Baptism of the Holy Spirit, is not at salvation

[FreeGrace]

1 john 3:9 no one continues to sin that is born of God

It's unfortunate to cite a verse but fails to provide any exegesis of said verse.

Some people think this verse teaches sinless perfection; that true believers will not continue to sin. Is that your view?

However, let's look at the verse:
" No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God."

OK, the phrase "born of God" refers to the new birth, the result of faith in Christ. Also, the phrase "God's seed remains in them" refers to the same thing; the new nature, which is equivalent to the new birth. To be technical, the believer is a "new creature" or "new creation" per 2 Cor 5:17 simply because they now have a regenerated or born again nature. They still have their human or sin nature as well.

Which is why Paul said this in Gal 5:17 - For the flesh (sinful human nature) desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want.

Where do you suppose the Holy Spirit dwells in the believer? In his body and soul, the flesh? Doesn't seem likely, given Gal 5:17.

More reasonable is the regenerated born again new nature.

Now, back to 1 John 3:9. What John is teaching is that no believer can sin from his new regenerated nature. Which is where the Holy Spirit dwells. So, where does sin come from? The sinful human nature, naturally.

So, in order to not sin, the believer must be in fellowship with the Lord (1 John 1) through confession of sin, and being filled with the Holy Spirit.

 

[FreeGrace]

But Paul says he speaks the gift "more than you all" 1 Cor 14:13. So he obviously sought the gift more than any other, and God heard him.

I'm not sure how one can come to such a conclusion, given that Paul wrote this in 1 Cor 14:
1 Follow the way of love and eagerly desire gifts of the Spirit, especially prophecy.
12 So it is with you. Since you are eager for gifts of the Spirit, try to excel in those that build up the church.
18 I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you.
19 But in the church I would rather speak five intelligible words to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue.

It doesn't sound like Paul sought the gift of tongues "more than any other". In fact, consider these verses from 1 Cor 14:
2 For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to people but to God. Indeed, no one understands them; they utter mysteries by the Spirit.
3 But the one who prophesies speaks to people for their strengthening, encouraging and comfort.
4 Anyone who speaks in a tongue edifies themselves, but the one who prophesies edifies the church.
5 I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues, unless someone interprets, so that the church may be edified.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Yeah I had heard stories of miracles before being baptized with Holy Spirit. But afterwards I have seen dozens more than before. Not to mention having the word of wisdom, once, discernment another time and gifts of tongues continually.

I still am blessed with the gift of giving and the gift being teacher f the Gospel Message to the Lost. Until my Agent Orange triggered my MS I had what some considered a beautiful baritone to sing Ballads, the Blues and from 1990 until a couple of years ago, I sang the Gospel in Church and in a Prison ministry.

I have had the full anointing from before I registered with the First Church for membership.

 

[godsquadgeek]

I still am blessed with the gift of giving and the gift being teacher f the Gospel Message to the Lost. Until my Agent Orange triggered my MS I had what some considered a beautiful baritone to sing Ballads, the Blues and from 1990 until a couple of years ago, I sang the Gospel in Church and in a Prison ministry.

I have had the full anointing from before I registered with the First Church for membership.

God Bless your service to our country. I come from a military family but I am in the Army of the Lord. After Bible college I led evangelism for 4 years, and taught evangelism 101, 102. I put together the whole curriculum, and married the secretary that helped me do all the binder material. Wife was working at church at the time. I also led worship in russia missions and romania mission trips, all after a mental breakdown due to the 2009 financial crisis and loss of job, I stopped doing evangelism and worship. I am raising my family now and working. So far my daughter is taking after he father and singing in youth group, in two bands. I hope my sons will take up guitar, so that that gift is not wasted away.

 

[godsquadgeek]

It's unfortunate to cite a verse but fails to provide any exegesis of said verse.

Some people think this verse teaches sinless perfection; that true believers will not continue to sin. Is that your view?

However, let's look at the verse:
" No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God."

OK, the phrase "born of God" refers to the new birth, the result of faith in Christ. Also, the phrase "God's seed remains in them" refers to the same thing; the new nature, which is equivalent to the new birth. To be technical, the believer is a "new creature" or "new creation" per 2 Cor 5:17 simply because they now have a regenerated or born again nature. They still have their human or sin nature as well.

Which is why Paul said this in Gal 5:17 - For the flesh (sinful human nature) desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want.

Where do you suppose the Holy Spirit dwells in the believer? In his body and soul, the flesh? Doesn't seem likely, given Gal 5:17.

More reasonable is the regenerated born again new nature.

Now, back to 1 John 3:9. What John is teaching is that no believer can sin from his new regenerated nature. Which is where the Holy Spirit dwells. So, where does sin come from? The sinful human nature, naturally.

So, in order to not sin, the believer must be in fellowship with the Lord (1 John 1) through confession of sin, and being filled with the Holy Spirit.

I will provide a full list of verses for you, this is easy debate.

here is a sample:

“And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth it not in him. But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. “

1 John 2:3-5


“If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.”-1 John 2:29



“Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.” -1 John 2:6-7


18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. -1 John 5:18


“Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father in not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.”-1 John 2:15-17


full list of over 100 Lordship salvation verses found here:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B-YVaiqGtH1HS0JXN2NWWlV1YWc

 

[godsquadgeek]

It's unfortunate to cite a verse but fails to provide any exegesis of said verse.

Some people think this verse teaches sinless perfection; that true believers will not continue to sin. Is that your view?

However, let's look at the verse:
" No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God."

OK, the phrase "born of God" refers to the new birth, the result of faith in Christ. Also, the phrase "God's seed remains in them" refers to the same thing; the new nature, which is equivalent to the new birth. To be technical, the believer is a "new creature" or "new creation" per 2 Cor 5:17 simply because they now have a regenerated or born again nature. They still have their human or sin nature as well.

Which is why Paul said this in Gal 5:17 - For the flesh (sinful human nature) desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want.

Where do you suppose the Holy Spirit dwells in the believer? In his body and soul, the flesh? Doesn't seem likely, given Gal 5:17.

More reasonable is the regenerated born again new nature.

Now, back to 1 John 3:9. What John is teaching is that no believer can sin from his new regenerated nature. Which is where the Holy Spirit dwells. So, where does sin come from? The sinful human nature, naturally.

So, in order to not sin, the believer must be in fellowship with the Lord (1 John 1) through confession of sin, and being filled with the Holy Spirit.

I believe not in sinless perfection, but transgression perfection. Meaning that the only sin that is vital to our salvation is transgressions that are continual in a way that we boast about it and are proud to do it. Those are the tense of the greek when it talks in the Bible about "continual sin". Sin as in having flaws and being human is never going to change, we are imperfect all the days of our lives but we can forsake proud transgressions.

 

[Creative]

have never been a member nor attended a... what is referred to as a "charismatic" church (is that the correct term ?).

 

[godsquadgeek]

have never been a member nor attended a... what is referred to as a "charismatic" church (is that the correct term ?).

yeah, or pentecostal. Either one. Some of them are crazy but I attend a mildly pentecostal church called calvary chapel. But I have been to some holy roller churches where people are running down the isles and trying to push you over. I don't recommend those.

 

[Creative]

yeah, or pentecostal. Either one. Some of them are crazy but I attend a mildly pentecostal church called calvary chapel. But I have been to some holy roller churches where people are running down the isles and trying to push you over. I don't recommend those.

One thing that bothers me about some of the churches is that they hand out pamphlets on how to speak in tongues or people are coached, sometimes recommending people start by willfully babbling like a baby - I have heard this from friends, family and seen evidence of it online. I must have skipped that part of the Bible.

I would think the gifts would come as something against the laws of nature (also known as a miracle). It would not be willful. I had a Catholic priest once who practiced centering prayer and telling and teaching others to do it and making the claim that this would have an outcome from God no matter what. Of course, there was a problem along the same lines with that also.

 

[reba]

I would think the gifts would come as something against the laws of nature (also known as a miracle). It would not be willful.

This old Pentecostal gal agrees %100
That stuff turns my spirit

 

[godsquadgeek]

One thing that bothers me about some of the churches is that they hand out pamphlets on how to speak in tongues or people are coached, sometimes recommending people start by willfully babbling like a baby - I have heard this from friends, family and seen evidence of it online. I must have skipped that part of the Bible.

I would think the gifts would come as something against the laws of nature (also known as a miracle). It would not be willful. I had a Catholic priest once who practiced centering prayer and telling and teaching others to do it and making the claim that this would have an outcome from God no matter what. Of course, there was a problem along the same lines with that also.

The bible says "the spirit of the prophet is subject to the prophet" I don't have the adress as I am on my phone, but yeah. I personally was never coached. I was in the woods praying and got the gift of tongues. But my wife does not have it, nor even desires it. But coaches seem to be fraudulent to me, although I did show someone how to speak in tongues once, basically by praying for him and laying hands on him. But I was alone when I got the gift, so it's different to everyone

 

[th1b.taylor]

God Bless your service to our country. I come from a military family but I am in the Army of the Lord. After Bible college I led evangelism for 4 years, and taught evangelism 101, 102. I put together the whole curriculum, and married the secretary that helped me do all the binder material. Wife was working at church at the time. I also led worship in russia missions and romania mission trips, all after a mental breakdown due to the 2009 financial crisis and loss of job, I stopped doing evangelism and worship. I am raising my family now and working. So far my daughter is taking after he father and singing in youth group, in two bands. I hope my sons will take up guitar, so that that gift is not wasted away.

See, you should have known me years ago I gave 3 Fender electrics. One fender Electiirc, Jazz Master Bass and my Vintage Ovation away to members in Church Groups and placed on, my Tele, I gave to our Prison Church in Huntsville, Texas. I would have been able to out you for the cost of shipping. I, just a few months ago. gave my practice Keyboard to a new Church, leaving me with two sets of Blues Harps and they are lonely and my kids have no interest. Mu only requirement was the instruments be dedicated to playing Christian Music.When I played I loved the custom T6 Peavy built for Jackie. It really was a sit down instrument but that solid Red Oak body and neck, laminated on the top with yhat black wood that comes from Africa. It was worth the weight because being set up that way and with the strings almost on the Frets, where they belong, it never made the fingers on he left hand sore, no matter how long a benefit I played and with all that hard wood, it would hold the note until you lifted you finger.

It almost broke my of my Telecaster.

 

[godsquadgeek]

See, you should have known me years ago I gave 3 Fender electrics. One fender Electiirc, Jazz Master Bass and my Vintage Ovation away to members in Church Groups and placed on, my Tele, I gave to our Prison Church in Huntsville, Texas. I would have been able to out you for the cost of shipping. I, just a few months ago. gave my practice Keyboard to a new Church, leaving me with two sets of Blues Harps and they are lonely and my kids have no interest. Mu only requirement was the instruments be dedicated to playing Christian Music.When I played I loved the custom T6 Peavy built for Jackie. It really was a sit down instrument but that solid Red Oak body and neck, laminated on the top with yhat black wood that comes from Africa. It was worth the weight because being set up that way and with the strings almost on the Frets, where they belong, it never made the fingers on he left hand sore, no matter how long a benefit I played and with all that hard wood, it would hold the note until you lifted you finger.

It almost broke my of my Telecaster.

I have an ibenez and a Martin acoustic - electric with rose wood. But yours were.probably better.

 

[th1b.taylor]

I have an ibenez and a Martin acoustic - electric with rose wood. But yours were.probably better.

I hate Martins, every one I've ever laid my hands on needed the Bridge removed and lowered and the nut shaved to ease the pressure of fingering but one cannot go to a Blue Grass event without seeing they all love that Martin sound. I set my own guitars up and save a couple of hundred on each one. I did that fr a few inside the Church and they coud not believe how fast the made Cord or note changes. it makes a difference.

 

[godsquadgeek]

I hate Martins, every one I've ever laid my hands on needed the Bridge removed and lowered and the nut shaved to ease the pressure of fingering but one cannot go to a Blue Grass event without seeing they all love that Martin sound. I set my own guitars up and save a couple of hundred on each one. I did that fr a few inside the Church and they coud not believe how fast the made Cord or note changes. it makes a difference.

I like the full sound, I dont like taylors. But yeah it would be nice to take down the bridge, I know what you mean. But not sure what you mean about the nut.

 

[WIP]

Mark 1:15 as well as over 100 other verses mention faith plus repentance. One has to do serious misinterpretation of the Bible to justify easy believism.

The point of this forum is to show by virtue of Scripture the evidence for your points of discussion. Just posting any verse doesn't cut it. You need to show the verse that actually backs up your claim. Faith and belief are two different things and I am suggesting that John 3:16 does not support the point you made.

 

[eddif]

I'm not sure how one can come to such a conclusion, given that Paul wrote this in 1 Cor 14:

I have followed your thoughts pretty well (I hope).

John 16:7 KJV
Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

1. Jesus was the Word, but he became flesh.
2. His flesh died, and went into the grave.
3. He was resurrected from death
4. He assended into heaven (to sit on the right hand of God
5. He became a quickening spirit
6. The Holy Spirit was sent to us to help us do the will of the Father.
7. Others

To wonder how people draw conclusions? If I am required to explain the previous paragraph would take at least a thousand words. Then it would not make sense to some. How do I explain:
Revelations
Visions
Dreams
Symbols
Types
Shadows
Commandments contained in ordinances

While keeping a post short?

The Word became all these things.
1. John 1:14
2,3,7. I Thessalonians 4:14,
4,7. Romans 8:34
5. I Corinthians 15:45
6,7 Revelation 3:20


To understand why people make conclusions? Their knowledge of things is limited. Some listen to just their favorite teachers. My view is cut back by the welding glasses I wear (through a glass darkly).

FreeGrace it takes a lot to know God. Killing off our self is tough.

Redneck
eddif

 

[th1b.taylor]

I like the full sound, I dont like taylors. But yeah it would be nice to take down the bridge, I know what you mean. But not sure what you mean about the nut.

The nut determines just where the perfect height of your strings is and is a booger to mess with, seated at the top of the neck holding and spreading the strings. The only way I know to lower it is with a manual Scroll and use only the thinest double tooth 5 1/4 inch blare stretched as tight as possible and then sanded and reglued. Only serious Guitar players go there.

 

[LovethroughDove]

The big issue is the "will be".

Lots of folks change (will be) into (are).

Some say (truly) must must be inserted.

Some say if your name is still written in the book of life, at the judgement throne.

Some say if you keep the law of Moses.

Some say other things.

What are you saying? And. You can use your own words.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

When you truly believe in your heart (don't lie to yourself) that Jesus is Lord and God raised him from the dead, you are saved. He says "will be" because that is an action before the born again experience of the Holy Spirit becoming One with you at the time you believe (He is Lord and resurrection)

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"It's unfortunate to cite a verse but fails to provide any exegesis of said verse.

Some people think this verse teaches sinless perfection; that true believers will not continue to sin. Is that your view?

However, let's look at the verse:
" No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God."

OK, the phrase "born of God" refers to the new birth, the result of faith in Christ. Also, the phrase "God's seed remains in them" refers to the same thing; the new nature, which is equivalent to the new birth. To be technical, the believer is a "new creature" or "new creation" per 2 Cor 5:17 simply because they now have a regenerated or born again nature. They still have their human or sin nature as well.

Which is why Paul said this in Gal 5:17 - For the flesh (sinful human nature) desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want.

Where do you suppose the Holy Spirit dwells in the believer? In his body and soul, the flesh? Doesn't seem likely, given Gal 5:17.

More reasonable is the regenerated born again new nature.

Now, back to 1 John 3:9. What John is teaching is that no believer can sin from his new regenerated nature. Which is where the Holy Spirit dwells. So, where does sin come from? The sinful human nature, naturally.

So, in order to not sin, the believer must be in fellowship with the Lord (1 John 1) through confession of sin, and being filled with the Holy Spirit."

I will provide a full list of verses for you, this is easy debate.

here is a sample:
“And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth it not in him. But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. “

1 John 2:3-5
“If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.”-1 John 2:29

“Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.” -1 John 2:6-7

18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. -1 John 5:18

“Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father in not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.”-1 John 2:15-17

full list of over 100 Lordship salvation verses found here:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B-YVaiqGtH1HS0JXN2NWWlV1YWc

Again, no exegesis, just a list of verses, none of which actually support your claims.

As to Lordship salvation, 2 verses completely refute that teaching:
Matt 7:21-23 -
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’
23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

Note that this crowd based their appeal for getting into the kingdom on their works, not on faith. Yet, note they all call Him Lord.

Then, 1 Pet 3:15 -
But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect,

Note that Peter was writing to believers, saved people. And he tells them to "revere" Christ as Lord. Some translations say "sanctify".

The point is that the command is to believers to sanctify or revere Christ as Lord.

Jesus Christ is Lord over everyone, believer and non-believer. When the believer sins, they have put themselves on the throne of their life.

I believe that "Lordship salvation" is a false doctrine. It (subtley) makes works a part of salvation.