Believing in Wrong Doctrine: Will I lose my salvation?

[JLB]

Catholics hold that the deposit of faith is the Church, and that her, together with Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition are the sole and infallible rule of faith.

Where is that in scripture?


JLB

 

[JosephT]

Obviously, the Holy Spirit is not lying. But perhaps one of you or us is not hearing Him.

Very well could be! If you are not hearing Him then you must rely on yourself. On the other hand being a member part of the Body of Christ, I can hear the re-play.

I remember when I was in middle school and one day the teacher whispered something into the ear of one student and then asked that student to whisper it to the next and so on around the room. By the time it reached the last student in our class of about 17, the statement had changed into something totally unrelated to what the teacher had told the first student. So was somebody lying or did they not pay attention to what was told them?

Which was it, was he paying attention? This isn't a came of 'pass-it-on'. So, what are you going to do about it, how are you going to solve your problem of "knowing" for sure?

JosephT

 

[JosephT]

Where is that in scripture?


JLB

"And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying: All power is given to me in heaven and in earth. Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world."
[Matthew 28:18-20]

The depositum fidei To lay up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on the true life." [1 Timothy 6:19 committed to Timothy's trust Cf. 2 Timothy 1:12-14]

JosephT

 

[ezrider]

No.

I gave you a crystal clear answer.

I worship Jesus Christ, the Lord God.

Actually your answer was not crystal clear to me.

This is now a different question.


You still have not answered my question.

Here it is again -


Please explain how worshiping the Lord God, is the same as worshiping idols?

They are not the same, nor did I ever say that they were the same, those are your words. What I intimated was that anyone who worships idols could state that they worship the Lord God, because they actually believe in their idols. Therefore when you simply state that you worship the Lord God, it bears no more standing to me than someone who prostrates themselves before a statue of a man hanging on a cross.

I have repeatedly responded to you in agreement that we are to worship the Lord God as Jesus commanded to us: God is Spirit and must be worshiped in Spirit and in Truth. I am positive that you yourself are very familiar with this particular passage, are you not?

If you want to have an honest discussion, then please answer with an honest answer.

I have answered your question as honestly as I can. Now are you going to answer mine with all honesty?

What is the image of God you hold in your heart? Is it the image of Jesus as the son of man?

Jesus said that he who hates his brother without cause has already committed murder in his heart. Likewise he said he who looks at a woman with lust has already committed adultery in his heart. Therefore it is of no concern to me that you say you do not worship idols. So while it may not be a man made image that has been carved in wood or stone, what it the image of the Lord God that you hold in your heart? Is it in the image and likeness of a man?

 

[ezrider]

EZ,

What I said is that as we walk with God, we become more aware of sin.

Like I said before, I already understood what you said. Did you take the time to think upon that which I said? As I walk with the Lord he does not make me more aware of sin. He makes me more aware of His Righteousness. This is why you will see me speaking of a wedding garment and not about dressing ourselves in armor suitable for warfare.

I think it's necessary to realize this...to know how Holy God is. I think it's good not to be one of those that say they're good because they haven't killed anybody lately. Do we want to be like them?

You are like them, just as I am like them under the law of sin.

Now if you would indulge me, would you please respond to each of the following scriptures with how you think we become more aware of sin?


Romans 7:8-9
But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

Does our awareness of sin come from our walk of Faith in the Lord? Or does it come from our knowledge of the Law?


Isaiah 30:1
Woe to the rebellious children, saith the Lord,
that take counsel, but not of me;
and that cover with a covering, but not of my spirit,
that they may add sin to sin:

Where does the idea of smoking, as you used as an example earlier, become a sin. What covering might they be covering themselves with that they may add sin to sin? Blood?


Isaiah 43:24-26
Thou hast bought me no sweet cane with money,
neither hast thou filled me with the fat of thy sacrifices:
but thou hast made me to serve with thy sins,
thou hast wearied me with thine iniquities.
I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake,
and will not remember thy sins.
Put me in remembrance: let us plead together:
declare thou, that thou mayest be justified.

If the Lord has been wearied with your iniquities and has blotted out your sins, then why would you become more aware of sin in your walk with God if God has already blotted them out for his own sake?

I will thank you in advance for taking the time to think upon these scriptures intently and then sharing with us what they mean to you. I look forward toward your comment on each of these passages.

 

[OzSpen]

We know that God and Truth are convertible; St. Thomas says, “Whence it follows not only that truth is in Him, but that He is truth itself, and the sovereign and first truth. “ [Summa Theologica Prima Q, 15 a5]

JT,

I cannot build my theology on Thomas Aquinas's Summa Theologica because Aquinas appealed to Scripture. In this example you provided, Aquinas wrote: 'On the contrary, Our Lord says, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life" (John 14:6) - source.

In addition, the theology that God and truth are convertible, i.e. God = truth, is taught long before Aquinas: 'Guide me in your truth and teach me, for you are God my Savior, and my hope is in you all day long' (Ps 25:5 NIV).

God exists (see Summa Theologica Prima Q,2,3). Truth exists.​

Again, God exists is demonstrated in Scripture way before Thomas:

1. 'In the beginning, God ...' (Gen 1:1);
2. 'They know the truth about God because he has made it obvious to them. 20 For ever since the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky. Through everything God made, they can clearly see his invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse for not knowing God' (Rom 1:19-20 NLT).

God is Immutable (see Summa Theologica Prima Q,9, 1). Truth is immutable.

Immutable means God does not change. Again, way before Aquinas God taught us this attribute about himself:

​

God is not human, that he should lie,​

not a human being, that he should change his mind.​

Does he speak and then not act?​

Does he promise and not fulfil? (Num 23:19 NIV)​

​

God is Eternal. “Now God is His own uniform being; and hence as He is His own essence, so He is His own eternity.” (see Summa Theologica Prima Q,10 2). Truth is eternal.​

Thousands of years before Aquinas, God declared the fact he is eternal:

​

The eternal God is your refuge,​

and underneath are the everlasting arms.​

He will drive out your enemies before you,​

saying, “Destroy them!”(Deut 33:27 NIV)​

Why tarry until 1224-1274, the years of Aquinas's life, for a pronouncement on God's eternity?

God is not contained in space, time or matter. (See Summa Theologica Prima Q,3,1). Truth is not constrained by time, location, or the matter.​

Thousands of years before Aquinas God revealed Himself in the OT: 'Look down from heaven, your holy dwelling-place, and bless your people Israel and the land you have given us as you promised on oath to our ancestors, a land flowing with milk and honey' (Deut 26:15 NIV).

God is Spiritual (see Summa Theologica Prima Q,3,3 & 6). “…it follows that there is no accident in God.” Truth is spiritual.

Again, way before Thomas A, Scripture taught, 'God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth ' (John 4:24 NIV).

God’s law (Divine law) is superior to man’s law. (see Summa Theologica Prima Secundae Partis Q,91,4) Truth is superior to man’s law.​

​

We can unequivocally conclude; God=Truth and such Truth is absolute and Divine.​

Rom 2:18 (NLT) teaches: 'You know what he wants; you know what is right because you have been taught his law'.

As for God = Truth, we know that many thousands of years before Aquinas: 'All your words are true; all your righteous laws are eternal' (Ps 119:160 NIV).

As there is but one and only one faith that can be representative of God’s absolute truth – the one faith that He formed - it can be shown that there is one and only one truth of the meaning of that truth in Sacred Scripture and it resides only in apostolic tradition as it came from this Tradition through Christ. Sacred Scripture born out of God’s will, witnessed and validated through the lives of Holy men, and penned by the Tradition of the very same Church Christ commemorated, the Catholic Church which was made divine to teach a divine Word of God divinely​

​

TRUTH EXISTS in her.​

​

Consider my question about to whom the Holy Spirit lies - to whom is He reality?​

These are your assertions. Where do I find the truth from God that:

• 'one and only one faith that can be representative of God’s absolute truth – the one faith that He formed';
• 'it can be shown that there is one and only one truth of the meaning of that truth in Sacred Scripture '. Please show me that from Scripture as you say this truth is in sacred Scripture.
• Truth in Scripture 'resides only in apostolic tradition as it came from this Tradition through Christ'. Again, I would like you to demonstrate this for me.
• 'born out of God’s will, witnessed and validated through the lives of Holy men, and penned by the Tradition of the very same Church Christ commemorated, the Catholic Church which was made divine to teach a divine Word of God divinely'. This is an assertion that comes without evidence provided by you.
• 'the Catholic Church which was made divine to teach a divine Word of God divinely'. I'm a sceptic after all the sexual abuse that has been exposed in the RCC in Australia through a Royal Commission in 2018.

There seems to be a fixation on the authority of the RCC that overrules the authority of Scripture (2 Tim 3:16-17 NIV).

Oz

 

[JLB]

"And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying: All power is given to me in heaven and in earth. Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world."
[Matthew 28:18-20]

The depositum fidei To lay up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on the true life." [1 Timothy 6:19 committed to Timothy's trust Cf. 2 Timothy 1:12-14]

JosephT

Nothing mentioned here about Catholics hold that the deposit of faith is the Church, and that her, together with Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition are the sole and infallible rule of faith.


He answered and said to them, “Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition? Matthew 15:3



JLB

 

[JLB]

I have answered your question as honestly as I can. Now are you going to answer mine with all honesty?

Please refer to the post number where you answered my question that says

Please explain how worshiping the Lord God is the same as worshiping idols.


Maybe you could give an example of someone who worships the Lord God while also worships idols.



JLB

 

[JLB]

Actually your answer was not crystal clear to me.

Ill try again.


I don’t worship idols (man made objects), I worship Jesus Christ, the Lord God?



JLB

 

[JLB]

They are not the same,

Yes I know, which is why I said it.

What I intimated was that anyone who worships idols could state that they worship the Lord God, because they actually believe in their idols.

Do you worship Jesus Christ?



JLB

 

[chessman]

Catholicism does not diverge from Sacred Scripture, rather it the Church that give both authenticity and credibility to Sacred Scripture. Christ did not come to write a book, there is no evidence, though we are free to assume, that Christ could write.

And He came to Nazareth, where He had been brought-up. And in accordance with the thing having become-a-custom with him, He entered into the synagogue on the day of the Sabbath, and stood up to read. ..​

And having rolled up the scroll, having given it back to the attendant, He sat- down. And the eyes of everyone in the synagogue were looking-intently at Him.​

Luke 4:16,20 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Luke 4:16,20&version=DLNT

Is it customary for someone who is able to read what is written to be able to write?

Was the attendant of the Scripture Jesus read a baptized member of the Roman Catholic Church?

 

[stovebolts]

Hello JosephT and welcome.
I see you are well vesed and show a level of maturity while discussing our faith. I appreciate that.

Without diverging, I'm sure you will agree that we are all part of the Catholic Church,

Catholics meaning universal and church meaning the Body of Christ

 

[OzSpen]

First, Catholicism does not diverge from Sacred Scripture, rather it the Church that give both authenticity and credibility to Sacred Scripture. Christ did not come to write a book, there is no evidence, though we are free to assume, that Christ could write.

JT,

John 8:6-11 (NIV) states:

6 They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him. ​

But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. 7 When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, ‘Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her.’ 8 Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.​

​

9 At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. 10 Jesus straightened up and asked her, ‘Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?’​

​

11 ‘No one, sir,’ she said.​

‘Then neither do I condemn you,’ Jesus declared. ‘Go now and leave your life of sin.’​

Did Jesus write or not?

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Hello JosephT and welcome.
I see you are well vesed and show a level of maturity while discussing our faith. I appreciate that.

Without diverging, I'm sure you will agree that we are all part of the Catholic Church,

Catholics meaning universal and church meaning the Body of Christ

SB,

Do you really believe that we Protestants are considered part of the body of Christ by the RCC?

Oz

 

[JLB]

SB,

Do you really believe that we Protestants are considered part of the body of Christ by the RCC?

Oz

No.

 

[ezrider]

Please refer to the post number where you answered my question that says

Please explain how worshiping the Lord God is the same as worshiping idols.

Maybe you could give an example of someone who worships the Lord God while also worships idols.
JLB

It appears to me that you are more interested in maintaining your festivity in playing games. There is no discussion going on here and I suspect I could respond to your question a dozen times trying to clarify it for you, and you would only ask why do I keep changing my answer.


You say that you worship Jesus Christ. This I can not deny. But why then do you continue to dodge the question I asked of you? Are you incapable or just afraid?

Jesus said that he who hates his brother without cause has already committed murder in his heart. Likewise he said he who looks at a woman with lust has already committed adultery in his heart. Therefore it is of no concern to me that you say you do not worship idols. So while it may not be a man made image that has been carved in wood or stone, what it the image of the Lord God that you hold in your heart? Is it in the image and likeness of a man?

Are you going to answer my question?

 

[ezrider]

SB,

Do you really believe that we Protestants are considered part of the body of Christ by the RCC?

Oz

If the RCC, or the Protestants, or what ever other denominations there are, believe themselves to be in fact part of the Body of Christ; then why do they yet wait for his return? And if Christ has not yet returned, then how can they declare for themselves that Christ is in? Can you explain this?

 

[JLB]

It appears to me that you are more interested in maintaining your festivity in playing games. There is no discussion going on here and I suspect I could respond to your question a dozen times trying to clarify it for you, and you would only ask why do I keep changing my answer.

My questioned to you has remained the same.

I wonder why you won’t answer it?


Please explain how worshiping the Lord God is the same as worshiping idols.


Maybe you could give an example of someone who worships the Lord God while also worships idols.



JLB

 

[JLB]

You say that you worship Jesus Christ. This I can not deny. But why then do you continue to dodge the question I asked of you? Are you incapable or just afraid?

Ill try again.


I don’t worship idols (man made objects), I worship Jesus Christ, the Lord God?


Do you believe Jesus Christ is the Lord God?



JLB

 

[JLB]

Are you going to answer my question?

So while it may not be a man made image that has been carved in wood or stone, what it the image of the Lord God that you hold in your heart? Is it in the image and likeness of a man?

I don’t picture any image of Jesus Christ in my mind while I worship Him.



Hopefully you will answer my question since I have answered two of yours now.


My questioned to you has remained the same.

I wonder why you won’t answer it?


Please explain how worshiping the Lord God is the same as worshiping idols.


Maybe you could give an example of someone who worships the Lord God while also worships idols.


JLB