Believing in Wrong Doctrine: Will I lose my salvation?

[JLB]

A large portion of the New Testament was written to refute and condemn various Gnostic beliefs. 1 Tim 4:1-4 is one such example...

The "doctrine of demons" which forbade marriage and certain foods to which St. Paul was warning St. Timothy is a direct attack against Gnosticism.

Paul was not attacking correct gnostic beliefs.

The Holy Spirit was warning through Paul that in the “latter times”, referring to a time period in did not live in, nor was he familiar with, some would depart from the faith, because they listened and followed doctrines of demons.

Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 1 Timothy 4:1



JLB

 

[ezra]

I'm just trying to understand the basis behind a statement that Walpole made earlier. I probably should drop it though since it is off topic. Actually, this whole thread has been off topic for a few pages now. I won't continue further.

if there was any kind of merit in it at all that would be different you not going to get a straight answer

 

[ezra]

I don't think you're off topic when discussing the requirement of celibacy for church leadership.

Perhaps others can think of foundational theology to guarantee salvation.

nothing in the Bible says you have to be celibate to serve.. imo this topic has gotten so far away from scripture it reaps with mans traditions . the main thing one must be faithful to his family husband of one wife .yes it reeks of carnal ordinances

 

[chessman]

Do you know when it became official ?

In the original apostolic churches (as evidenced by the following Scriptures), the priests had the following requirements. Notice they were required to be a husband.

Therefore the overseer must be irreproachable, the husband of one wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, skillful in teaching, not addicted to wine, not a violent person, but gentle, peaceable, not loving money, managing his own household well, having children in submission with all dignity (but if someone does not know how to manage his own household, how will he take care of the church of God?), not newly converted, lest he become conceited and fall into the condemnation of the devil. But he must also have a good testimony from those outside, in order that he may not fall into disgrace and the trap of the devil.​

1 Timothy 3:2-7 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=1 Timothy 3:2-7&version=LEB



By the year 1139 A.D. the RCC had departed from this faith and decreed the following canon, which forbids priests from being a husband:

6. We also decree that those in the orders of subdeacon and above who have taken wives or concubines are to be deprived of their position and ecclesiastical benefice. For since they ought to be in fact and in name temples of God, vessels of the Lord and sanctuaries of the holy Spirit, it is unbecoming that they give themselves up to marriage and impurity.​

​

http://www.papalencyclicals.net/councils/ecum10.htm​

​

 

[DiscipleDave]

DiscipleDave said: Any doctrine that a person believes in that is contrary to the Word of God, is a doctrine that could cause Salvation issues.
Jesus Christ is the Word, if you believe something that is contrary to the Word, you believe something that is contrary to Jesus Christ.
The Apostle Paul plainly taught that what he teaches are commandments from Jesus Christ. Therefore if you believe something contrary to what Paul taught, then you believe contrary to the commandments of Jesus Christ.
To believe in Jesus is to believe in His Word.
If you believe something that is contrary to His Word, then how are you believing in Jesus?

Wondering said

I couldn't agree more!

But then why do we disagree on doctrine?
Doctrine just means a teaching...it could be the doctrine of a church or the doctrine of Jesus.

It is written several times to be of ONE MIND, to think the same thing. Satan does not want us to be in unity, does not want us to be ONE BODY, ONE CHURCH. Therefore we have over 120 different denominations today. The Church is so divided, that it has no power like it use to.

Any doctrine, whether a doctrine of Jesus, or a doctrine of the a Church, or what other title you decide to call it, ANY doctrine that is contrary to Scriptures is a false doctrine, regardless what name is attached to it.

Wondering said

I find that Jesus taught that salvation can be lost.
I find that Paul also taught this, as did the other writers.

The problem with this is this generation does not understand that we are in a race, and have not won it yet. A person who GETS SAVED, starts to Run the Race. BEING SAVED is remaining in the Race and not falling away from it. Winning the Race ONLY happens the Day Jesus Christ shows up on Earth and the Books are opened and your name is found written therein. That is the ONLY day that determines who is and who is not Saved

Wondering said

So how did eternal salvation come to be accepted?

Lets look at Scriptures shall we?

Heb_5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Eternal Salvation according to this inspired by God Scriptures plainly teaches that Eternal Salvation is given to them that OBEY HIM. That is an ongoing process, is it not?

Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Just because a person gets Saved and chooses to walk on the narrow path does not mean they Can't possibly choose to leave it. Even the mere fact that it says there is a difficult way and an easy way indicates LIFE is not automatic or given at a particular time, but is something that you have to remain on.

Rom_2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

Even this verse does not teach one HAS eternal Life, but that it is something to attain later, by patient continuance in doing Good, remain in the race.

1Ti_6:19 Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.

Yet another verse that indicates a person does not have eternal LIFE, TODAY, but is something that we shall get later, when we win the race and are Raptured up, that is the ONLY DAY that a person is TRULY SAVED.

Tit_1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began; Tit_3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

HOPE of Eternal Life, yet again, something that we Wait for, want, Hope for.

Jud_1:21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

This verse also speaks of NOT having Eternal Life right now, but looking for it.

Jesus our Lord and Savior, plainly told us also that Eternal Life is to come, not that we have it as soon as we get Saved:

Mat_24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

ONLY they that endure to the end (remain in the race) will be Saved. That is what Scriptures plainly teach.

Wondering said

Did Calvin know more than Jesus or Paul?

Can't speak for Calvin, don't know him nor ever heard him speak. But nobody knows more than Jesus, except His Father in Heaven. For the Father knows the very Hour that the Rapture will take place, not even Jesus knows that.

Wondering said

Herein lies the difficulty....we all believe we have the right doctrine...even though we disagree!

There is only one TRUTH. And God will reveal to whom God will reveal it.

Wondering said

We have a poster here that believes Jesus taught differently than Paul.

And how could you believe ALL doctrine is equal? For instance, I've stated that believing in OSAS or eternal security, could be a cause of loss of salvation. How could having a misunderstanding of the Trinity be a cause for loss even though it's a tenet of Christianity?

ALL doctrines are NOT equal. There is ONE TRUTH, and that TRUTH does not contradict any verse in all of Scriptures. False doctrines today that contradict this or that verse are NOT TRUE. For example OSAS is contrary to the verses which plainly teach a persons name can be blotted out of the Book of Life. That in and of itself proves that OSAS can't be correct, because it contradicts those verses that teach a person who is written in the Book of Life, can be blotted out of it, therefore once being written in it, SAVED, then being removed from it (no longer Saved)

Misunderstanding Scriptures is not a cause for loss of one's Salvation, Prophecies are misunderstood daily, but does not cause one to lose Eternal Life. However, Believing something that is CONTRARY to plain verses in Scriptures that can most certainly cause one to stumble on their path to life everlasting, they have NOT endured sound doctrine to the end of the race, but believe doctrines that are contrary to Scriptures. Those who can't seem to set aside that sin that so easily besets them also are not enduring to the end. Every single message to the 7 churches is instructions for CHRISTIANS to OVERCOME this or that. If you are not OVERCOMING then you are not listening to the messages given to the Churches for the last days.

 

[OzSpen]

In the original apostolic churches (as evidenced by the following Scriptures), the priests had the following requirements. Notice they were required to be a husband.

Therefore the overseer must be irreproachable, the husband of one wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, skillful in teaching, not addicted to wine, not a violent person, but gentle, peaceable, not loving money, managing his own household well, having children in submission with all dignity (but if someone does not know how to manage his own household, how will he take care of the church of God?), not newly converted, lest he become conceited and fall into the condemnation of the devil. But he must also have a good testimony from those outside, in order that he may not fall into disgrace and the trap of the devil.​

1 Timothy 3:2-7 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=1 Timothy 3:2-7&version=LEB



By the year 1139 A.D. the RCC had departed from this faith and decreed the following canon, which forbids priests from being a husband:

6. We also decree that those in the orders of subdeacon and above who have taken wives or concubines are to be deprived of their position and ecclesiastical benefice. For since they ought to be in fact and in name temples of God, vessels of the Lord and sanctuaries of the holy Spirit, it is unbecoming that they give themselves up to marriage and impurity.​

​

http://www.papalencyclicals.net/councils/ecum10.htm​

​

chessman,

Where is the NT evidence of church leaders with the title of 'priest'?

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

It is written several times to be of ONE MIND, to think the same thing. Satan does not want us to be in unity, does not want us to be ONE BODY, ONE CHURCH. Therefore we have over 120 different denominations today. The Church is so divided, that it has no power like it use to.

Dave,

From where did you gain that statistic?

Oz

 

[WIP]

WIP,

Do you consider a requirement for pastors, clergy or priests to be celibate is sound doctrine?

Or is it wrong doctrine that doesn't have eternal salvific consequences?

I'm of the view that certain fundamental doctrines are necessary to ensure salvation (these are not works, but beliefs as one grows or fades in the faith):

• The Triune God;
• Father, Son and Holy Spirit are each God;
• Jesus' atoning sacrifice for the sins of the world,
• Jesus' bodily resurrection, and
• Jesus' second coming to judge both the believer and the unbeliever (the believer will not be judged for sins of which he has been justified).

I don't think you're off topic when discussing the requirement of celibacy for church leadership.

Perhaps others can think of foundational theology to guarantee salvation.

Oz

I do not believe Scripture specifies that a member of the clergy must remain celibate. In fact, Peter himself was a married man. We know this because in Matthew 8:14 it talks about his mother-in-law.

The reason I said I was off topic is because I was discussing general requirements for marriage with Walpole. He had indicated at one point that it was unBiblical to be married if the couple were unable or failed to consummated the marriage. He appears to base his entire premise on one verse as he replied to me, "the two shall become one flesh." Although he didn't identify the verse, I recognized the text from Mark 10:6-8;

"But from the beginning of the creation, God made them male and female. For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh; so then they are no longer two, but one flesh." NKJV

It is my understanding that Walpole takes this verse to mean consummation of the marriage sexually and I have not seen it this way. My understanding of this verse is not a physical joining of the couple but a relational joining and sexual relations are a part of the marriage relationship but not necessarily a requirement.

The reason I do not believe sexual relations are what is meant by Mark 10 is because we as children are not engaged nor do we ever consummate our relationship with our parents through sexual relations. In fact, per Leviticus 18 it is forbidden. Mark 10 says we are to leave our father and mother to be joined to our spouse. So what are we leaving? I believe Jesus was speaking about the level of our relationship with our parents and our dependence upon them and not a sexual relationship.

Furthermore, Jesus talks of our relationship with Him as a marriage relationship but nowhere that I am aware of does He indicate that sexual relations have anything to do with that relationship.

 

[GodsGrace]

In the original apostolic churches (as evidenced by the following Scriptures), the priests had the following requirements. Notice they were required to be a husband.

Therefore the overseer must be irreproachable, the husband of one wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, skillful in teaching, not addicted to wine, not a violent person, but gentle, peaceable, not loving money, managing his own household well, having children in submission with all dignity (but if someone does not know how to manage his own household, how will he take care of the church of God?), not newly converted, lest he become conceited and fall into the condemnation of the devil. But he must also have a good testimony from those outside, in order that he may not fall into disgrace and the trap of the devil.​

1 Timothy 3:2-7 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=1 Timothy 3:2-7&version=LEB



By the year 1139 A.D. the RCC had departed from this faith and decreed the following canon, which forbids priests from being a husband:

6. We also decree that those in the orders of subdeacon and above who have taken wives or concubines are to be deprived of their position and ecclesiastical benefice. For since they ought to be in fact and in name temples of God, vessels of the Lord and sanctuaries of the holy Spirit, it is unbecoming that they give themselves up to marriage and impurity.​

​

http://www.papalencyclicals.net/councils/ecum10.htm​

​

I skimmed through the above...no. 7 says that this is confirming previous rules. Many times councils were held to affirm rules and perhaps even making them doctrine, as in this case.

no. 7
7. Adhering to the path trod by our predecessors, the Roman pontiffs Gregory VII, Urban and Paschal, we prescribe that nobody is to hear the masses of those whom he knows to have wives or concubines. Indeed, that the law of continence and the purity pleasing to God might be propagated among ecclesiastical persons and those in holy orders, we decree that where bishops, priests, deacons, subdeacons, canons regular, monks and professed lay brothers have presumed to take wives and so transgress this holy precept, they are to be separated from their partners. For we do not deem there to be a marriage which, it is agreed, has been contracted against ecclesiastical law. Furthermore, when they have separated from each other, let them do a penance commensurate with such outrageous behaviour.

I'm not going to check this out further...I must say that I agree with Walpole ... I seem to remember that this practice of celibacy started before the above mentioned council.

In any case, I would say it doesn't really matter - I was just trying to refresh my memory.

What is important is that there are rules to be following when joining any organization...the priesthood is one of them.

Also, you call this departing from the faith. Herein lies the problem...why call it departing from the faith??

When doctrine is made that you or I may not agree with, or some rule is prescribed in a church that we may not agree with...that is not departing from the faith as most would understand this.

By "faith" you mean here the ORIGINAL BELIEFS of the Apostolic fathers. Maybe it should be said that way?

No One has changed "the faith" more than those of the reformation...and yet you don't call THAT departing from the faith...

 

[WIP]

In the original apostolic churches (as evidenced by the following Scriptures), the priests had the following requirements. Notice they were required to be a husband.

Therefore the overseer must be irreproachable, the husband of one wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, skillful in teaching, not addicted to wine, not a violent person, but gentle, peaceable, not loving money, managing his own household well, having children in submission with all dignity (but if someone does not know how to manage his own household, how will he take care of the church of God?), not newly converted, lest he become conceited and fall into the condemnation of the devil. But he must also have a good testimony from those outside, in order that he may not fall into disgrace and the trap of the devil.​

1 Timothy 3:2-7 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=1 Timothy 3:2-7&version=LEB



By the year 1139 A.D. the RCC had departed from this faith and decreed the following canon, which forbids priests from being a husband:

6. We also decree that those in the orders of subdeacon and above who have taken wives or concubines are to be deprived of their position and ecclesiastical benefice. For since they ought to be in fact and in name temples of God, vessels of the Lord and sanctuaries of the holy Spirit, it is unbecoming that they give themselves up to marriage and impurity.​

​

http://www.papalencyclicals.net/councils/ecum10.htm​

​

I don't agree that it was a requirement to be married. I believe what Paul was saying was that those who were married must be in a monogamous relationship. I could be wrong.

 

[chessman]

Where is the NT evidence of church leaders with the title of 'priest'?

Are you going to answer my question first?

 

[GodsGrace]

I don't agree that it was a requirement to be married. I believe what Paul was saying was that those who were married must be in a monogamous relationship. I could be wrong.

I agree. It just means to have ONLY ONE wife.
It was not a requirement to be married.
And I do agree also with ezra...this celibacy requirement is a man-made rule...which I don't agree with BTW. I'm aware of the fact that some priests find it difficult to give up a family to become a priest. At mid-life they have doubts as to their choice --- and some really miss not having companionship in later life.

Personal observations...no statistics.

 

[JLB]

the priests had the following requirements. Notice they were required to be a husband

No requirement of being a husband is mentioned.

The requirement was being a husband of one wife.



JLB

 

[chessman]

I don't agree that it was a requirement to be married. I believe what Paul was saying was that those who were married must be in a monogamous relationship. I could be wrong.

Okay but according to this Text, the overseers of the church “must be” a husband ( es have only one “wife”, i.e. not zero or two or three wives).

Therefore the overseer must be irreproachable, the husband of one wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, skillful in teaching,​

1 Timothy 3:2 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=1 Timothy 3:2&version=LEB

Just as much as he “must be”, irreproachable, skilled in teaching, etc. he must be a “husband”.

it’s trustworthy sYing (doctrine/teaching) which didn’t originate with Paul, though he’s teaching it to Timothy:

The saying is trustworthy: if anyone aspires to supervision, he desires a good work.​

1 Timothy 3:1 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=1 Timothy 3:1&version=LEB

I kind of make this point not so much to disagree with you (one of my former pastors held your view) but to relate it directly back to the OP question. I am aware of the differing interpretations, indeed the fact that the Greek words for “husband” and “wife” could be translated “man” and “woman.

But here’s my point: You and I are both saved, right?

 

[ezra]

I don't agree that it was a requirement to be married. I believe what Paul was saying was that those who were married must be in a monogamous relationship. I could be wrong.

no your not wrong that is exactly what he was saying ..some things was carried over from the o.t such as Polygamy . some see that as one spouse no matter what--- the ugly D word divorce .. some presbyteries will not ordain a preacher if they been divorced remarried .. imo it should be considered the cause of the split . a man i know was married had 4 kids him and his wife lost 2 babies through miscarriage. something happened she wanted out of the marriage. gave him custody of the kids..he is still single .but if he chose to get married again i would not hold it against him ! might i add this is more bible than the previous post

i must also say depending on the cause ..if a man has been married divorced there was no fault in him as per abuse or stepping out . say the two just couldnt make it work .. then i have no problem on the 2nd marriage .. how ever if he was at fault or the 2nd one failed imo he does not need in the pulpit

 

[JLB]

It is written several times to be of ONE MIND, to think the same thing. Satan does not want us to be in unity, does not want us to be ONE BODY, ONE CHURCH. Therefore we have over 120 different denominations today. The Church is so divided, that it has no power like it use to.

So true.

So here’s the question, according to this scripture, Paul says we are to all come to the unity of the faith.

If we are to come to the unity of the faith, and not be divided in doctrine, nor tossed around by every wind of doctrine, wouldn’t it be important to define what the term “the faith” means, so we can all understand better what we are to be unified in?


What does the term “the faith”, mean to you?


To me it means “the faith” in Christ Jesus.

It comes from God, through hearing the message of His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.


This is the common faith we all have as the Church.


And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ— from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.
Ephesians 4:11-15




JLB

 

[chessman]

The requirement was being a husband of one wife.

Does a bachelor meet this requirement?

 

[GodsGrace]

Wondering said

It is written several times to be of ONE MIND, to think the same thing. Satan does not want us to be in unity, does not want us to be ONE BODY, ONE CHURCH. Therefore we have over 120 different denominations today. The Church is so divided, that it has no power like it use to.

Any doctrine, whether a doctrine of Jesus, or a doctrine of the a Church, or what other title you decide to call it, ANY doctrine that is contrary to Scriptures is a false doctrine, regardless what name is attached to it.

Wondering said

The problem with this is this generation does not understand that we are in a race, and have not won it yet. A person who GETS SAVED, starts to Run the Race. BEING SAVED is remaining in the Race and not falling away from it. Winning the Race ONLY happens the Day Jesus Christ shows up on Earth and the Books are opened and your name is found written therein. That is the ONLY day that determines who is and who is not Saved

Wondering said

Lets look at Scriptures shall we?

Heb_5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Eternal Salvation according to this inspired by God Scriptures plainly teaches that Eternal Salvation is given to them that OBEY HIM. That is an ongoing process, is it not?

Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Just because a person gets Saved and chooses to walk on the narrow path does not mean they Can't possibly choose to leave it. Even the mere fact that it says there is a difficult way and an easy way indicates LIFE is not automatic or given at a particular time, but is something that you have to remain on.

Rom_2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

Even this verse does not teach one HAS eternal Life, but that it is something to attain later, by patient continuance in doing Good, remain in the race.

1Ti_6:19 Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.

Yet another verse that indicates a person does not have eternal LIFE, TODAY, but is something that we shall get later, when we win the race and are Raptured up, that is the ONLY DAY that a person is TRULY SAVED.

Tit_1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began; Tit_3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

HOPE of Eternal Life, yet again, something that we Wait for, want, Hope for.

Jud_1:21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

This verse also speaks of NOT having Eternal Life right now, but looking for it.

Jesus our Lord and Savior, plainly told us also that Eternal Life is to come, not that we have it as soon as we get Saved:

Mat_24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

ONLY they that endure to the end (remain in the race) will be Saved. That is what Scriptures plainly teach.

Wondering said

Can't speak for Calvin, don't know him nor ever heard him speak. But nobody knows more than Jesus, except His Father in Heaven. For the Father knows the very Hour that the Rapture will take place, not even Jesus knows that.

Wondering said


There is only one TRUTH. And God will reveal to whom God will reveal it.

Wondering said

ALL doctrines are NOT equal. There is ONE TRUTH, and that TRUTH does not contradict any verse in all of Scriptures. False doctrines today that contradict this or that verse are NOT TRUE. For example OSAS is contrary to the verses which plainly teach a persons name can be blotted out of the Book of Life. That in and of itself proves that OSAS can't be correct, because it contradicts those verses that teach a person who is written in the Book of Life, can be blotted out of it, therefore once being written in it, SAVED, then being removed from it (no longer Saved)

Misunderstanding Scriptures is not a cause for loss of one's Salvation, Prophecies are misunderstood daily, but does not cause one to lose Eternal Life. However, Believing something that is CONTRARY to plain verses in Scriptures that can most certainly cause one to stumble on their path to life everlasting, they have NOT endured sound doctrine to the end of the race, but believe doctrines that are contrary to Scriptures. Those who can't seem to set aside that sin that so easily besets them also are not enduring to the end. Every single message to the 7 churches is instructions for CHRISTIANS to OVERCOME this or that. If you are not OVERCOMING then you are not listening to the messages given to the Churches for the last days.

:nod

Great post.
Nothing to add.
Except...welcome to the forum.

 

[ezra]

Does a bachelor meet this requirement?

what requirement ?

 

[chessman]

what requirement ?

The one I quoted, then asked a question about:

The requirement was being a husband of one wife.