Believing Must Be The First Step, Right?

[Anchor Of Hope]

So, I suppose you haven’t read the Book of Acts.

Stephen was talking about the Children of Israel in the Wilderness, about the Law that had been given to the Jews for their Salvation. For until the Lord Jesus Christ came, Salvation was for the Jews only. he was preaching to the Jews that had rejected the Lord, reminding them about what God had provided for them, yet when the Lord came as Messiah, they had rejected Him. Stephen was reminding them of this very thing.
The Church began that encompassed the whole world was born on the Day of Pentecost Acts 2:1-4

 

[Anchor Of Hope]

That doesn't really help. Do you know that the Bible speaks of salvation using three different terms--justification, sanctification, and glorification--to represent a past event, an ongoing reality, and a future fulfillment? I don't to what you believe those verses refer to and so I can't figure out what you mean by "our Journey to Christ."


Where is God's grace in all of this? Do you understand that there is no faith without repentance nor repentance without faith?


No, baptism isn't a mere suggestion, but it isn't necessary for justification. It is something Christians must do out of obedience to Christ. He also never mentioned the infilling of the Holy Spirit as necessary for justification. Every believer has the Holy Spirit come and dwell in them when they are justified, that is, when they first repent and put their faith in Christ.

Who says it isn’t necessary ? You haven’t found in the Scripture where it isn’t necessary

 

[onlysaved]

The thief on the cross. Never read his Bible, never attended church, never baptized, never attended a Bible study, never prayed the sinners prayer. All he did was acknowledge who Jesus was. He is in heaven right now for one reason only. Jesus said he could come.

That whole thing WE do, he can't be a Christian because he did x or does Y.. complete hogwash. A Christian isn't a good person. It's a person who puts their trust in Christ that's it and their ain't no more.

Example.. Bob was a child molester. He got caught and went to prison. There he met a pastor, read his Bible and got saved. He still smokes and cusses like a sailor. He is still tempted to be with kids but when he gets out of prison he chooses not to be around kids. He still cusses and smokes but he is still becoming more like Christ by denying his fleshly desires. There is no box labeled Christian. Everyone has to work out their own salvation and though many are tempted by the same things everyone's salvation is unique. That's why it's a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. Not one of us is called to doubt the salvation of others.

On the other hand, he who is without sin feel free to swing away with them rocks.

 

[Anchor Of Hope]

The thief on the cross. Never read his Bible, never attended church, never baptized, never attended a Bible study, never prayed the sinners prayer. All he did was acknowledge who Jesus was. He is in heaven right now for one reason only. Jesus said he could come.

That whole thing WE do, he can't be a Christian because he did x or does Y.. complete hogwash. A Christian isn't a good person. It's a person who puts their trust in Christ that's it and their ain't no more.

Example.. Bob was a child molester. He got caught and went to prison. There he met a pastor, read his Bible and got saved. He still smokes and cusses like a sailor. He is still tempted to be with kids but when he gets out of prison he chooses not to be around kids. He still cusses and smokes but he is still becoming more like Christ by denying his fleshly desires. There is no box labeled Christian. Everyone has to work out their own salvation and though many are tempted by the same things everyone's salvation is unique. That's why it's a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. Not one of us is called to doubt the salvation of others.

On the other hand, he who is without sin feel free to swing away with them rocks.

So, you say

 

[JLB]

Just because you can’t understand the Holy Scripture doesn’t mean my Jesus is a failure.

Your claim was that no one was saved through the preaching of the gospel for three and a half years Jesus walked the earth.

That means His disciples who followed Him for over three years were not saved, according to you.

This is what you have claimed.

Please explain what I don’t understand.

 

[Anchor Of Hope]

Your claim was that no one was saved through the preaching of the gospel for three and a half years Jesus walked the earth.

That means His disciples who followed Him for over three years were not saved, according to you.

This is what you have claimed.

Please explain what I don’t understand.

My friend, if the Disciples had not obeyed the Lord in Acts 1:4, no they would not have been saved. But they were there in Jerusalem, when the Holy Ghost was first poured out. Acts 2:1-4 and it shows a picture of what happened, then after Peter Preached and told the people what they must do in Acts 2:38, then verse 41, the Bible says 3,000 precious souls were added to the Church on the very first day the Church began.

 

[JLB]

My friend, if the Disciples had not obeyed the Lord in Acts 1:4, no they would not have been saved.

Acts 2:4 is about the baptism with the Holy Spirit not salvation.

The apostles were already saved when they believed the gospel.

They they obeyed the call to follow Him.

Do you think the term “My sheep” refers to unsaved people.


My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:27-28

A person is saved when they believe.

Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12

• lest they should believe and be saved.

 

[Anchor Of Hope]

Acts 2:4 is about the baptism with the Holy Spirit not salvation.

The apostles were already saved when they believed the gospel.

They they obeyed the call to follow Him.

Do you think the term “My sheep” refers to unsaved people.


My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:27-28

A person is saved when they believe.

Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12

• lest they should believe and be saved.

"Believe" is an Action Word

Abraham believed God, and it was accounted unto him for righteousness. His faith caused him to move beyond his comfort zone, and he began to walk. If he had not acted on his faith, God would have chosen someone else—because the Lord would have a natural people in this world.

So it is in our day. We believe, and our faith responds to God's Word. Consider Peter, whom God chose to preach the first message on the Day of Pentecost. He laid the foundation upon which the Church would be built. In Acts 2:38, he declared, "You must repent, be baptized in Jesus’ name, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." Verse 41 tells us that 3,000 people obeyed his words that day and were added to the Church.

This is the Born-Again Experience. Simply saying, "I believe," is not enough to fulfill it. Acts 2:1-4 shows us exactly what it looks like to receive the baptism of the Holy Ghost. I know you said receiving the Baptism of the Holy Ghost does not save us, so I must know you have never read John 3:3-5. If I were you, I would not discard these scriptures. If I were you, I would not sell myself short of this beautiful, life-changing experience.

There is no need for you to continue trying to convince me that there is nothing more required than simply saying, "I believe in Jesus Christ." I know better, and you will never persuade me otherwise.

 

[Free]

Who said Baptism is not important?

No one.

No, I don’t agree at all. 1 Peter 3:21 — the like figure Baptism doeth now save us.

Context is important.

1Pe 3:20 because they formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water.
1Pe 3:21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, (ESV)

Baptism does not remove "dirt from the body," that is, it doesn't cleanse. That means baptism itself does not save (justify) and is not necessary for justification. It is a sign of an inward faith, as indicated by it being "an appeal to God for a good conscience." And that in itself is based on the death and "resurrection of Jesus Christ."

The Lord when being Baptized by John the Baptist, said we must do this to fulfill all Righteousness.

Which doesn't have to do with baptism saving anyone.

Peter told the people on the Day of Pentecost, you must Repent and be Baptized in the Name of Jesus Christ and you shall receive the Gift of the Holy Ghost.

Again, as with 1 Pet 3, baptism is an outward declaration of an inward change, of salvation based on the person and finished work of Jesus. It is to be publicly identified with Christ as one of his followers.

The problem with people today is that”they think the Word of God is a Book of Suggestions. A Sad mistake.

Yes, that is a problem for many.

Before we go further, could you please answer some of the previous questions I have asked, namely:

Do you know that the Bible speaks of salvation using three different terms--justification, sanctification, and glorification--to represent a past event, an ongoing reality, and a future fulfillment?

Do you agree that our works don't justify (in the sense of salvation) us before God? Do you believe we are justified by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone?

 

[Free]

Who says it isn’t necessary ? You haven’t found in the Scripture where it isn’t necessary

And you haven't found in the Scripture where it is necessary for justification.

 

[onlysaved]

So, you say

Says Jesus not me..." today you will be with me in paradise "

By grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.

 

[JLB]

There is no need for you to continue trying to convince me that there is nothing more required than simply saying, "I believe in Jesus Christ." I know better, and you will never persuade me otherwise.

Of course not.

But believing is how we are born again… it’s how salvation begins.

After that we must learn to walk according to the Spirit rather than practicing the works of the flesh and continue in our faith steadfast to the end.

receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls. 1 Peter 1:9

 

[Anchor Of Hope]

No one.


Context is important.

1Pe 3:20 because they formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water.
1Pe 3:21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, (ESV)

Baptism does not remove "dirt from the body," that is, it doesn't cleanse. That means baptism itself does not save (justify) and is not necessary for justification. It is a sign of an inward faith, as indicated by it being "an appeal to God for a good conscience." And that in itself is based on the death and "resurrection of Jesus Christ."


Which doesn't have to do with baptism saving anyone.


Again, as with 1 Pet 3, baptism is an outward declaration of an inward change, of salvation based on the person and finished work of Jesus. It is to be publicly identified with Christ as one of his followers.


Yes, that is a problem for many.

Before we go further, could you please answer some of the previous questions I have asked, namely:

Do you know that the Bible speaks of salvation using three different terms--justification, sanctification, and glorification--to represent a past event, an ongoing reality, and a future fulfillment?

Do you agree that our works don't justify (in the sense of salvation) us before God? Do you believe we are justified by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone?

1 You are right Baptism is not about taking a bath. It’s about washing our sins away.

2 your words “Do you know that the Bible speaks of salvation using three different terms--justification, sanctification, and glorification--to represent a past event, an ongoing reality, and a future fulfillment?”
My answer — There is no justification, sanctification, or glorification, until we have repented of our sins, and are Baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, and then receive the Baptism of the Holy Ghost, Peter told the people after they had asked him, well Men and Brethren what must we do to get right with God (Acts 2:37). That’s where Acts 2:38 comes in. If you don’t understand this I don’t know what to tell you my friend.

3 Your words — Do you agree that our works don't justify (in the sense of salvation) us before God? Do you believe we are justified by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone?
My Answer — I agree works as far as charity works, don’t justify a person.
No I don’t agree there is nothing I must do to be saved, like just saying I believe in Jesus Christ, now I’m saved NO
Jesus said, if you love you will keep my commandments.
Jesus said Go into Jerusalem and wait for the Promise of the Holy Ghost.
Jesus told Nicodemus, Verily Verily I say unto you, you must be Born-Again, or you can not SEE the Kingdom of God.
John 3:5 Verily Verily I say unto you, except you are Born of the Water (Baptism) and of the Spirit (Holy Ghost) you can not ENTER the Kingdom of God. If you can’t understand this my friend, there’s nothing I can do to help you.

 

[Hopeful 2]

The thief on the cross. Never read his Bible, never attended church, never baptized, never attended a Bible study, never prayed the sinners prayer. All he did was acknowledge who Jesus was. He is in heaven right now for one reason only. Jesus said he could come.

How can you prove the thief never did anything but admit his sins ?
How can you determine how much time had elapsed between his last sins and his punishment ?
Time in which he could have heard, and believed all that Jesus had come to do ?

That whole thing WE do, he can't be a Christian because he did x or does Y.. complete hogwash. A Christian isn't a good person.

I disagree.
If he isn't a good man, he isn't following the Shepherd.

It's a person who puts their trust in Christ that's it and their ain't no more.

A person who puts their trust in Him is a good person.

Example.. Bob was a child molester. He got caught and went to prison. There he met a pastor, read his Bible and got saved. He still smokes and cusses like a sailor. He is still tempted to be with kids but when he gets out of prison he chooses not to be around kids. He still cusses and smokes but he is still becoming more like Christ by denying his fleshly desires. There is no box labeled Christian.

There is no Christian without repentance from sin and rebirth from God's seed.

Everyone has to work out their own salvation and though many are tempted by the same things everyone's salvation is unique. That's why it's a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. Not one of us is called to doubt the salvation of others.

You seem to think that salvation will come from something different than what the apostles offered the churches.
That being, a turn from sin, and baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins, and thereby, the destruction of the old man, the gift of the holy Ghost, and rebirth from God's own seed.
Those reborn of God cannot bring forth evil fruit.

On the other hand, he who is without sin feel free to swing away with them rocks.

Judgement is up to God.
I can only offer to you what God offered to all of us.
Life in Him !

 

[JLB]

How can you prove the thief did anything but admit his sins ?

The thief confessed Jesus as Lord and believed God would raise Him from the dead.


that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. Romans 10:9

 

[Anchor Of Hope]

Of course not.

But believing is how we are born again.

After that we must learn to walk according to the Spirit rather than practicing the works of the flesh and continue in our faith steadfast to the end.

receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls. 1 Peter 1:9

Believing is not being Born-Again, and you can not prove that by Scripture.
Who said anything about practicing the works of the flesh? Paul told the Church we must walk in the Spirit so we would not fulfill the works of the flesh.
And we can not walk in the Spirit if we have not been filled with the Spirit.
We have many examples in the Book of Acts that shows us what it looks like to receive the Baptism of the Holy Ghost. Acts 2, Acts 8, Acts 10, Acts 19. If we haven’t experienced this experience according to the Book of Acts, then we have not received the Baptism of the Holy Ghost. Repentance, water Baptism in the Name of Jesus Christ, and the Baptism of the Holy Ghost like they received in the Book of Acts, then we have NOT been Born-Again.

 

[Hopeful 2]

The thief confessed Jesus as Lord and believed God would raise Him from the dead.


that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. Romans 10:9

Jesus had power on earth to forgive sins.
So water baptism in His name for the remission of sins...which had yet to be instituted...was unnecessary.
Besides, the thief's death, burial, and promised resurrection "with Christ", were exactly what happens to those now days, who are water baptized for the remission of past sins !
"Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed,..." (Rom 6:3-6)

 

[Free]

1 You are right Baptism is not about taking a bath. It’s about washing our sins away.

No, that is rather Peter’s point in saying “not as a removal of dirt from the body,” which is a metaphor for washing away of sin.

2 your words “Do you know that the Bible speaks of salvation using three different terms--justification, sanctification, and glorification--to represent a past event, an ongoing reality, and a future fulfillment?”
My answer — There is no justification, sanctification, or glorification, until we have repented of our sins, and are Baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, and then receive the Baptism of the Holy Ghost, Peter told the people after they had asked him, well Men and Brethren what must we do to get right with God (Acts 2:37). That’s where Acts 2:38 comes in. If you don’t understand this I don’t know what to tell you my friend.

Your response doesn’t actually answer my question. It could be a simple “yes” or “no,” but you also could include the why of your answer.

3 Your words — Do you agree that our works don't justify (in the sense of salvation) us before God? Do you believe we are justified by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone?
My Answer — I agree works as far as charity works, don’t justify a person.
No I don’t agree there is nothing I must do to be saved, like just saying I believe in Jesus Christ, now I’m saved NO
Jesus said, if you love you will keep my commandments.
Jesus said Go into Jerusalem and wait for the Promise of the Holy Ghost.
Jesus told Nicodemus, Verily Verily I say unto you, you must be Born-Again, or you can not SEE the Kingdom of God.
John 3:5 Verily Verily I say unto you, except you are Born of the Water (Baptism) and of the Spirit (Holy Ghost) you can not ENTER the Kingdom of God. If you can’t understand this my friend, there’s nothing I can do to help you.

Your answer suggests that you haven’t studied this matter enough. The Bible speaks of salvation as both a past event, an ongoing reality, and a future fulfillment. Until you understand that, you’ll continually misunderstand what verses are saying and so misunderstand salvation. Be careful to not add works to salvation since Paul says we are to consider a person who teaches such to be accursed:

Gal 1:8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed.
Gal 1:9 As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed. (ESV)

 

[Hopeful 2]

No, that is rather Peter’s point in saying “not as a removal of dirt from the body,” which is a metaphor for washing away of sin.

How can one have a "good conscience before God" with their past sins still clinging to them ?
And Peter wisely added the "by the resurrection of Christ" part to make sure we can associate forgiveness of sins to Romans 6's description of the rest of water baptism's results.
The repentant's immersion into Christ, (v3), destruction of the old man, (v6), and resurrection with Christ to walk in newness of life, (v6).

 

[Free]

How can one have a "good conscience before God" with their past sins still clinging to them ?
And Peter wisely added the "by the resurrection of Christ" part to make sure we can associate forgiveness of sins to Romans 6's description of the rest of water baptism's results.
The repentant's immersion into Christ, (v3), destruction of the old man, (v6), and resurrection with Christ to walk in newness of life, (v6).

Have you heard of repentance, which precedes baptism?