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Belief and Faith

chessman said:
Hi, been missing your posts.

I do know Matthew 18. Which is how I know it doesn’t say (or even imply) we should have child-like faith.
Click to expand...
I also missed you. Still waiting to agree on something!
So what does Mathew 18:3 mean to you?
 
wondering said:
So what does Mathew 18:3 mean to you?
Click to expand...

Just what it says. Nothing more, nothing less. Being a “humble like a child” disciple leads to greatness in His kingdom. Pretty straightforward. Which is a different subject than having child-like faith.

Matthew 18:3 is:

1. Jesus’ answer to the disciples’ question; Who then is greater in the kingdom of the heavens? Which isn’t even about “faith” or “belief” in the first place.

2. As has already been rightly pointed out in this thread, saving “faith” is actually/literally a gift from God. A noun. We receive it! To call that thing we received from God ‘child-like’ seems like a disservice to God.

At that hour the disciples came to Jesus, saying, “Who then is greater in the kingdom of the heavens?” And having summoned a child, He stood him in the middle of them, and said, “Truly I say to you, unless you are turned- around and become like children, you will never enter into the kingdom of the heavens. Therefore whoever will humble himself like this child, this one is the greater one in the kingdom of the heavens.​
Matthew 18:1-4 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 18:1-4&version=DLNT
 
We believe by that which is proven to us and by faith we accept that which is proven. We first had to believe that Christ is the Son of God and by faith, which is not our own, but that of Christ Jesus who is the author and finisher of faith we grow in that faith which is revealed to us as we learn we can trust in Him and bring forth the works He desires of us as faith without works is dead faith. If dead faith then there is no belief.
 
WIP said:
I'm wondering if you're looking at it from the view of a child that has grown older and then able to reflect back on his/her life and relationship with the parents. What about a young child that has not yet matured enough to make that kind of rationalization?
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Meh, I never had any sort of faith or trust in my Dad. Mom was useless to protect me. No sort of sexual abuse, and Dad only hit me twice, both times I was in fact out of line. I wasn't about to trust him for anything long before either of those incidents though.

No sort of generalizations are prudent on this topic, and emotional abuse is impossible to quantify and should not be overlooked.
 
wondering said:
A child is helpless and NEEDS his parent.
Anyway, where would he go?
But that child does not trust nor have belief in his parent...if anything I believe he would fear him and have no respect at all for him.
Belief in a person also carries with it the idea of respect.
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Bingo! And with the male child there is the dynamic of what happens when he finally realizes Dad is no match for him, even though that's been true for four years already and Dad knew it perfectly well

Not a healthy situation!
 
Edward said:
We're dancing all around it, huh? And getting pretty close too. I think what it comes down to is, belief is one thing. I believe Jesus dies on the cross as a man and rose from the dead three days later. Even the demons believe that though and they will not go to heaven.

The right scripture was posted...but was a little short, it should have had the next two verses also which explain a lot.

James 2:19
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?.../

So having faith is a little more than trust. It is acting on that trust (which the demons will not do). Abraham did. He trusted God. God had promised him his son, Issac, but now wanted him sacrificed...so Abraham must have thought that God would raise Issac back up again or something because God had promised him. So he trusted in God and acted upon his faith and set out to obey the Lord.

Yeah, faith has a lot to do with obedience. That's why faith without works is dead. What good is faith if one does not act upon it?
Click to expand...

You've been preaching good, Brother!

Isaac's trust in his Dad always spoke to me, immensely.
 
WIP said:
I'd like to think I did my best but sometimes I'm not so sure. Just trying to better understand what Jesus meant when He said that we should have child-like faith and how that differs from our adult-like faith.
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I think our mature Faith is supposed to be more like a child-like Faith. Simple. Filled with awe. Easily humble. Grateful.
 
wondering said:
No. You're absolutely right.
Repentance is necessary for salvation. If we're not sorry we've sinned, how could we be friends with God?

I'd also say that obedience is necessary for salvation...obedience to God's commandments. If we trust someone, we tend to obey them.
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I understand it kinda like this.
If sin is missing the mark, then repentance is hitting the mark after missing it.
We dont always hit the mark, but with practice and endurance, we get closer.

Look at it like this. If your husband was beating you on a weekly basis, would him simply feeling sorry about it be a form of repentance. No, because feeling sorry is not an excuse to repeat bad behavior. Instead, feeling bad about ones behavior should be a motivator to not repeat the bad behavior. In religious terms, we call this obedience because we are now shooting toward the mark. But before we shoot, we have to aim toward the mark.

So we see that obedience is part of repentance.

The bigger question is this. What is your treasure, and do you love the Lord. If your treasure is the Lord, then your heart will be where your treasure is.

Do we trust Jesus enough to live the way He designed us to live? It takes faith to do what Jesus did because we first have to believe it's the best possible way to live.
 
chessman said:
Just what it says. Nothing more, nothing less. Being a “humble like a child” disciple leads to greatness in His kingdom. Pretty straightforward. Which is a different subject than having child-like faith.

Matthew 18:3 is:

1. Jesus’ answer to the disciples’ question; Who then is greater in the kingdom of the heavens? Which isn’t even about “faith” or “belief” in the first place.

2. As has already been rightly pointed out in this thread, saving “faith” is actually/literally a gift from God. A noun. We receive it! To call that thing we received from God ‘child-like’ seems like a disservice to God.

At that hour the disciples came to Jesus, saying, “Who then is greater in the kingdom of the heavens?” And having summoned a child, He stood him in the middle of them, and said, “Truly I say to you, unless you are turned- around and become like children, you will never enter into the kingdom of the heavens. Therefore whoever will humble himself like this child, this one is the greater one in the kingdom of the heavens.​
Matthew 18:1-4 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 18:1-4&version=DLNT
Click to expand...

Jesus took the child and hugged him and said that unless we are turned-around an become like children....

How are children?
Are they different from adults? How?

Children depend totally on their parents.
We are to depend totally on God.
Children trust their parents.
We are to trust God.
Children are innocent.
We are to be innocent toward all things. (to the pure all things are pure)
Children believe IN their parents.
We are to believe IN Jesus.

If all the above is true, then children have FAITH in their parents...a pure and simple faith that doesn't ask so many questions (as we often do).

Faith is dependence
Faith is trust
Faith is belief
Faith is innocence

All of the above are characteristics of a child.
 
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wondering said:
Children depend totally on their parents.
We are to depend totally on God.
Children trust their parents.
We are to trust God.
Children are innocent.
We are to be innocent toward all things. (to the pure all things are pure)
Children believe IN their parents.
We are to believe IN Jesus.
Click to expand...

All of this is your ideas of what He meant, not what Jesus said. He explained exactly what He meant in the ...

“whoever will humble himself like this child, this one is the greater one in the kingdom of the heavens.”​

Jesus’s same point, made to the disciples that day, was repeated multiple times:

But whenever you are invited, having gone, fall back [to eat] in the last place, so that when the one having invited you comes, he will say to you, ‘Friend, move up higher’. Then there will be glory for you in the presence of all the ones reclining back with you [to eat]. Because everyone exalting himself will be humbled. And the one humbling himself will be exalted”.​
Luke 14:10-11 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Luke 14:10-11&version=DLNT

And do not call one on earth your father. For One is your Father— the heavenly One. Nor be called master-teachers, because your master-teacher is One— the Christ. But the greater of you shall be your servant. And whoever will exalt himself will be humbled, and whoever will humble himself will be exalted.​
Matthew 23:9-12 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 23:9-12&version=DLNT

But the tax collector, standing at-a-distance, was not willing even to lift-up his eyes to heaven, but was striking his chest, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, the sinner!’ I say to you, this one went-down to his house having been declared-righteous, rather-than that one. Because everyone exalting himself will be humbled, but the one humbling himself will be exalted”.​
Luke 18:13-14 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Luke 18:13-14&version=DLNT

wondering said:
Children are innocent.
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Who’s?

Notice (or not) to be like what Jesus told the disciples to be like is to admit you are a sinner, not claim innocence.
 
chessman said:
All of this is your ideas of what He meant, not what Jesus said. He explained exactly what He meant in the ...

“whoever will humble himself like this child, this one is the greater one in the kingdom of the heavens.”​

Jesus’s same point, made to the disciples that day, was repeated multiple times:

But whenever you are invited, having gone, fall back [to eat] in the last place, so that when the one having invited you comes, he will say to you, ‘Friend, move up higher’. Then there will be glory for you in the presence of all the ones reclining back with you [to eat]. Because everyone exalting himself will be humbled. And the one humbling himself will be exalted”.​
Luke 14:10-11 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Luke 14:10-11&version=DLNT

And do not call one on earth your father. For One is your Father— the heavenly One. Nor be called master-teachers, because your master-teacher is One— the Christ. But the greater of you shall be your servant. And whoever will exalt himself will be humbled, and whoever will humble himself will be exalted.​
Matthew 23:9-12 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 23:9-12&version=DLNT

But the tax collector, standing at-a-distance, was not willing even to lift-up his eyes to heaven, but was striking his chest, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, the sinner!’ I say to you, this one went-down to his house having been declared-righteous, rather-than that one. Because everyone exalting himself will be humbled, but the one humbling himself will be exalted”.​
Luke 18:13-14 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Luke 18:13-14&version=DLNT


Who’s?

Notice (or not) to be like what Jesus told the disciples to be like is to admit you are a sinner, not claim innocence.
Click to expand...
Believe what you will, this is not worth any amount of debating.
I'll only ask you what child you know that is humble?
I can't think of any that I know just off-hand and I know for sure that human nature has not changed in the past 2,000 years, or ever.

Your last paragraph is not worth answering,,,it's a little silly.
 
wondering said:
Are Belief and Faith the same?
If I believe in someone, I also have faith in them.
Faith, as in trust.
If I have faith in someone, I also believe in them.
Believe in, as trust in.
Right?
Click to expand...
The question is really: "Are Belief and Faith the same in New Testament Greek?"

We have a tendency confuse/conflate the meaning of a Greek word translated into Modern English with the meaning of the Modern English word.

In the Koine (NT) Greek the words believe and faith are the same word.
The verbal form [πιστεύω (pisteuō )] is translated "believe".
The noun form [πίστις (pistis)] is translated "faith."

Act 8:37a Then Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart,..."
"Εἰ πιστεύεις ἐξ ὅλης τὴς καρδίας.."
("Ei pisteueis edz holes tes kardias...")

Luk 17:6a So the Lord said, “If you have faith as a mustard seed,..."
"Εἰ εἴχετε πίστιν ὡς κόκκον σινάπεως..."
("Ei eixete pistin hos kokkon sinapeos..")

Another term found in the NT is "the faith." [τῆς πίστεως (tes pisteos) It refers to the teachings of Jesus and the apostles. (Like: Jesus is the Christ. Jesus died, was buried and rose again on the third day.)

Hope that was useful
 
chessman said:
This one:

Therefore whoever will humble himself like this child, this one is the greater one in the kingdom of the heavens.​
Matthew 18:4 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 18:4&version=DLNT
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Didn't forget you Chessman --- been too busy.

OK. Let's discuss for a moment.

I say we need to have the faith of a child.
You say all Jesus was saying is that we need to be humble like a child.

Mathew 18:1-6
1At that time the disciples came to Jesus and said, “Who then is greatest in the kingdom of heaven?”
2And He called a child to Himself and set him before them,
3and said, “Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.
4“Whoever then humbles himself as this child, he is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
5“And whoever receives one such child in My name receives Me; 6but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.

So who is the greatest in the Kingdom of heaven?
Not the proud and arrogant but the humble and kind.
Those in the Kingdom do not trust on themselves but on their Father. They believe Him for all things. They know that without Him they are nothing.

Verse 3: Jesus takes the child and says that if we do not become like children, we will not enter the KofH. How are children? They have faith in their parents, they trust them, they believe what they're told, they look to their parents for everything. Proverbs 3:5-6 comes to mind. They do what they are told without even questioning their parents, so great is their trust in them. In this sense, children are innocent.

Verse 4: Jesus says whoever humbles himself, like this child, he is the greatest in the Kingdom. Are children humble? I haven't ever met a humble one. Maybe humble meant something different in those times? Perhaps it meant THE GROUND, the bottom. I'm not getting into the Greek of this. It simply meant the lowest part.
We are to be lowly and not think highly of ourselves. Humble was the best word the English could come up with. Not that Jesus was wrong in using this word -- WE have a difficult time translating the original words. So it means humble, in the sense that we are nothing without our Father, John 15 comes to mind.

Can we say that we are both correct?
We are to become like children.
We are to be humble like a child.

 
Jim Parker said:
The question is really: "Are Belief and Faith the same in New Testament Greek?"

We have a tendency confuse/conflate the meaning of a Greek word translated into Modern English with the meaning of the Modern English word.

In the Koine (NT) Greek the words believe and faith are the same word.
The verbal form [πιστεύω (pisteuō )] is translated "believe".
The noun form [πίστις (pistis)] is translated "faith."

Act 8:37a Then Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart,..."
"Εἰ πιστεύεις ἐξ ὅλης τὴς καρδίας.."
("Ei pisteueis edz holes tes kardias...")

Luk 17:6a So the Lord said, “If you have faith as a mustard seed,..."
"Εἰ εἴχετε πίστιν ὡς κόκκον σινάπεως..."
("Ei eixete pistin hos kokkon sinapeos..")

Another term found in the NT is "the faith." [τῆς πίστεως (tes pisteos) It refers to the teachings of Jesus and the apostles. (Like: Jesus is the Christ. Jesus died, was buried and rose again on the third day.)

Hope that was useful
Click to expand...
Yes. Thanks Jim.
JLB also brought this up in post no. 13

This is an important point.
 
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