Baptism of the Holy Spirit, is not at salvation

[FreeGrace]

I believe not in sinless perfection, but transgression perfection. Meaning that the only sin that is vital to our salvation is transgressions that are continual in a way that we boast about it and are proud to do it.

Where in the world does this teaching come from??

There is NO sin that is "vital to our salvation". Hebrews completely refutes that notion by teaching that Christ died for sins ONCE FOR ALL.

 

[FreeGrace]

yeah, or pentecostal. Either one. Some of them are crazy but I attend a mildly pentecostal church called calvary chapel. But I have been to some holy roller churches where people are running down the isles and trying to push you over. I don't recommend those.

Those churches need to read 1 Cor 14.

 

[th1b.taylor]

I said this:
"It's unfortunate to cite a verse but fails to provide any exegesis of said verse.

Some people think this verse teaches sinless perfection; that true believers will not continue to sin. Is that your view?

However, let's look at the verse:
" No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God."

OK, the phrase "born of God" refers to the new birth, the result of faith in Christ. Also, the phrase "God's seed remains in them" refers to the same thing; the new nature, which is equivalent to the new birth. To be technical, the believer is a "new creature" or "new creation" per 2 Cor 5:17 simply because they now have a regenerated or born again nature. They still have their human or sin nature as well.

Which is why Paul said this in Gal 5:17 - For the flesh (sinful human nature) desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want.

Where do you suppose the Holy Spirit dwells in the believer? In his body and soul, the flesh? Doesn't seem likely, given Gal 5:17.

More reasonable is the regenerated born again new nature.

Now, back to 1 John 3:9. What John is teaching is that no believer can sin from his new regenerated nature. Which is where the Holy Spirit dwells. So, where does sin come from? The sinful human nature, naturally.

So, in order to not sin, the believer must be in fellowship with the Lord (1 John 1) through confession of sin, and being filled with the Holy Spirit."

Again, no exegesis, just a list of verses, none of which actually support your claims.

As to Lordship salvation, 2 verses completely refute that teaching:
Matt 7:21-23 -
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’
23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

Note that this crowd based their appeal for getting into the kingdom on their works, not on faith. Yet, note they all call Him Lord.

Then, 1 Pet 3:15 -
But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect,

Note that Peter was writing to believers, saved people. And he tells them to "revere" Christ as Lord. Some translations say "sanctify".

The point is that the command is to believers to sanctify or revere Christ as Lord.

Jesus Christ is Lord over everyone, believer and non-believer. When the believer sins, they have put themselves on the throne of their life.

I believe that "Lordship salvation" is a false doctrine. It (subtley) makes works a part of salvation.

My favorite example of what you have taught here involves an example Richard Clarke of Mississippi used in a sermon one day. I liked it so much I have stolen it and repeat it to explain this passage and idea.

I understand that there was a form of punishment used by the Roman Empire in some states that explains this idea, clearly. If the murderer were caught before they were forced to bury it, the corpse of the dead man was tied or strapped to the killer's back of the murder and as the flies planted eggs that hatched Magots the murdered, as it rotted was killing the murderer.

In that same fashion a Christian carries the natural man, the sinner on his back and is, admittedly, still influenced by the corpse that wants us dead. In practice and as a Life Application, when I was without the Holy Spirit, every Friday and Saturday I planned to get drunk and to shack up. From my Salvation event until now, being a Recovered Drunk I have not had a beer not a single sip of the Wild Turkey i love so much.

i still pray for forgiveness, every day, because that old man, that nature, is there but I no longer plan to sin, i just do and I hate myself every time and must turn back, asking my LORD's forgiveness.

 

[FreeGrace]

My favorite example of what you have taught here involves an example Richard Clarke of Mississippi used in a sermon one day. I liked it so much I have stolen it and repeat it to explain this passage and idea.

I understand that there was a form of punishment used by the Roman Empire in some states that explains this idea, clearly. If the murderer were caught before they were forced to bury it, the corpse of the dead man was tied or strapped to the killer's back of the murder and as the flies planted eggs that hatched Magots the murdered, as it rotted was killing the murderer.

In that same fashion a Christian carries the natural man, the sinner on his back and is, admittedly, still influenced by the corpse that wants us dead. In practice and as a Life Application, when I was without the Holy Spirit, every Friday and Saturday I planned to get drunk and to shack up. From my Salvation event until now, being a Recovered Drunk I have not had a beer not a single sip of the Wild Turkey i love so much.

Amen!

i still pray for forgiveness, every day, because that old man, that nature, is there but I no longer plan to sin, i just do and I hate myself every time and must turn back, asking my LORD's forgiveness.

I would say there is no need to pray for forgiveness for sins already confessed. They have been forgiven and you have been cleansed of them, per 1 John 1:9 - If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

Asking for forgiveness is not confessing them. We need to name them. And then He does forgive us.

 

[th1b.taylor]

I would say there is no need to pray for forgiveness for sins already confessed. They have been forgiven and you have been cleansed of them, per 1 John 1:9 - If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

I'm glad you used that verse for Proof Texting but it completely reinforces my position, If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

Do you see that conditional word at the beginning? it is the biggest two letter in the English Language. it is present in my NASB litteral translation as well as in my Young's Litteral Translation, YLT.

I will confess to being as Conservative as I can manage but that is because I believe the Word of God is exactly that and I do not find humor there, He is serious and I will continue to repent. God bless.

 

[godsquadgeek]

The point of this forum is to show by virtue of Scripture the evidence for your points of discussion. Just posting any verse doesn't cut it. You need to show the verse that actually backs up your claim. Faith and belief are two different things and I am suggesting that John 3:16 does not support the point you made.

My point was we were.saved by faith plus repentance , John 3:16 proves the faith part.

 

[godsquadgeek]

I said this:
"It's unfortunate to cite a verse but fails to provide any exegesis of said verse.

Some people think this verse teaches sinless perfection; that true believers will not continue to sin. Is that your view?

However, let's look at the verse:
" No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God."

OK, the phrase "born of God" refers to the new birth, the result of faith in Christ. Also, the phrase "God's seed remains in them" refers to the same thing; the new nature, which is equivalent to the new birth. To be technical, the believer is a "new creature" or "new creation" per 2 Cor 5:17 simply because they now have a regenerated or born again nature. They still have their human or sin nature as well.

Which is why Paul said this in Gal 5:17 - For the flesh (sinful human nature) desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want.

Where do you suppose the Holy Spirit dwells in the believer? In his body and soul, the flesh? Doesn't seem likely, given Gal 5:17.

More reasonable is the regenerated born again new nature.

Now, back to 1 John 3:9. What John is teaching is that no believer can sin from his new regenerated nature. Which is where the Holy Spirit dwells. So, where does sin come from? The sinful human nature, naturally.

So, in order to not sin, the believer must be in fellowship with the Lord (1 John 1) through confession of sin, and being filled with the Holy Spirit."

Again, no exegesis, just a list of verses, none of which actually support your claims.

As to Lordship salvation, 2 verses completely refute that teaching:
Matt 7:21-23 -
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’
23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

Note that this crowd based their appeal for getting into the kingdom on their works, not on faith. Yet, note they all call Him Lord.

Then, 1 Pet 3:15 -
But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect,

Note that Peter was writing to believers, saved people. And he tells them to "revere" Christ as Lord. Some translations say "sanctify".

The point is that the command is to believers to sanctify or revere Christ as Lord.

Jesus Christ is Lord over everyone, believer and non-believer. When the believer sins, they have put themselves on the throne of their life.

I believe that "Lordship salvation" is a false doctrine. It (subtley) makes works a part of salvation.

How does two verses refute 100? Any way I have won this debate already so I won't be talking to you specifically anymore, unless you choose to actually quote scholars refuting my interpretation of 1 john. By the way I don't explain verses because I figure you can read.them for.yourself without attaching my fallible oppinion to them.

 

[godsquadgeek]

The nut determines just where the perfect height of your strings is and is a booger to mess with, seated at the top of the neck holding and spreading the strings. The only way I know to lower it is with a manual Scroll and use only the thinest double tooth 5 1/4 inch blare stretched as tight as possible and then sanded and reglued. Only serious Guitar players go there.

I wish you lived close by, we could do it. Even just taking down the bridge, I would never try grinding on it by myself.

 

[FreeGrace]

I'm glad you used that verse for Proof Texting but it completely reinforces my position, If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

Do you see that conditional word at the beginning?

Absolutely I do.

it is the biggest two letter in the English Language. it is present in my NASB litteral translation as well as in my Young's Litteral Translation, YLT.

This chapter in 1 John is about fellowship with God and Christ. So, when we sin, we lose fellowship with Christ and God. The only way to restore fellowship is through confession, where we're forgiven and cleansed.

I will confess to being as Conservative as I can manage but that is because I believe the Word of God is exactly that and I do not find humor there, He is serious and I will continue to repent. God bless.

Changing minds or direction still lacks straightforward confession. And confession is God's plan for fellowship, not my plan.

 

[FreeGrace]

My point was we were.saved by faith plus repentance , John 3:16 proves the faith part.

So then, John 3:16 is an incomplete verse, like so many others?

 

[FreeGrace]

How does two verses refute 100?

Do 100 verses refute 2? No way. Either the 2 verses I quoted are being misunderstood, or the 100 you mentioned are being misunderstood. Since I gave only 2, it would be far easier for you to exegete my 2 than me trying to exegete your 100.

Are you game?

Any way I have won this debate already

Oh, I see. Gee, that was easy, huh. Without so much as any attempt to exegete my 2 simple verses to show how they don't support my view.

By the way I don't explain verses because I figure you can read.them for.yourself without attaching my fallible oppinion to them.

Exegesis isn't one's fallible opinion. It's a science that unlocks the meaning of verses.

But since you've given away the key to your own problems, I agree with your statement: "so I won't be talking to you specifically anymore, unless you choose to actually quote scholars refuting my interpretation of 1 john".

 

[ezra]

i have no issue with Pentecostals there are a few areas i disagree with . i have a very dear friend that is a lady preacher she is about as Pentecostal as they come. i have listened to her preach . what i dont agree with is the other things associated with the spirit...i have the exact same power as the Pentecostal .i have the Holy spirit in me / resurrection power .i dont even have a big issue with tongues even though i dont understand it . i have as AOG pastor friend i have listened to preach in a general baptist church and also in a AOG church THERE was no difference in how he preached. all Bible all good word . people make to big of issue out of name tags

 

[godsquadgeek]

i have no issue with Pentecostals there are a few areas i disagree with . i have a very dear friend that is a lady preacher she is about as Pentecostal as they come. i have listened to her preach . what i dont agree with is the other things associated with the spirit...i have the exact same power as the Pentecostal .i have the Holy spirit in me / resurrection power .i dont even have a big issue with tongues even though i dont understand it . i have as AOG pastor friend i have listened to preach in a general baptist church and also in a AOG church THERE was no difference in how he preached. all Bible all good word . people make to big of issue out of name tags

well if you have never been baptized by the holy spirit, I highly recommend asking God for a fresh filling of His spirit. It is something that happens in suppliment to being saved and is renewable and a regular source of extra power. While yes you have all the power as any child of God, but to do ministry one needs extra.

 

[godsquadgeek]

My favorite example of what you have taught here involves an example Richard Clarke of Mississippi used in a sermon one day. I liked it so much I have stolen it and repeat it to explain this passage and idea.

I understand that there was a form of punishment used by the Roman Empire in some states that explains this idea, clearly. If the murderer were caught before they were forced to bury it, the corpse of the dead man was tied or strapped to the killer's back of the murder and as the flies planted eggs that hatched Magots the murdered, as it rotted was killing the murderer.

In that same fashion a Christian carries the natural man, the sinner on his back and is, admittedly, still influenced by the corpse that wants us dead. In practice and as a Life Application, when I was without the Holy Spirit, every Friday and Saturday I planned to get drunk and to shack up. From my Salvation event until now, being a Recovered Drunk I have not had a beer not a single sip of the Wild Turkey i love so much.

i still pray for forgiveness, every day, because that old man, that nature, is there but I no longer plan to sin, i just do and I hate myself every time and must turn back, asking my LORD's forgiveness.

sin comes in all types of forms, and what I love is reading romans where it says the new nature does not have to give into the power of the old nature, and that nature is rendered powerless by the Cross. Romans 6:14. We really don't have to sin. We sin for one reason. It's fun and we like it. But discipline in any form is a good thing. And disciplining oneself to holiness is never a work in vanity. But is rewarding. All we need to do is resist the devil and he will flee. I have been free from pornography for 4-5 years. Occasionally I stumble across a nude scene on you tube. But overall I have not visited any porn sites, nor do I want to. I was tempted once in the last several years only. Because once you resist it, God gives you new desires, and you no longer desire the old nature. You tube has a parental setting that keeps getting turned off, but once that is checked weekly or biweekly, it's a no brainer. You tube safe mode is pretty good, it catches 99% of the porn. But Holy Living is worth the extra hassle of disciplining oneself.

 

[ezra]

well if you have never been baptized by the holy spirit, I highly recommend asking God for a fresh filling of His spirit. It is something that happens in suppliment to being saved and is renewable and a regular source of extra power. While yes you have all the power as any child of God, but to do ministry one needs extra.

see you missed my point by one spirit was i baptized into the Body Tongues is a gift that is how i believe and interpret scriptures . as per ministry what i need most is the anointing From the Holy Spirit until the Holy Spirit shows me different this is how i stand . i try to follow a rule of thumb if i see a crowd running over the hill and then i see one person walking the other way. i want to see what that one man is up to. as i heard a pastor on the radio say follow the cloud not the crowd..

 

[dirtfarmer]

How does two verses refute 100? Any way I have won this debate already so I won't be talking to you specifically anymore, unless you choose to actually quote scholars refuting my interpretation of 1 john. By the way I don't explain verses because I figure you can read.them for.yourself without attaching my fallible oppinion to them.

hello godsquadgeek, dirtfarmer here

If John was an apostle to the "circumcision" according to Galatians 2, then why should we try to find church doctrine in his writings?

 

[dirtfarmer]

see you missed my point by one spirit was i baptized into the Body Tongues is a gift that is how i believe and interpret scriptures . as per ministry what i need most is the anointing From the Holy Spirit until the Holy Spirit shows me different this is how i stand . i try to follow a rule of thumb if i see a crowd running over the hill and then i see one person walking the other way. i want to see what that one man is up to. as i heard a pastor on the radio say follow the cloud not the crowd..

hello ezra, dirtfarmer here

There is no like button on this thread, but I do like the last phrase in your post:" Follow the cloud not the crowd."

 

[godsquadgeek]

Where in the world does this teaching come from??

There is NO sin that is "vital to our salvation". Hebrews completely refutes that notion by teaching that Christ died for sins ONCE FOR ALL.

Hebrews six talks about a sin that is vital to salvation (blasphemy of the holy spirit). All over the new testament Jesus and his disciples state that if you don't do righteousness, you are not righteous. A tree that bears no fruit will be chopped down and thrown in the fire. Matt 7:19, Matt 3:10 And at least three verses in 1 john 2, that you refuse to refute. So I guess we are done here.

 

[godsquadgeek]

hello godsquadgeek, dirtfarmer here

If John was an apostle to the "circumcision" according to Galatians 2, then why should we try to find church doctrine in his writings?

because his writings are inspired by God, thats why. Although some hyper dispensationalists will attempt to chop up scripture in a million pieces. However I believe:
2 Timothy 3:16-17New King James Version (NKJV)
16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

and taking scissors out and cutting out all of Johns work, especially when his gospel was written to gentiles, is in error.

see some hyper dispensationalists will chop out all of the beatitudes and declare then not for doctrine in the church age, and only applicable to the kingdom age. Of which I think that too is extreme. I believe proper hermeneutics is to accept every word that Jesus said, including old testament and the ten commandments, and apply them to every day life. Some scriptures cancel out the others, such as the age of grace, but still just because the law was done away with, it does not mean that we are not to follow the law,

Romans 3:31New King James Version (NKJV)
31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.

why would Jesus say that if faith meant that we need not repent and follow the laws that God has ordained that we follow? I believe all scripture is God breathed and good for doctrine. But as far as church official ordinances, I believe JEsus must have said it in the gospels, acts must have lived out what Jesus said, and the epistles must have confirmed its use in the later church. Baptism and communion are two such ordinances. But as far as doctrine, official. The more books the better. Tongues, I am not sure if Jesus mentioned them. But the church sure did, because the holy spirit was not come when Jesus was here.

 

[godsquadgeek]

see you missed my point by one spirit was i baptized into the Body Tongues is a gift that is how i believe and interpret scriptures . as per ministry what i need most is the anointing From the Holy Spirit until the Holy Spirit shows me different this is how i stand . i try to follow a rule of thumb if i see a crowd running over the hill and then i see one person walking the other way. i want to see what that one man is up to. as i heard a pastor on the radio say follow the cloud not the crowd..

probably good to not follow the crowd, but again I am not sure if the annointing is the same as having the spirit fall upon you. I think they are slightly different. I would assume a baptism of the holy spirit sometimes entertains spiritual giftings such as an annointing too.