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Believe in God, you will be saved

Dorothy Mae said:
I understand what you’re saying but I don’t see any writer of the Bible saying believing in God alone is good. One says even the demons believe in God so that’s not very impressive.
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How can you say that you don't see any writer of the Bible saying believing in God alone is good?

Jennifer Rogers in the OP references John 3:16, perhaps the most recognizable and oft-quoted scripture.

The writer (John) tells us explicity- that not only is believing in the sent son enough-- it's the key to avoiding judgment altogether.

“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. “For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. “He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

It's unlikely that you don't see..... and more likely that you don't believe what you see.
 
Mister E said:
How can you say that you don't see any writer of the Bible saying believing in God alone is good?

Jennifer Rogers in the OP references John 3:16, perhaps the most recognizable and oft-quoted scripture.

The writer (John) tells us explicity- that not only is believing in the sent son enough-- it's the key to avoiding judgment altogether.

“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. “For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. “He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

It's unlikely that you don't see..... and more likely that you don't believe what you see.
Click to expand...
Believing Jesus is the Son of God is not believing there is a God. They aren’t the same. Believing IN Jesus means you believe what he is and taught, not that you believed he lived. Everyone who saw him knew he lived.

In any case, the point was believing in God, not Jesus amd you can disbelieve me but the Bible says the demons believe in God. That’s not just my words.
 
Dorothy Mae said:
I understand what you’re saying but I don’t see any writer of the Bible saying believing in God alone is good. One says even the demons believe in God so that’s not very impressive.
Click to expand...
I said two things:

1. Believing, in the Greek (I hate to "go to the Greek") means more than just believing mentally.
Most Christians know that it means to trust and to follow and to be a disciple. If someone things JUST BELIEVING is enough, then they're just fooling themselves, and we both know this type of believer. Until proven otherwise, I tend to give the benefit of the doubt to a new poster and go by what I just wrote.

2. I said that we must believe and that believing means obeying.
The word BELIEVE, as it was written in Greek and as it meant in NT times, means that we must not only believe (in the Greek sense as above) but also OBEY. In fact, the words disbelieve and disobey are almost synonymous in that language.

I think we agree. I just think maybe you hang on to the word believe to mean a mental belief.
Sorry if I'm wrong. You could clarify.
 
wondering said:
I said two things:

1. Believing, in the Greek (I hate to "go to the Greek") means more than just believing mentally.
Most Christians know that it means to trust and to follow and to be a disciple. If someone things JUST BELIEVING is enough, then they're just fooling themselves, and we both know this type of believer. Until proven otherwise, I tend to give the benefit of the doubt to a new poster and go by what I just wrote.

2. I said that we must believe and that believing means obeying.
The word BELIEVE, as it was written in Greek and as it meant in NT times, means that we must not only believe (in the Greek sense as above) but also OBEY. In fact, the words disbelieve and disobey are almost synonymous in that language.

I think we agree. I just think maybe you hang on to the word believe to mean a mental belief.
Sorry if I'm wrong. You could clarify.
Click to expand...

I don't mean to be contradictory, but there is only one narrow meaning of the Greek word 'pisteo' that could be associated with "obeying" -in fact it would be even more properly defined as "do" rather than obey. In almost every usage it means nothing more than "believe." If you wanted to broaden the translation, you'd go in the direction of "trust" or "entrust" -not obey.

Secondly, you'd ( Dorothy Mae ) would have to ignore a plethora of scripture from the same writer (John) regarding what it means to believe in the name of the son of God and in the Father who sent him. The testimony of Jesus Christ concerning his Father (God) is what we are to believe. (accept, trust, be convinced of)
 
Mister E said:
I don't mean to be contradictory, but there is only one narrow meaning of the Greek word 'pisteo' that could be associated with "obeying" -in fact it would be even more properly defined as "do" rather than obey. In almost every usage it means nothing more than "believe." If you wanted to broaden the translation, you'd go in the direction of "trust" or "entrust" -not obey.

Secondly, you'd ( Dorothy Mae ) would have to ignore a plethora of scripture from the same writer (John) regarding what it means to believe in the name of the son of God and in the Father who sent him. The testimony of Jesus Christ concerning his Father (God) is what we are to believe. (accept, trust, be convinced of)
Click to expand...
If you trust someone you will obey that person.
We have to go beyond pisteo and I'm on a cell right now. If you respond I'll answer you in the morning.


I agree with your second paragraph to the other poster.

It's ok to disagree in a nice manner.
It's how we could learn something new!
 
Mister E said:
I don't mean to be contradictory, but there is only one narrow meaning of the Greek word 'pisteo' that could be associated with "obeying" -in fact it would be even more properly defined as "do" rather than obey. In almost every usage it means nothing more than "believe." If you wanted to broaden the translation, you'd go in the direction of "trust" or "entrust" -not obey.

Secondly, you'd ( Dorothy Mae ) would have to ignore a plethora of scripture from the same writer (John) regarding what it means to believe in the name of the son of God and in the Father who sent him. The testimony of Jesus Christ concerning his Father (God) is what we are to believe. (accept, trust, be convinced of)
Click to expand...
I know the definition of believing to them. It isn’t that to us. That’s my point. It doesn’t even mean “obey”to many Christians. It just means gives give mental or verbal warning ascent, or agree with the idea. It doesn’t mean commit.

Jesus said there will be many, not few, who will come to him having not only believed in Jesus but actually having done good for many people in His name to whom He will say, “go away.” They believed.

So I would be careful about telling people “just believe in God.” If she wanted to teach what the Bible teaches, she needed say to John 3:16. What she said is not biblical except in the reference that says the demons believe in God too. Not nice company.
 
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Dorothy Mae said:
I know the definition of believing to them. It isn’t that to us. That’s my point. It doesn’t even mean “obey”to many Christians. It just means gives give mental or verbal warning ascent, or agree with the idea. It doesn’t mean commit.
Click to expand...
John 3:16 NASB
“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

I believe the word believe in John 3:16 is a transitive verb.
Websters defines it as such.
transitive verb
1
a: to consider to be true or honest
-believe the reports
-you wouldn't believe how long it took
b: to accept the word or evidence of
-I believe you
-couldn't believe my ears
2: to hold as an opinion : SUPPOSE
-I believe it will rain soon

It's pretty straight forward...

But Jesus doesn't stop with just believing. Instead, he goes on to say,
John 3:21 NASB
"But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.”

wrought:
1.: worked into shape by artistry or effort
-carefully wrought essays
2: elaborately embellished : ORNAMENTED
3: processed for use : MANUFACTURED
-wrought silk
4: beaten into shape by tools : HAMMERED —used of metals
5: deeply stirred : EXCITED —often used with up
-gets easily wrought up over nothing

After all, we are God's workmanship.

First, you have to believe that Jesus was sent by God, and the things Jesus says and does is truth.
Second, you have to live out those truths.

Dorothy Mae said:
Jesus said there will be many, not few, who will come to him having not only believed in Jesus but actually having done good for many people in His name to whom He will say, “go away.” They believed.
Click to expand...
Yes, they believed, but they did not practice what they believed. Scripture speaks to this in terms of hardening one's heart and we call this willful disobedience. When we harden our hearts to sin and our sin becomes willful disobedience, then we bring death upon ourselves. We can call this sin that leads to death.
Dorothy Mae said:
So I would be careful about telling people “just believe in God.” If she wanted to teach what the Bible teaches, she needed say to John 3:16. What she said is not biblical except in the reference that says the demons believe in God too.
Click to expand...

I've known wondering for what, just under a decade now. (Has it been that long lol). I understand that you're new to the conversation with her, but I guarantee you that she does not believe in easy believism. She promotes walk the talk. In other words, don't only 'believe' Jesus, but do as Jesus did.
 
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Actually I don't understand the hostility. Believe in God and you will be saved was just the title and more than that was stated. The person of Jesus was spoken of.

John wrote in regard to a Jesus in Israel.
Though the world was made through Him the world didn't recognize Him. He came to that which was His own and His own did not receive Him.

YET
to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

Paul wrote
No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a person’s praise is not from other people, but from God.
 
Dorothy Mae said:
I know the definition of believing to them. It isn’t that to us. That’s my point. It doesn’t even mean “obey”to many Christians. It just means gives give mental or verbal warning ascent, or agree with the idea. It doesn’t mean commit.

Jesus said there will be many, not few, who will come to him having not only believed in Jesus but actually having done good for many people in His name to whom He will say, “go away.” They believed.

So I would be careful about telling people “just believe in God.” If she wanted to teach what the Bible teaches, she needed say to John 3:16. What she said is not biblical except in the reference that says the demons believe in God too. Not nice company.
Click to expand...

Nitpick? That’s what I see. If you look for the worst in people and in life, you’ll be sure to find it.

I don’t understand the hostility either.
 
stovebolts said:
I guarantee you that she does not believe in easy believism.
Click to expand...

Easy believism? Is that a thing?

Can you explain the concept to these three?

One of the criminals who were hanged there was hurling abuse at Him, saying, “Are You not the Christ? Save Yourself and us!” But the other answered, and rebuking him said, “Do you not even fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? “And we indeed are suffering justly, for we are receiving what we deserve for our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong.” And he was saying, “Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!” And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.” (Luke 23)
 
stovebolts said:
John 3:16 NASB
“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

I believe the word believe in John 3:16 is a transitive verb.
Websters defines it as such.
transitive verb
1
a: to consider to be true or honest
-believe the reports
-you wouldn't believe how long it took
b: to accept the word or evidence of
-I believe you
-couldn't believe my ears
2: to hold as an opinion : SUPPOSE
-I believe it will rain soon

It's pretty straight forward...

But Jesus doesn't stop with just believing. Instead, he goes on to say,
John 3:21 NASB
"But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.”

wrought:
1.: worked into shape by artistry or effort
-carefully wrought essays
2: elaborately embellished : ORNAMENTED
3: processed for use : MANUFACTURED
-wrought silk
4: beaten into shape by tools : HAMMERED —used of metals
5: deeply stirred : EXCITED —often used with up
-gets easily wrought up over nothing

After all, we are God's workmanship.

First, you have to believe that Jesus was sent by God, and the things Jesus says and does is truth.
Second, you have to live out those truths.


Yes, they believed, but they did not practice what they believed. Scripture speaks to this in terms of hardening one's heart and we call this willful disobedience. When we harden our hearts to sin and our sin becomes willful disobedience, then we bring death upon ourselves. We can call this sin that leads to death.


I've known wondering for what, just under a decade now. (Has it been that long lol). I understand that you're new to the conversation with her, but I guarantee you that she does not believe in easy believism. She promotes walk the talk. In other words, don't only 'believe' Jesus, but do as Jesus did.
Click to expand...
Great explanation!
 
Mister E said:
Easy believism? Is that a thing?

Can you explain the concept to these three?

One of the criminals who were hanged there was hurling abuse at Him, saying, “Are You not the Christ? Save Yourself and us!” But the other answered, and rebuking him said, “Do you not even fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? “And we indeed are suffering justly, for we are receiving what we deserve for our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong.” And he was saying, “Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!” And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.” (Luke 23)
Click to expand...
Why 3?
Wouldn't it be 2??

Then I'd be able to reply to your interesting question.
 
stovebolts said:
John 3:16 NASB
“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

I believe the word believe in John 3:16 is a transitive verb.
Websters defines it as such.
transitive verb
1
a: to consider to be true or honest
-believe the reports
-you wouldn't believe how long it took
b: to accept the word or evidence of
-I believe you
-couldn't believe my ears
2: to hold as an opinion : SUPPOSE
-I believe it will rain soon

It's pretty straight forward...

But Jesus doesn't stop with just believing. Instead, he goes on to say,
John 3:21 NASB
"But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.”

wrought:
1.: worked into shape by artistry or effort
-carefully wrought essays
2: elaborately embellished : ORNAMENTED
3: processed for use : MANUFACTURED
-wrought silk
4: beaten into shape by tools : HAMMERED —used of metals
5: deeply stirred : EXCITED —often used with up
-gets easily wrought up over nothing

After all, we are God's workmanship.

First, you have to believe that Jesus was sent by God, and the things Jesus says and does is truth.
Second, you have to live out those truths.


Yes, they believed, but they did not practice what they believed. Scripture speaks to this in terms of hardening one's heart and we call this willful disobedience. When we harden our hearts to sin and our sin becomes willful disobedience, then we bring death upon ourselves. We can call this sin that leads to death.


I've known wondering for what, just under a decade now. (Has it been that long lol). I understand that you're new to the conversation with her, but I guarantee you that she does not believe in easy believism. She promotes walk the talk. In other words, don't only 'believe' Jesus, but do as Jesus did.
Click to expand...
I don’t question what she believes. That’s not my point. My point is what “believe in God and you’ll be saved” means to the unbeliever who hears this. If you have to define what believe meant to them in the first century that is DIFFERENT than what we in our culture understand, one needs to love others enough to consider this.

In plain words, what if telling someone who thinks, as pretty much everyone does, that believe just means “agree with,” that believing in God is sufficient for Heaven means they never ask and receive forgiveness for sin and so become truly forgiven and saved? They “believed” in God as they understood that 21st century term to mean but Jesus says, “depart from me, I never knew you?” For example, Putin believes in God apparently. Sees no problem with believing in God (my only objection, not believing Jesus) and murdering those who oppose his rule.

I would be very cautious offering what needs to be changed (a mental agreement) in order to be saved. That what “believe” means in 2022. That’s all I mean. Jesus told people very different things to include selling all you own or leaving all you know to follow him. I don’t select out the cheapest response (give mental agreement) and offer that universally. God is not obligated to uphold that which we blithely promised.

What if God measures our believing not by our agreeing but by our obeying? And what if He asks us why we left “obeying” out of our gospel presentation?

Just something to consider.
 
Mister E said:
Easy believism? Is that a thing?

Can you explain the concept to these three?

One of the criminals who were hanged there was hurling abuse at Him, saying, “Are You not the Christ? Save Yourself and us!” But the other answered, and rebuking him said, “Do you not even fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? “And we indeed are suffering justly, for we are receiving what we deserve for our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong.” And he was saying, “Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!” And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.” (Luke 23)
Click to expand...
Since one believed and the other didn’t, I doubt one can call that easy beliefism.
 
Mister E said:
To be clear- I was asking for someone to explain to me- how they would describe “easy believism” (whatever that is) to those two on his left and right. Jesus is listening. 😂

Here I am... stuck in the middle with you.

Enjoy your dinner.
Click to expand...
Thank you kind sir.

So, here I am ready to explain easy believism, which I bet you already know,....:

For the thief on the left:
This thief mocks God. He does not believe Jesus is the Son of God...for if He were, He'd surely get Himself down from that cross. He just would have liked to use Jesus to get them all from off those crosses. This thief has no knowledge of God, no recognition of Him. So this thief has No Believism.
Hebrews 11:6
And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.


For the thief on the right: (on the right side of God, of course)
This thief feels some love for Jesus. He realizes that he is a sinner and deserves to be on that cross.
He has a respectful fear of God and feels he is receiving what he deserves for his sinful deeds.
He appeals to Jesus to remember him in His Kingdom, he is basically asking Jesus for forgiveness,,,and anyone that seeks God for forgiveness will find Him.
Romans 5:8
But God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

Psalm 86:5
You, Lord, are forgiving and good, abounding in love to all who call to you


For Mister E
Easy believism is a term that is actually used by some pastors, as is the term cheap grace.
On these forums I've also heard the term greasy grace, but I've never heard any pastor/teacher use this term, although that does not mean it hasn't been since I haven't heard everyone at every moment.

What it means is that some make grace cheap by not wanting to contribute to it.
Some want to make believing easy.
IOW, they feel like Jesus has done it all and no further action is required by those that believe.
As Dorothy Mae would say, believing in God with no action is no belief at all.

If we want to believe what Jesus taught then we also have to understand that Jesus wants us to be God's hands and feet on this earth. He wants us to make earth a better place to live in. This requires some work or good deeds. If we just say, I believe and that's enough, what have we contributed to the Kingdom of God? Nothing.

Jesus said we are to consider our discipleship before we make the decision to follow Him:
Luke 14:27-30
27“Whoever does not carry his own cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple.
28“For which one of you, when he wants to build a tower, does not first sit down and calculate the cost to see if he has enough to complete it?
29“Otherwise, when he has laid a foundation and is not able to finish, all who observe it begin to ridicule him, 30saying, ‘This man began to build and was not able to finish.’


So, yes, being a Christian carries with it some work, some good deeds, some contribution to the Kingdom of God.
If we say that ONLY believing is necessary, then we cheapen God's sacrifice for us.
He died for us to forgive our sins,
To purify our hearts,
and to do His work - as best we can.
 
wondering said:
Thank you kind sir.

So, here I am ready to explain easy believism, which I bet you already know,....:

For the thief on the left:
This thief mocks God. He does not believe Jesus is the Son of God...for if He were, He'd surely get Himself down from that cross. He just would have liked to use Jesus to get them all from off those crosses. This thief has no knowledge of God, no recognition of Him. So this thief has No Believism.
Hebrews 11:6
And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.


For the thief on the right: (on the right side of God, of course)
This thief feels some love for Jesus. He realizes that he is a sinner and deserves to be on that cross.
He has a respectful fear of God and feels he is receiving what he deserves for his sinful deeds.
He appeals to Jesus to remember him in His Kingdom, he is basically asking Jesus for forgiveness,,,and anyone that seeks God for forgiveness will find Him.
Romans 5:8
But God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

Psalm 86:5
You, Lord, are forgiving and good, abounding in love to all who call to you


For Mister E
Easy believism is a term that is actually used by some pastors, as is the term cheap grace.
On these forums I've also heard the term greasy grace, but I've never heard any pastor/teacher use this term, although that does not mean it hasn't been since I haven't heard everyone at every moment.

What it means is that some make grace cheap by not wanting to contribute to it.
Some want to make believing easy.
IOW, they feel like Jesus has done it all and no further action is required by those that believe.
As Dorothy Mae would say, believing in God with no action is no belief at all.

If we want to believe what Jesus taught then we also have to understand that Jesus wants us to be God's hands and feet on this earth. He wants us to make earth a better place to live in. This requires some work or good deeds. If we just say, I believe and that's enough, what have we contributed to the Kingdom of God? Nothing.

Jesus said we are to consider our discipleship before we make the decision to follow Him:
Luke 14:27-30
27“Whoever does not carry his own cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple.
28“For which one of you, when he wants to build a tower, does not first sit down and calculate the cost to see if he has enough to complete it?
29“Otherwise, when he has laid a foundation and is not able to finish, all who observe it begin to ridicule him, 30saying, ‘This man began to build and was not able to finish.’


So, yes, being a Christian carries with it some work, some good deeds, some contribution to the Kingdom of God.
If we say that ONLY believing is necessary, then we cheapen God's sacrifice for us.
He died for us to forgive our sins,
To purify our hearts,
and to do His work - as best we can.
Click to expand...

Thanks for your response. Yes, I know what folks mean by the term. I reject it out of hand.

Was Jesus blood and breath (life) cheap? That's what it cost for him to promise that thief (on the right side, as you say) a place in paradise. We don't know if he felt some love or some fear- the text doesn't say. The accounts in Matthew and Mark tell us that both of the thieves were among those (along with the Scribes and Priests, soldiers and passersby) hurling insults at him, mocking him. Only in the account from Luke does it indicate that at some point one of the thieves felt some remorse or regret, or a sense acknowledging that they were getting what they deserved while Jesus was being unjustly punished. -That's all it says.

The text doesn't even say--- "and the thief believed" when Jesus told him that " “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.”

All it says concerning this thief is that he asked-- “Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!”

It was a plea. It wasn't a special prayer. It wasn't belief plus anything. But it sure as hell wasn't cheap. Here was the price paid>>

And Jesus, crying out with a loud voice, said, “Father, INTO YOUR HANDS I COMMIT MY SPIRIT.” Having said this, He breathed His last.
 
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