Believing in Wrong Doctrine: Will I lose my salvation?

[Walpole]

Agreed.
But we do have to say that the Apostolic Fathers did not have this rule. It became a Traditional later on,,,can't remember when.

The majority of the Apostolic fathers were in fact celibate. Married clergy in the early Church was a concession at first since the earliest Christians were converts. Additionally, those clerics who were married were expected to practice clerical continence.

 

[Walpole]

Please document your source, otherwise it could be plagiarism.

Plagiarism? Is this a joke?

It is a fact the Eastern Churches permit married priests. The only exception to this (those Eastern Catholics in diaspora) was just recently lifted.

 

[GodsGrace]

The majority of the Apostolic fathers were in fact celibate. Married clergy in the early Church was a concession at first since the earliest Christians were converts. Additionally, those clerics who were married were expected to practice clerical continence.

Do you know when it became official ?

 

[ezra]

As a courtesy, please read through the thread before interjecting. Had you done so, you would have seen what I wrote was a reply to this...

https://christianforums.net/Fellows...-lose-my-salvation.78357/page-18#post-1495123

i have read the post and i am familiar with the scripture what r.c has to do with it is beyond me

 

[chessman]

Just so I can be sure you are not guilty of a double-standard, can you give me the name of your church

I can, but I will not.

I want to see if they too forbid marriage.

As previously posted using, Jesus’s teaching on what God sanctioned marriage is to prove it, a man desiring to ‘marry’ his sister is not a God sanctioned marriage to begin with, any more than a man desiring to ‘marry’ his brother is.

 

[OzSpen]

I never claimed the Book of Hebrews as not inerrant.

I did answer your question ---> https://christianforums.net/Fellows...-lose-my-salvation.78357/page-16#post-1495049

I'll repeat my answer: All the books the Church so declared.

Are you talking about the canon of Scripture of the Council/Synod of Carthage of AD 397 that confirmed the canon of Scripture? Some of the deuterocanonical books (Apocrypha) were included? The Book of Hebrews was included in this canon.

So, is the Book of Hebrews contained in the inerrant/infallible Scriptures?

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

No Oz,,,,
This is common knowledge.
No plagiarism....

wondering,

It still needs to be documented from some statistical source. Otherwise it's hear-say and is not adequate evidence.

Back in 2013, we had this story in Australia:

Father Kevin Lee, a priest in Sydney, Australia, came forward this week to admit that he's been secretly married for a full year, and that he hasn't done much to hide this fact from church leaders, who turned a blind eye to his actions. That is, of course, until he publicly admitted his secret marriage, which immediately led to his removal from ministry. So why come forward?

Lee, who is now writing a tell-all book about priestly celibacy, says he wanted to call attention to just how many priests aren't following that vow in hopes that the church will make a change to the requirement.

"That's one of the reasons that's motivated me to make public my admission that I'm one of those people who's been a pretender: To draw to the attention of the public that there are more like me, in fact most of them," he told an Australian TV news station.
Of course such a sensational story is going to gain traction in the media, but Lee's claim that "most" priests are not following their vow of celibacy seems highly suspect. We know some priests broke that vow by sexually abusing minors (Are Catholic priests leading secret double lives? (U.S. Catholic).​

See this interview with Kevin Lee on ABC TV, Australia about sexual abuse in the church. He was killed in a Typhoon in the Philippines in 2013, only 6 weeks after the birth of his daughter.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Plagiarism? Is this a joke?

It is a fact the Eastern Churches permit married priests. The only exception to this (those Eastern Catholics in diaspora) was just recently lifted.

Again, you fail to document your statements.

When you do it this way, you force me to go looking to see if what you said is true. That's not the way it should be on a forum where information is shared. Pleas help that info to be legit by documentation of your evidence.

 

[WIP]

No, marriage begins with the free consent of a man and woman to give and accept each other through an indissoluble covenant.

I noticed you didn't include consummation. Why not?

 

[ezra]

I noticed you didn't include consummation. Why not?

none of this amounts to any thing priest not getting married is not salvation threatening

 

[WIP]

none of this amounts to any thing priest not getting married is not salvation threatening

I'm just trying to understand the basis behind a statement that Walpole made earlier. I probably should drop it though since it is off topic. Actually, this whole thread has been off topic for a few pages now. I won't continue further.

 

[OzSpen]

Do you know when it became official ?

wondering,

Some evidence I've found indicates:

The evidence gathered in this document (with footnotes) states:

In the patristic era, clerical celibacy, strictly speaking meant the inability to enter marriage once a higher Order had been received. The first legislative expression of this is found in the eastern councils of Ancyra (314), c. 10, and Neocaesarea (ca. 314-325), c. 1, for deacons and priests respectively. An Armenian collection of canons, probably from 365, includes this prohibition of marriage and it is clearly expressed in the Apostolic Constitutions and Apostolic Canons of the late fourth century. Canon 14 of the Ecumenical Council of Chalcedon (451) likewise endorses this discipline (albeit indirectly), and it is found in other documents of the fifth and subsequent centuries which consider the practice to be an ancient and timeless tradition. ​

(Priestly celibacy in patristics and in the history of the Church, Roman Cholij).​

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

I'm just trying to understand the basis behind a statement that Walpole made earlier. I probably should drop it though since it is off topic. Actually, this whole thread has been off topic for a few pages now. I won't continue further.

WIP,

Do you consider a requirement for pastors, clergy or priests to be celibate is sound doctrine?

Or is it wrong doctrine that doesn't have eternal salvific consequences?

I'm of the view that certain fundamental doctrines are necessary to ensure salvation (these are not works, but beliefs as one grows or fades in the faith):

• The Triune God;
• Father, Son and Holy Spirit are each God;
• Jesus' atoning sacrifice for the sins of the world,
• Jesus' bodily resurrection, and
• Jesus' second coming to judge both the believer and the unbeliever (the believer will not be judged for sins of which he has been justified).

I don't think you're off topic when discussing the requirement of celibacy for church leadership.

Perhaps others can think of foundational theology to guarantee salvation.

Oz

 

[JLB]

Christ teaches us today via the means He left: His Church.

Who teaches the Church today?

 

[JLB]

The Church is Apostolic, which means by virtue of her Apostolic succession via the episcopacy, historical continuity of the Apostolic ministry is the guarantee of the Apostolic tradition and faith of the Church.

Please post the scripture that says the Church is apostolic?


There are Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors and Teachers.



JLB

 

[JLB]

No, this gnostic concept of an infused knowledge,

The problem with your theory is no one, including myself has mentioned anything about “infused knowledge”.

Where did you come up with that term?

Does it come from the scriptures?


JLB

 

[JLB]

An individual faith apart from the faith of the Church is foreign to Christianity.

How can someone have faith apart from God.


Faith comes by hearing God.

Here are some examples of people who heard God, received faith and obeyed Him.


By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith. Hebrews 11:7


By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going.
Hebrews 11:8




JLB

 

[JLB]

An individual faith apart from the faith of the Church is foreign to Christianity.

An individual receives faith from God.

The Church is made up of individuals.




JLB

 

[JLB]

An individual faith apart from the faith of the Church is foreign to Christianity.

When you say “the Church” are you referring to the Roman Catholic Church?



JLB

 

[OzSpen]

Do you know when it became official ?

wondering,

Somewhere in this thread, you asked for a summary of Gnostic beliefs in 25 words. I can't do it in 25 words, but here are some basic beliefs:

1. The material world is bad, the spirit world is good. The material world is under the control of evil, ignorance or nothingness.
2. A divine spark is somehow trapped in some (but not all) humans and it alone, of all that exists in this material world, is capable of redemption.
3. Salvation is through a secret knowledge by which individuals come to know themselves, their origin and destiny.
4. Since a good God could not have created an evil world, it must have been created by an inferior, ignorant or evil god. Usually the explanation given is that the true, good God created or emanated beings (Archons) who either emanated other Archons or conjugated to produce them until a mishap by Sophia (Wisdom) led to the creation of the evil Archon who created our world and pretends to be God. He hides truth from humans, but sparks of Sophia in some humans fill them with an urge to return to the Pleroma (divine realm) where they belong (Gnosticism, Christian History, Christianity.com, Dan Graves).

A number of Christians in my city claim that they know the truth of God from the Holy Spirit within them and God speaks to their hearts. This is the experiential or existential religion that I consider has close parallels with Gnosticism's 'divine spark' and 'secret knowledge'.

Oz