). When the lamb-like beast arrives at the fifth trump masquerading as “The Messiah†(Johnny on the spot showing up just in the nick of time) he will head this one-world government from his established headquarters in Jerusalem (among those claiming to be the chosen people, but do lie and are not of the tribe of Judah [Jew]:

Revelation 2:9 “I know thy tribulation, and thy poverty (but thou art rich), and the blasphemy of them that say they are Jews, and they art not, but are a synagogue of Satan.â€Â

Revelation 3:9 “Behold, I give of the synagogue of Satan, of them that say they are Jews, and they are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.â€Â

With the false messiah’s headquarters among the false chosen people, he will deceive the world into believing he is the true messiah; and most of humanity will believe him.......with many probably declaring; “Hey, the Jews were right all along.....their messiah is the true messiah after all†. Hence their synagogue will become (literally) the synagogue of Satan.

Are you starting to see how plain and simple this is?

 

[Shilohsfoal]

Originally posted by Shilohsfoal
So you dont think this can have anything to do with all those peoples of the nations ,tongues that have wonderd the world over to the goverment that today rules Jerusalem?
Could this babylon spoken of as containing the blood of prophets and all that were slain upon the earth in rev 18;24 not be ruled by those religious leaders of Judaism Jesus is speaking of in Mt 23;26-37?
If this is the case then the religion of Babylon the great would be Judaism as it is today.

If the verses I quoted in the beginning of this thread are not speaking of the same people and city then one of these verses would have to be incorrect.The only way both can be correct is if Jerusalem is this Babylon the great .

Also something to take note of is the fact that the national symbol of the Israeli goverment is and has been the symbol of Judaism.
They call it the star of David.They must believe thier own goverment is that bright and morning star or why else would they give him that symbol?Or should I say,he has taken on that symbol himself?

Actually, I agree with you, but we just have a slight difference when it comes to specifics. Babylon is represented in Revelation 13:1-8 as a leopard-like beast that will rise out of the sea. The “sea†from which Babylon will rise represents “peoples, multitudes, nations and languages†(Revelation 17:15). Babylon will arise from within the nations of the world. After the first four trumpets wreak havoc, destruction, and chaos in the world, the political leaders of the world will submit to the authority of Babylon. The Bible predicts this amazing turnover with these words: “. . . And he [Babylon, the leopard-like beast] was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation.†(Revelation 13:7). When the lamb-like beast arrives at the fifth trump masquerading as “The Messiah†(Johnny on the spot showing up just in the nick of time) he will head this one-world government from his established headquarters in Jerusalem (among those claiming to be the chosen people, but do lie and are not of the tribe of Judah [Jew]:

Revelation 2:9 “I know thy tribulation, and thy poverty (but thou art rich), and the blasphemy of them that say they are Jews, and they art not, but are a synagogue of Satan.â€Â

Revelation 3:9 “Behold, I give of the synagogue of Satan, of them that say they are Jews, and they are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.â€Â

With the false messiah’s headquarters among the false chosen people, he will deceive the world into believing he is the true messiah; and most of humanity will believe him.......with many probably declaring; “Hey, the Jews were right all along.....their messiah is the true messiah after all†. Hence their synagogue will become (literally) the synagogue of Satan.

Are you starting to see how plain and simple this is?

We think alot alike.
I believe he will cause the false chosen people to rule over many,but not the world.
We might see if we stick around alittle longer.
Daniel 11;39
Thus shall he do in the most strong holds with a strange god,whom he shall ackowledge and increase with glory;and he shall cause them to rule over many,and shall devide the land for gain.

 

[Sinthesis]

You should notice that the great whore sits on a beast. It is the beast, not the woman, who is represented by many waters. However, Babylon does symbolize Jerusalem; but what does Jerusalem symbolize?

 

[Osgiliath]

Originally posted by Sinthesis
However, Babylon does symbolize Jerusalem; but what does Jerusalem symbolize?

Revelation 11:8 ".....and their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city that symbolically is called Sodom and Egypt, where their Lord was crucified."

Look to OT:

Ezekiel 16:1 "Again the word of the LORD came to me: "Son of man, make known to Jerusalem her abominations"

Ezekiel 16:46-47 "And your elder sister is Samaria, who lived with her daughters to the north of you; and your younger sister, who lived to the south of you, is Sodom with her daughters. Not only did you walk in their ways and do according to their abominations; within a very little time you were more corrupt than they in all your ways.

And Isaiah, speaking of Jerusalem:

Isaiah 1:10 Hear the word of the LORD, you rulers of Sodom!
Give ear to the teaching of our God, you people of Gomorrah!

Revelation 11 concerns the two witnesses, so this is alluding to the two angels appearing in Sodom in Genesis 18-19. Just as God sends his two messengers (angelos = messenger) to Sodom before its destruction, in the End-time God will send his two messengers in the like of the two witness-prophets to the great city before its destruction.

Moses and Aaron were sent to Egypt and its people, like Sodom before them, were not exactly hospitable to God's messengers.

I think it is safe to say that most people know what the “sins†of these two cities were. So we have a “symbolic†OT parallel given for our admonition:

Paul writes concerning the events of the Old Testament:

1 Corinthians 10:11 “Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.ââ‚Â

 

[Shilohsfoal]

You should notice that the great whore sits on a beast. It is the beast, not the woman, who is represented by many waters. However, Babylon does symbolize Jerusalem; but what does Jerusalem symbolize?

Jerusalem.

 

[Matthew24:34]

Will ANYONE acknowledge the timing of the Book of Revelation? The Babylon found there is a first-century city! Was not John shown those things which were to SHORTLY take place; was the time not THEN near?

Matthew24:34

 

[Vic C.]

Hi Matthew,

Try not to get too angry. The full Preterist view is a tough pill to shallow.

Oh, yeah, I say Jerusalem also. :D

 

[Shilohsfoal]

Will ANYONE acknowledge the timing of the Book of Revelation? The Babylon found there is a first-century city! Was not John shown those things which were to SHORTLY take place; was the time not THEN near?

Matthew24:34

Rev1;1
The revelation of Jesus Christ,which God gave unto him,to show unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass;and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John.

Do you know what servants?

Rev1;6
And hath made us kings and priests unto God and the Father;to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever,Amen.

Are you a king and a priest?

Rev 17;18
And the woman which thou sawest is that great city,which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

Does Babylon rule over you?

Rev 20;4
And I saw thrones,and they sat upon them,and judment was given unto them;and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus,and for the word of God,and which had not worshiped the beast,neigther his image,neither had recieved his mark upon thier foreheads,or in thier hands;and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Were you beheaded for the witness of Jesus and for not worshiping the image of the beast and then resurrected?
These who overcome are those kings .To note,they sit on thrones and Im sure they know when the time is.

 

[Osgiliath]

Originally posted by Matthew 24:34
Will ANYONE acknowledge the timing of the Book of Revelation? The Babylon found there is a first-century city! Was not John shown those things which were to SHORTLY take place; was the time not THEN near?

First of all, you seem to pick and choose what is to be taken literally, and what is to be taken allegorically; so it fits nice and squarely into your personal interpretation. You speak as if we are not sharp enough, or enlightened enough to understand the literal meaning of SHORTLY, and THEN, and THIS GENERATION. Yet you refuse to follow your own rules of interpretation. I’ll ask you the same question, using your rules. Is it so difficult to acknowledge that:

** "Christ will return in the same way in which He ascended into heaven" (Acts 1:11).

His ascension was literal and physical; therefore, it seems certain that His return will share at least those characteristics.

** "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God" (1 Thessalonians 4:16)

** "He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him." (Revelation 1:7)


** "For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man." (Matthew 24:27)

Also, I think you're entirely missing the concept of past-tense language in the book of Revelation. Everything is written in the past tense; i.e., "then I saw...," "he said to me...," "I looked...," etc. However, a clear read of Revelation 1:10 will solve the mystery. John states:

Revelation 1:10 "I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet"

John was taken (in the Spirit) from the first century to the "day of the Lord" (Thousand Year Period - 2 Peter 3:8). He then was shown all of the events proceeding it (and even the future), He wrote down what he saw (past tense) when he was taken back to his present day. And what he wrote, those future things that he saw (past tense to him), were written down in our Bible. And today we see prophecy in the book of Revelation, things that shall happen to us, but that had already happened right before John's eyes. Revelation 1:10 explains why everything is written as though it had already happened. But it shall happen. This is something called "prophecy" :D .

Now, concerning your user name , and the statement "This Generation......"

Luke 21:29-32
29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;
30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.
31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

What generation "shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled"? The generation who: "when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand". When ye see what "things come to pass"? The things that Jesus just listed in the verses prior to the "Parable of the Fig Tree"

Observe those things that Jesus said had to happen before the end. If even one thing in the below list of things that Jesus said must happen before the end, does not happen, your theory cannot be right. I have highlight some events that had definitely not happened to the generation then alive when Christ spoke the below:

Mark 13:1-31
1 And as he went out of the temple, one of his disciples saith unto him, Master, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here!
2 And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives over against the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately,
4 Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?
5 And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any man deceive you:
6 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
7 And when ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars, be ye not troubled: for such things must needs be; but the end shall not be yet.
8 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and there shall be famines and troubles: these are the beginnings of sorrows.
9 But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.
10 And the gospel must first be published among all nations.
11 But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.
12 Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death.
13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:
15 And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house:
16 And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment.
17 But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
18 And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter.
19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.
20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.
21 And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not:
22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.
23 But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
28 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near:
29 So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors.
30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.
31 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

"This generation" is the generation that shall see "these things" and it is not the generation that He was addressing, for they never saw those things (i.e. He is saying that once the "branch becomes tender and puts out its leaves we can know that summer is near" He is not saying “the branch is now tender and thus summer is near†). You are just playing word games, and not taking into account the surrounding context, thus you misinterpret the passage.



PS - The preterist' claim that Revelation was emphatically penned prior to 70 AD is nothing but a "he said, she said" discussion. From my research over the years, I personally believe it was written after 70 AD, but even if it was written before 70 AD, it wouldn’t change a thing from my perspective. Your view however would be wiped out like a house of cards in a Cat 5 Hurricane if it was somehow "verified" that Revelation was penned post-70 AD. Risky business :o

 

[Vic C.]

Ok, I am not a preterist, but I can't ignore history either. Here are some facts:

LAODICE'A (la-od-i-se'a). Of the several cities named Laodicea in Syria and Asia Minor, only one is mentioned in the Scriptures, namely, the one situated in the confines of Phrygia and Lydia, on the banks of the Lycus, and about ninety miles E of Ephesus-not far from Colossae. After having been successively called Diosopolis and Rhoas, it was named Laodicea in honor of Laodice, the wife of Antiochus II (261-246 B.C.), who rebuilt it. It was destroyed by an earthquake (A.D. 66, or earlier) and rebuilt by Marcus Aurelius. It was the seat of a Christian church (Col 2:1; 4:13,15-16; Rev 1:11). It is now a heap of ruins, called by the Turks Eski-hissar, or "old castle."

http://www.pilgrimtours.com/greece/info/laodicea.htm

... and from a different source, netbible.org http://net.bible.org/dictionary.php?word=Laodicea

Laodicea = "justice of the people"

1) a city of Phrygia, situated on the river Lycus not far from
Colosse. It was destroyed by an earthquake in or earlier and rebuilt
by Marcus Aurelius. It was the seat of the Christian church.

Both sources cite Marcus Aurelius (a joint emperor of the Roman Empire) as the one responsible for rebuilding Laodicea. He was named Emperor in 161AD.

No city, no church, which means that there could not have been a church in the 90s AD, when many believed Revelations was written. However, as Osgiliath said, it doesn't change my position either. I still believe what occurred in 70AD was just a type of coming, a shadow of some future events.

Then again, I don't believe in a future 70th. week either. :D

 

[Osgiliath]

Originally posted by Vic C.
I still believe what occurred in 70AD was just a type of coming, a shadow of some future events.

Completely agree with that statement. It was a “typeâ€Â; just as when Nebuchadnezzar did the same thing:

Jeremiah 52:12 “Now in the fifth month, in the tenth day of the month, which was the nineteenth year of Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon, came Nebuzaradan, captain of the guard, which served the king of Babylon, into Jerusalem,
13 And burned the house of the LORD, and the king's house; and all the houses of Jerusalem, and all the houses of the great men, burned he with fire:
14 And all the army of the Chaldeans, that were with the captain of the guard, brake down all the walls of Jerusalem round about.â€Â

It’s happened twice. 'Third time's a charm' .

Just a side note here. The number THREE in God’s Word always represents Jesus Christ and Resurrection. Here are a few examples:

** Three times a voice from heaven spoke to Him.

** The wise men brought Him three gifts.

** He was tempted three times in the wilderness, where He replied “It Is Written†three times (He IS the Word; John 1:1)

** Jesus brought three 1. PETER, 2. JAMES, 3. JOHN with Him upon the Mount of Transfiguration, where they witnessed three: 1. JESUS, 2. MOSES, 3. ELIJAH

** He is 1. THE WAY, 2. THE TRUTH, 3. THE LIFE.

** He prayed three times at the Garden of Gethsemane (Matthew 26:36-45).

** Peter denied Him three times.

** The Gospel of Christ is threefold; 1. DEATH, 2. BURIAL, 3. RESURRECTION.

** There were three crucified at Calvary.

** There were three hours of darkness when He was crucified.

** He was in the tomb three days and three nights

** The 1. FATHER, 2. SON, 3. HOLY SPIRIT – Trinity.

** Jesus was 33 years old when He was crucified, following His three year ministry.

** There were three feast days 1. PASSOVER, 2. PENTECOST, 3. TABERNACLES - all symbolic of the coming “Passover Lamb†who would “tabernacle†with man (John 1:14, 1 Corinthians 5:7).



The significance of “Resurrection†is also represented by the number THREE.

** Jesus raised three people from the dead during His earthly ministry:

1. The widow’s son.
2. Jairus’ daughter.
3. Lazarus.

There are exactly three cases in the Old Testament of people being raised from the dead:

I. The son of the widow from Zarephath, whom Elijah resurrected by stretching out over the boy three times.

II. The son of the Shunammite woman, whom Elisha resurrected by putting his

1. Mouth on the child’s mouth
2. Eyes on the child’s eyes
3. Hands on the child’s hands

III. The resurrection of the man who was cast into the sepulcher of Elisha.

****And, last but not least......tying in both Jesus Christ and Resurrection; the THIRD destruction will usher in the Second Coming of Christ and the Resurrection of the saints.


PS - The focal point of God’s Creation is on the THIRD PLANET from the su; the very planet on which the Son of God “tabernacled†(John 1:14). Speculation? Yes. But definitely something to think about :D.

 

[Vic C.]

Hey, in a broader sense, what Antiochus did was a "type" also. ;)