Believing in Wrong Doctrine: Will I lose my salvation?

[Rollo Tamasi]

He always does. He's a god in his own mind.

Be careful with OzSpen. He even believes that, when you are dead, you are conscious and have a big reunion with your dead family. He got me banned from another forum when I came against him, because he thinks he should be able to spout those heresies with no opposition. He thinks he's Mr. Bible Scholar but, in his case, that's an oxymoron. I don't believe a word he says, with no exceptions.

Don't come against him.
Come against what he says is the truth and prove him wrong.
But don't come against him.

 

[GodsGrace]

How do you think Romans 1:18-20 fit in with this?

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, NKJV

Hi WIP,
It fits in nicely.
I had a thread once on the difference between sin, transgression and iniquity. The above would fit into sin.

Although God gave us the 10 commandments about 3,000 years ago, the Natural Law of God has always existed and is accepted by all civilized persons in the world --- even by atheists.

Romans 1:18-20 is speaking about the Natural Law of God.
Natural Law includes the big sins...everyone knows, instinctively, that murdering someone is wrong. Everyone knows that stealing is wrong...etc.

God ALWAYS held man responsible for...
1. Having the knowledge of Him. God has always revealed Himself to man; even before Abraham; the beginning of the Hebrew history, or the history of Israel and its people. Those who did not have knowledge of God would be the lost persons, as we understand lost today.

2. To those who did have knowledge of God, He expected them to follow the Natural Law; that law which man understands naturally.

Transgression only happens after a law is pronounced. Transgression means breaking a known law.

Iniquity is the result of continuous sin...some call it quenching the Holy Spirit.

 

[GodsGrace]

So we both agree with v6. So what are “these things” Timothy is to teach in order to be a good servant, which he just through mentioning in vs 1-5???

Here’s the list of “these things” from what I read in the passage:

1. That some people will depart from the faith in theses latter days.
And
2. That nothing (and I mean nothing) that has been sanctified by the word of God and prayer is to be rejected specifically because it (whatever has been sanctified by the word of God and prayer) is not supposed to be rejected.

The two examples Paul specifically mentioned of “these things” occuring (which we have wittiness happen in the history of the church) are:

1. Forbidding to marry
2. Abstaining from certain foods

Marriage (that is a Biblical marriage) has been sanctified by God for all humankind (whether the human is an overseer/priest/deacon or they are not). When we see marriage (Biblical sanctified marriage) forbidden in the church we have seen exampled before our very eyes a “departure from the faith”. The same can be seen with forbidding and rejecting meat. That’s simply a “departure from the fath”.

Agree or disagree with anything I’ve said above (and why, please)?

What I don’t see exampled in this passage is ‘loss of salvation’. For goodness sake, Paul just got through saying that nothing that’s been sanctified by the Word of God and prayer is to be rejected.

Recall me asking whether RC priests are saved??? We both agreed that some are and some are not. By them forbidding and/or rejecting marriage they have “departed from the faith” not departed from salvation!

They have simply deviated from the truth (they are mistaken about marriage).

The truth Paul taught Timothy is that nothing, and I mean no-thing (marriage, food, His sheep, etc.), that’s been sanctified by God and prayer is to be rejected.

Make sense?

I understood what you meant by this and mentioned it in a previous post to you. If you wish, I could look for it.
In that post I explained to YOU what you say above and told you that I understood what you were saying.

What you're saying is that the forbidding of marriage is the departing from the faith... But priests being forbidden to marry is NOT the departing from the faith otherwise ALL priests would NOT be saved -- it's the opposite of what you're saying above.

I think you cling too much to detail and we end up speaking about words and detail instead of doctrine and concepts and theology.

I have to go read Timothy again...be back in a few minutes...

OK. This is the problem I'm having with your understanding of THE FAITH.

In 1 Timothy 1:2 Paul says Timothy is a child in THE FAITH.
Could Paul possibly mean the RULES of the faith...or does he mean faith in Jesus?

What does 1 T 1:14 mean? "The faith found in Christ".
He goes on to say how he was saved by having faith in Jesus, by receiving eternal life from Him.

In verses 18 and 19 Paul tells Timothy that he can fight the good fight by keeping FAITH and a good conscience which some have rejected and suffered SHIPWRECK in regard to their FAITH.

Paul is obviously speaking about saving faith in Jesus. Chapter 2:4 goes on to say that God desires that all men be saved...again referring to faith as salvation.

Then Paul gives RULES as to this faith and how to KEEP it:
messages to women. Messages to men who want to be an overseer: husband to only one wife, not a drunkard, etc. messages to deacons....the message of godliness--and the prose that goes with it 3:16.

So when Paul says that in later times some will fall away from the FAITH by paying attention of deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons...what else could he mean but falling away from the SAVING FAITH that is found in Jesus?

These demons that would cause some to fall away from the faith would be those that forbid marriage and abstain from meats which God created for those who BELIEVE AND KNOW the TRUTH...

4:6 Paul is telling Timothy that he has been nourished on the sound doctrine he has been following and on the words of faith.

In verse 4:7 Paul tells Timothy to practice godliness, referring back to 3:16 and the verse prior to 16 which tell HOW to have godliness and how to have confidence in THE FAITH which is in Christ.....verse 3:13.

I don't see how it could mean anything else than falling away from our faith in Christ.

 

[GodsGrace]

Did you not say that you grow in the knowledge of sin?

If you have been set free by Christ from the bondage of sin, then why would you continue to grow in its knowledge?

Sin is the strength of the law! Sin is not the foundation we are built upon.

EZ,

What I said is that as we walk with God, we become more aware of sin.

This is not a bad thing. This is not concentrating on sin.
Philippians 4:8 happens to be one of my favorite verses.
If you tell someone not to think of pink elephants, they will think of a pink elephant. I don't spend my time thinking about sin. THIS is NOT what I meant.

Before we come to know God, we think we're pretty good people...at least I did. I didn't smoke/drink...I wasn't mean to people, I didn't do any of the big sins. I was a pretty nice person.

Or so I thought.

After coming to know our Lord and realizing what a Holy God we serve and how perfect He is and loving and merciful...I became aware of how sinful I was...little things, but sins nonetheless.

I think it's necessary to realize this...to know how Holy God is. I think it's good not to be one of those that say they're good because they haven't killed anybody lately. Do we want to be like them? Or do we desire to be closer to God and better than that?

This is all I meant.

 

[GodsGrace]

I don't believe in any form of OSAS.



Doctrines are "Any truth taught by the Church as necessary for acceptance by the faithful." Doctrines are the divine Church teaching divinely. [Cf. Matthew 28:20] In following false doctrines then the error is in our self.



Doctrine does not cause the soul to be endangered, our error in doctrine, those not taught by the Church, does indeed imperil the soul. The Church was commissioned by Christ to teach the divine Word divinely to the unity of faith. Consider the doctrines of an infinite number of sources. Only one is True, only One is holy, only One is universal, only One is Apostolic. Since truth is immutable, inerrant, and timeless, only one is true given any one doctrine - logically then all the other doctrines followed are false.

What is your opinion?

JosephT

Hi JT,
Welcome to the forum...it's nice to have you here.

A doctrine is the teaching of any particular church.
What you're explaining above is a dogma. I'm sure you know the difference....A dogma MUST be accepted by the faithful and if they don't accept it they have to pray about it.

A doctrine SHOULD be accepted, but there's some lee-way for doubt. This is according to the catholic church, BTW.

Different churches could believe different doctrine. For instance, some churches do teach OSAS. There are some verses that could be taken to mean that salvation cannot be lost..although I agree with you that it can, and this is also what the CC teaches, and many other mainline denominations.

I'd have to say that if a person is following Christ the best he can, and he sincerely believes in his doctrine, God will be the merciful God He is and will forgive us our ignorance. We want to understand God and like to talk about our beliefs on this forum....but all we know for sure is that God is Almighty, not totally understandable, and that we do need to obey His laws.

You say there is only one truth...this is true. But for some doctrine, it's difficult to know what the truth is. For instance: Purgatory. I can't accept the scripture that is used to prove it exists. Whether it does or not, however, has nothing to do with our salvation.

This is what I believe.

 

[GodsGrace]

He always does. He's a god in his own mind.

Be careful with OzSpen. He even believes that, when you are dead, you are conscious and have a big reunion with your dead family. He got me banned from another forum when I came against him, because he thinks he should be able to spout those heresies with no opposition. He thinks he's Mr. Bible Scholar but, in his case, that's an oxymoron. I don't believe a word he says, with no exceptions.

Hi acts28,
You're new here but I'd like you to know that if you speak about another member you have to tag him into the conversation...this is common courtesy. Just use the @ and then write the member's name.

I'd also like to say that I've been on this forum and have known OzSpen for 3 years and he does not believe in any heresies. And he is, if fact, a bible scholar, although you have the freedom to not believe his posts or his beliefs.

Do YOU believe a person is still conscious after death?
Do YOU believe families are reunited after death?

Your belief would be interesting to know.

 

[WIP]

EZ,

What I said is that as we walk with God, we become more aware of sin.

This is not a bad thing. This is not concentrating on sin.
Philippians 4:8 happens to be one of my favorite verses.
If you tell someone not to think of pink elephants, they will think of a pink elephant. I don't spend my time thinking about sin. THIS is NOT what I meant.

Before we come to know God, we think we're pretty good people...at least I did. I didn't smoke/drink...I wasn't mean to people, I didn't do any of the big sins. I was a pretty nice person.

Or so I thought.

After coming to know our Lord and realizing what a Holy God we serve and how perfect He is and loving and merciful...I became aware of how sinful I was...little things, but sins nonetheless.

I think it's necessary to realize this...to know how Holy God is. I think it's good not to be one of those that say they're good because they haven't killed anybody lately. Do we want to be like them? Or do we desire to be closer to God and better than that?

This is all I meant.

Luke 18:9-14 came to mind while I read this.

Also He spoke this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other men—extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.’And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me a sinner!’ I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.” NKJV

 

[GodsGrace]

Luke 18:9-14 came to mind while I read this.

Also He spoke this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other men—extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.’And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me a sinner!’ I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.” NKJV

Good. Yes. This is what I meant.
:nod

 

[williamt]

Please allow me to rephrase my question. If what you say is 100% true and since there is only one Scripture why then is there not only one denomination, sect, or religious order?

After reviewing the post I referenced with my question, I have another question. Are you saying that the Catholic church is a higher authority than the Holy Scriptures and if so, which Catholic church? For reference, below is the text that I referenced.

Are you suggesting that the standard of authority over interpretation is not the Catholic church or are you stating that you're unaware that the Catholic church rejects Sola Scriptura?

Furthermore, you can simply refer to 1 Corinthians 11:19 as to why there are divisions among the universal catholic church:

1 Cor 11:19 for there must be factions among you in order that those who are genuine among you may be recognized.

All denominations agree to central or essential truths of the faith as for example stated in the Nicene Creed. The issue surfaces when bodies redefine the essentials of the faith. For example, Ozspen wants to redefine "reformed" liberally or broadly. Thus liberal denominations actually reject the Nicene essentials and are actually outside denominational definition and fall into sect or cult. Of course this is outrageous in today's identity politics championed by the left.

 

[williamt]

Your post here is insulting to me and ridiculing me for labelling Reformed Arminianism as being next to "gay Christian".

The irony is that as a Reformed Christian from an actual Reformed denomination I find your identity politics insulting to my sensibilities.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

fun fun fun
destroy each other until there is no Christianity left.

 

[OzSpen]

The Church Christ consecrated [Matthew 28:19], first known as "the Way" or the "Two Ways, " Then became known as the "Catholic Church" in Rome.

JosephT

So, for you is the RCC the only church that has the authority to proclaim biblical doctrine for all to follow?

 

[GodsGrace]

Surely you jest! Please don't tell me there are others that believe that heresy?

I jest not.
What do you believe?
No life after death?

 

[GodsGrace]

The irony is that as a Reformed Christian from an actual Reformed denomination I find your identity politics insulting to my sensibilities.

Please WT, I didn't start this thread so we could be insulting....
Please address the O.P.
Thanks!

 

[acts 28]

I jest not.
What do you believe?
No life after death?

For the dead believer, between death and resurrection is what I'm talking about. ZERO consciousness during this period.

For the unbeliever, zero consciousness ever again. No second chances. No unbeliever will ever be resurrected. No unbeliever will ever stand in a judgment, Ps 1:5

No hell. No separate part of man called a soul. Both 100% non-Biblical pagan beliefs.

 

[chessman]

what else could he mean but falling away from the SAVING FAITH that is found in Jesus?

This

These demons that would cause some to fall away from the faith would be those that forbid marriage and abstain from meats which God created for those who BELIEVE AND KNOW the TRUTH.

It is neither your faith in marriage being sanctified by God nor your faith in certain foods being sanctified by God that saves you, nor de-saves you. Yet that’s exactly what he’s talking about here that some people will fall away from. Frankly, it couldn’t be more clear what he means by falling away from the faith here. And it’s not salvation or even faith in Christ. You said it yourself, the demons cause some to fall away from the TRUTH (even capitalized it). The truth is, God has sanctified marriage (even for the Apostles and bishops) and God has sanctified all food. But departure from that true doctrine doesn’t de-save you.

If your goal is simply to copy/paste ‘the SAVING FAITH that is found in Jesus’ into the passage in 1 Tim 4:1/6, then just say so. And we can just agree to disagree. If you want to exegete the passage in 1 Tim 4:1-6 then hang with me and answer my questions and I’ll answer yours.

What you're saying is that the forbidding of marriage is the departing from the faith...

Correct, in addition to forbidding certain foods, because that’s exactly what Paul is saying here.

But priests being forbidden to marry is NOT the departing from the faith ...

nice claim but where’s your reasoning... let’s look at what you said:

otherwise ALL priests would NOT be saved

who said anything about being saved or not saved by either forbidding marriage (which is departing from the true faith about marriage) or permitting marriage (which is the true faith about marraige)??? Not Paul and not me. The idea of salvation (or de-salvation) coming about only by being 100% accurate in all your doctrines/rules IS your OP’s question, right? Do you already know this answer?

I think you cling too much to detail and we end up speaking about words ...

If nothing else from my reply is considered or considered convincing, consider this as compared to what you just said to me

Now the Spirit explicitly says ...​

By teaching these things to the brothers, you will be a good servant of Christ Jesus, trained in the words of the faith and of the good teaching that you have followed faithfully.​

1 Timothy 4:1,6 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=1 Timothy 4:1,6&version=LEB

If the Holy Spirit “explicitly says” those words to Paul (and He did), I want to get the ... accurately detailed. The ... words are “these things” I asked you to specifically comment on. They ARE “these things”. If you don’t desire to speak in detail about these words then I’ll simply and graciously bow out.

In 1 Timothy 1:2 Paul says Timothy is a child in THE FAITH.
Could Paul possibly mean the RULES of the faith...or does he mean faith in Jesus?

You’re not gonna like this ... but ... (just kidding) the word details matter here too actually he said “true child”, not just a child.

Here, I’ll post it and comment on 1 Tim 1:2 (although we were supposed to be working backwards through 1 Tim 4:1-6 and either agreeing or disagreeing (with evidence) on what “these things” are specifically from that passage.

to Timothy, my true child in the faith. Grace, mercy, and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.​

1 Timothy 1:2 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=1 Timothy 1:2&version=LEB

To answer your question specifically, he’s writing these detailed words that followed (there’s that stuff I cling to, too much again) to Timothy as doctirnal instructions (rules) so that he can get them right. 100% right, not just s passing grade. So yes (to answer your question) it’s about RULES. Though I’m not quite sure why you shouted rules, but whatever.

Paul’s very precise in his language so that Timothy isn’t lead astray by other people’s doctrine (rules) such as doctrines (rules) about marriage and eating meats. These being either sanctified by God as good rules or not. Didn’t we agree that the marriage or meats question doesn’t decide one’s salvation status one why or the other. I’m pretty sure we did but I could go back and check if you don’t agree.

What does 1 T 1:14 mean? "The faith found in Christ".

What translation are you quoting?
And what are “these things” from 1 Tim 4:1-6 if you don’t agree with my list?

Paul is obviously speaking about saving faith in Jesus.

When Paul speaks about saving faith in Christ, he says so. Then it becomes OBVIOUS. (Oh my, did I just shout at you??? Just kidding. AGAIN)

4:6 Paul is telling Timothy that he has been nourished on the sound doctrine he has been following and on the words of faith.

Yes there are sound doctrines and unsound doctrines found in the “words of the faith”. Words are important!

I’ll wait for you to either agree or disagree with evidence why on my list of “these things” from the context of 1 Tim 4:1-6.

​

 

[GodsGrace]

Between death and resurrection is what I'm talking about. ZERO consciousness.

You believe in soul sleep.
So do the JWs.
Mainline Christianity does not.

 

[GodsGrace]

This



It is neither your faith in marriage being sanctified by God nor your faith in certain foods being sanctified by God that saves you, nor de-saves you. Yet that’s exactly what he’s talking about here that some people will fall away from. Frankly, it couldn’t be more clear what he means by falling away from the faith here. And it’s not salvation or even faith in Christ. You said it yourself, the demons cause some to fall away from the TRUTH (even capitalized it). The truth is, God has sanctified marriage (even for the Apostles and bishops) and God has sanctified all food. But departure from that true doctrine doesn’t de-save you.

If your goal is simply to copy/paste ‘the SAVING FAITH that is found in Jesus’ into the passage in 1 Tim 4:1/6, then just say so. And we can just agree to disagree. If you want to exegete the passage in 1 Tim 4:1-6 then hang with me and answer my questions and I’ll answer yours.



Correct, in addition to forbidding certain foods, because that’s exactly what Paul is saying here.

nice claim but where’s your reasoning... let’s look at what you said:


who said anything about being saved or not saved by either forbidding marriage (which is departing from the true faith about marriage) or permitting marriage (which is the true faith about marraige)??? Not Paul and not me. The idea of salvation (or de-salvation) coming about only by being 100% accurate in all your doctrines/rules IS your OP’s question, right? Do you already know this answer?

If nothing else from my reply is considered or considered convincing, consider this as compared to what you just said to me

Now the Spirit explicitly says ...​

By teaching these things to the brothers, you will be a good servant of Christ Jesus, trained in the words of the faith and of the good teaching that you have followed faithfully.​

1 Timothy 4:1,6 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=1 Timothy 4:1,6&version=LEB

If the Holy Spirit “explicitly says” those words to Paul (and He did), I want to get the ... accurately detailed. The ... words are “these things” I asked you to specifically comment on. They ARE “these things”. If you don’t desire to speak in detail about these words then I’ll simply and graciously bow out.



You’re not gonna like this ... but ... (just kidding) the word details matter here too actually he said “true child”, not just a child.

Here, I’ll post it and comment on 1 Tim 1:2 (although we were supposed to be working backwards through 1 Tim 4:1-6 and either agreeing or disagreeing (with evidence) on what “these things” are specifically from that passage.

to Timothy, my true child in the faith. Grace, mercy, and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.​

1 Timothy 1:2 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=1 Timothy 1:2&version=LEB

To answer your question specifically, he’s writing these detailed words that followed (there’s that stuff I cling to, too much again) to Timothy as doctirnal instructions (rules) so that he can get them right. 100% right, not just s passing grade. So yes (to answer your question) it’s about RULES. Though I’m not quite sure why you shouted rules, but whatever.

Paul’s very precise in his language so that Timothy isn’t lead astray by other people’s doctrine (rules) such as doctrines (rules) about marriage and eating meats. These being either sanctified by God as good rules or not. Didn’t we agree that the marriage or meats question doesn’t decide one’s salvation status one why or the other. I’m pretty sure we did but I could go back and check if you don’t agree.



What translation are you quoting?
And what are “these things” from 1 Tim 4:1-6 if you don’t agree with my list?



When Paul speaks about saving faith in Christ, he says so. Then it becomes OBVIOUS. (Oh my, did I just shout at you??? Just kidding. AGAIN)



Yes there are sound doctrines and unsound doctrines found in the “words of the faith”. Words are important!

I’ll wait for you to either agree or disagree with evidence why on my list of “these things” from the context of 1 Tim 4:1-6.

​

C, I capitalize for emphasis.....I never scream, so I don't take it like that....
I use the NASB.
Past midnight here, your post will have to wait till tomorrow, but I exegeted a lot from 1 Timothy chapters one to four, if I remember.
Night...

 

[chessman]

I use the NASB.

Okay but you misquoted it then WRT 1 Tim 1:14.

 

[OzSpen]

Surely you jest! Please don't tell me there are others that believe that heresy?

It is not heresy at all. It is orthodox, evangelical, Bible-believing Christianity: 'For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain' (Phil 1:21 NIV).

Where will I, a Christian believer, be one minute after my last breath? My body will become dust and my soul returns to God. That's the consistent message of OT and NT

He always does. He's a god in his own mind.

Be careful with OzSpen. He even believes that, when you are dead, you are conscious and have a big reunion with your dead family. He got me banned from another forum when I came against him, because he thinks he should be able to spout those heresies with no opposition. He thinks he's Mr. Bible Scholar but, in his case, that's an oxymoron. I don't believe a word he says, with no exceptions.

acts 28,

Ridiculing me achieves nothing. Let's discuss the issues instead of your engaging in an Appeal to Ridicule logical fallacy.

Let's get something clear. I get nobody banned from any forums. I'm only a regular poster, just as you are. Only moderators or administrators discipline or ban posters for breaking the ToS or promoting false doctrines.

Yes, I believe that human beings have two dimensions: (1) a physical body that returns to dust at death; and (2) a soul/spirit (the words are used interchangeably in the NT) that survives the grave. That soul is conscious.

How do I know? The Bible tells me so.

What happens to my body and soul/spirit at death?

'Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it' (Eccl 12:7 NIV). That's simple enough. The body returns to dust when it disintegrates in the grave or turns to dust immediately when cremated.

According to James 2:26a, '... the body without the spirit is dead...', this statement indicating that at death, the spirit leaves the body, causing physical death. When do we know the body is dead? When it is separated from the spirit and stops breathing.

This is orthodox, evangelical Christianity to which I adhere. At the point of death, the unseen part of the human being - the spirit, soul - departs to be with Christ.

Jesus on the cross was at the point of death and he stated: 'Then Jesus, calling out with a loud voice, said, “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit!” And after he said this he breathed his last' (Matt 23:46 NET). His 'spirit' went to God at death.

The body has been endowed by the Creator with a “soul” or “spirit” — the terms being used interchangeably at times (cf. Jn. 12:27; 13:21). The soul leaves the body at death (Gen. 35:18; cf. Jas. 2:26) and remains in a separate state until the general resurrection (What Happens to a Person at Death?)​

I'm not teaching something new. It is the truth that has been expounded throughout the history of the church (with some aberrations).

More details are in my articles,

• What happens at death for believer and unbeliever?
• What is the nature of death according to the Bible?

Oz