Believing Must Be The First Step, Right?

[Hopeful 2]

Have you heard of repentance, which precedes baptism?

Yes, I have heard of it.
But "turning from" sin doesn't wash away the past sins.
Neither does it facilitate the destruction of the old man, (Rom 6:6), circumcision of the body of sins, (Col 2:11), or resurrection with Christ to walk in newness of life, (Rom 6:4, Col 2:12).

 

[Free]

Yes, I have heard of it.
But "turning from" sin doesn't wash away the past sins.

Turning to Christ, putting one's faith in him, being justified by God's grace, and so be filled with the Spirit does.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Turning to Christ, putting one's faith in him, being justified by God's grace, and so be filled with the Spirit does.

Agreed, but without "immersion into Christ", that will not occur.
Neither will the old man be destroyed, nor the repentant's resurrection with Christ to walk in newness of life .

 

[Anchor Of Hope]

Jesus had power on earth to forgive sins.
So water baptism in His name for the remission of sins...which had yet to be instituted...was unnecessary.
Besides, the thief's death, burial, and promised resurrection "with Christ", were exactly what happens to those now days, who are water baptized for the remission of past sins !
"Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed,..." (Rom 6:3-6)

The Scripture you quoted was written to the Roman Church, Right?
The Roman Church had already repented of their sins, been Baptized in Jesus Name, and most had received the Baptism of the Holy Ghost. They had already obeyed Acts 2:38.

 

[Anchor Of Hope]

No, that is rather Peter’s point in saying “not as a removal of dirt from the body,” which is a metaphor for washing away of sin.


Your response doesn’t actually answer my question. It could be a simple “yes” or “no,” but you also could include the why of your answer.


Your answer suggests that you haven’t studied this matter enough. The Bible speaks of salvation as both a past event, an ongoing reality, and a future fulfillment. Until you understand that, you’ll continually misunderstand what verses are saying and so misunderstand salvation. Be careful to not add works to salvation since Paul says we are to consider a person who teaches such to be accursed:

Gal 1:8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed.
Gal 1:9 As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed. (ESV)

What was the Plan of Salvation that Paul Preached?

 

[JLB]

Believing is not being Born-Again, and you can not prove that by Scripture.

Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”
Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
Nicodemus answered and said to Him, “How can these things be?”
Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things? Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness. If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven. And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:3-16

 

[Free]

Agreed, but without "immersion into Christ", that will not occur.

Then you don't agree.

Neither will the old man be destroyed, nor the repentant's resurrection with Christ to walk in newness of life .

That is not what the Bible teaches.

 

[Free]

What was the Plan of Salvation that Paul Preached?

That we are justified by God's grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.

Do you know that the Bible speaks of salvation using three different terms--justification, sanctification, and glorification--to represent a past event, an ongoing reality, and a future fulfillment?

 

[Hopeful 2]

The Scripture you quoted was written to the Roman Church, Right?

If you mean the church at Rome, yes...Paul's "letter to Romans" seems to make that clear.

The Roman Church had already repented of their sins, been Baptized in Jesus Name, and most had received the Baptism of the Holy Ghost. They had already obeyed Acts 2:38.

As we have no idea of another man's state, it is superfluous to guess where they stood.
Hopefully, some had been actually converted, but the message has traveled twenty centuries since then, so had much wider significance that "just Rome".
For instance, when I first read Romans...or any of the bible, I was an unbeliever; so unconverted.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Then you don't agree.

Good catch.
So..."Turning to Christ, putting one's faith in him, being justified by God's grace, and so be filled with the Spirit..."... does NOT wash away past sins.

That is not what the Bible teaches.

Didn't I supply the bible's verses that say it does ?
Post #79..."How can one have a "good conscience before God" with their past sins still clinging to them ?
And Peter wisely added the "by the resurrection of Christ" part to make sure we can associate forgiveness of sins to Romans 6's description of the rest of water baptism's results.
The repentant's immersion into Christ, (v3), destruction of the old man, (v6), and resurrection with Christ to walk in newness of life, (v6)."
1 Peter 3:21's "By the resurrection of Christ" is the key.
Hope that helps.

 

[Anchor Of Hope]

If you mean the church at Rome, yes...Paul's "letter to Romans" seems to make that clear.

As we have no idea of another man's state, it is superfluous to guess where they stood.
Hopefully, some had been actually converted, but the message has traveled twenty centuries since then, so had much wider significance that "just Rome".
For instance, when I first read Romans...or any of the bible, I was an unbeliever; so unconverted.

Romans were in Jerusalem on the Day of Pentecost, they heard Peter Preach the Foundational message to the Church. They obeyed his message, that’s why Apostle Paul addressed them as the Church at Rome.

Why is it so hard for you to understand all of the Epistles were written to the Churches that had already repented and been Baptized in the Name of Jesus Christ and were filled with the Holy Ghost speaking with other tongues.

 

[Anchor Of Hope]

If you mean the church at Rome, yes...Paul's "letter to Romans" seems to make that clear.

As we have no idea of another man's state, it is superfluous to guess where they stood.
Hopefully, some had been actually converted, but the message has traveled twenty centuries since then, so had much wider significance that "just Rome".
For instance, when I first read Romans...or any of the bible, I was an unbeliever; so unconverted.

Why is it so hard for you to understand all of the Epistles were written to the Churches that had already repented and been Baptized in the Name of Jesus Christ and were filled with the Holy Ghost speaking with other tongues.

 

[Anchor Of Hope]

Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”
Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
Nicodemus answered and said to Him, “How can these things be?”
Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things? Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness. If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven. And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:3-16

The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
Was it a coincidence that Acts 2:1-4 describes exactly this: Acts 2:1-4 (KJV)
1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. 3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

 

[Anchor Of Hope]

Good catch.
So..."Turning to Christ, putting one's faith in him, being justified by God's grace, and so be filled with the Spirit..."... does NOT wash away past sins.

Didn't I supply the bible's verses that say it does ?
Post #79..."How can one have a "good conscience before God" with their past sins still clinging to them ?
And Peter wisely added the "by the resurrection of Christ" part to make sure we can associate forgiveness of sins to Romans 6's description of the rest of water baptism's results.
The repentant's immersion into Christ, (v3), destruction of the old man, (v6), and resurrection with Christ to walk in newness of life, (v6)."
1 Peter 3:21's "By the resurrection of Christ" is the key.
Hope that helps.

Here is the Gospel of Christ
1. His Death
2. His Burial
3. His Resurrection
The Doctrine of the Gospel of Jesus Christ is this, and is the Spiritual Application of His Work of Salvation.
1. Repentance = Death to sins
2. Baptism in the Name of Jesus Christ = His Burial.
3. Baptism of the Holy Ghost = His Resurrection.
This is the Gospel of Jesus Christ and it’s Spiritual implementation in our life as New Born Children of God.

 

[Anchor Of Hope]

Here is the Gospel of Christ
1. His Death
2. His Burial
3. His Resurrection
The Doctrine of the Gospel of Jesus Christ is this, and is the Spiritual Application of His Work of Salvation.
1. Repentance = Dying to our sins
2. Baptism in the Name of Jesus Christ represents = His Burial. For we are buried with Him in Baptism
Romans 6:3-4.
3. Baptism of the Holy Ghost = His Resurrection. Is Christ in you Colossians 1:27
This is the Gospel of Jesus Christ and it’s Spiritual implementation in our life as New Born Children of God.

 

[Free]

Good catch.
So..."Turning to Christ, putting one's faith in him, being justified by God's grace, and so be filled with the Spirit..."... does NOT wash away past sins.

Do you think that "washing away sins" is different than forgiveness?

Didn't I supply the bible's verses that say it does ?

You might have provided a verse, but there are a lot of verses in the Bible. Simply providing a verse doesn't mean that one has understood it and that it says what they think it says.

Post #79..."How can one have a "good conscience before God" with their past sins still clinging to them ?
And Peter wisely added the "by the resurrection of Christ" part to make sure we can associate forgiveness of sins to Romans 6's description of the rest of water baptism's results.
The repentant's immersion into Christ, (v3), destruction of the old man, (v6), and resurrection with Christ to walk in newness of life, (v6)."
1 Peter 3:21's "By the resurrection of Christ" is the key.
Hope that helps.

Peter is not saying that water baptism itself is a means of salvation, of removing sins. As I stated previously, baptism does not remove "dirt from the body," that is, it doesn't cleanse. "Dirt" must be a metaphor for "sin," otherwise that phrase is meaningless sin physical cleanliness has nothing to do with salvation; pointing that would be pointless. That means baptism itself does not actually save (justify) and is not how we are declared righteous. So, Peter makes sure to clarify what he means by "baptism . . . now saves you" by stating that baptism doesn't cleanse.

Baptism is a public sign of an inward faith, of the work of renewal and washing by the Holy Spirit already completed, as indicated by it being "an appeal to God for a good conscience." And that in itself is based on the death and "resurrection of Jesus Christ," which is also a symbol of water baptism as Paul states.

Tit 3:5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, (ESV)

There is a fair bit packed into this one verse. First, no righteous works save us, none whatsoever, which would include baptism. Second, it is only by God's mercy that we are saved. Third, salvation is brought about "by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit."

 

[onlysaved]

How can you prove the thief never did anything but admit his sins ?
How can you determine how much time had elapsed between his last sins and his punishment ?
Time in which he could have heard, and believed all that Jesus had come to do ?

I disagree.
If he isn't a good man, he isn't following the Shepherd.

A person who puts their trust in Him is a good person.

There is no Christian without repentance from sin and rebirth from God's seed.

You seem to think that salvation will come from something different than what the apostles offered the churches.
That being, a turn from sin, and baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins, and thereby, the destruction of the old man, the gift of the holy Ghost, and rebirth from God's own seed.
Those reborn of God cannot bring forth evil fruit.

Judgement is up to God.
I can only offer to you what God offered to all of us.
Life in Him !

1. I do not need to prove the thief did or did not do those things. All we need to know about him is that He witnessed Jesus's crucifixion and Jesus's behavior lead him to faith and salvation
2. The interval between his last sin and his punishment is irrelevant. What we know is that the thief was saved on account of his faith in Christ.
3. Jesus came to seek and save the lost.. there is no evidence that the thief ever encountered Jesus until he was on the cross next to Him.

There is no such thing as a good man. Following Christ doesn't make you good doing good things makes you good and the Bible is clear we are evil. We become more like Christ through the process of sanctification but that does not make us good. ONLY Jesus was good. How perfectly do we have follow Christ to be good? What if you screw up? Are you not good anymore? How much sin is allowed before you lose the "good" label?

Rebirth is instantaneous upon faith in Christ and nothing else can be added to it. Yes, we are obedient to Christ when we are baptized but baptism is a symbol of dying to sin and spiritual rebirth.
Paul didn't think excessively of baptism even to the point of saying " I don't remember who I baptized in fact I didn't come to baptize but to preach the Gospel.
Baptism is absolutely NOT a condition of salvation, it is a step of obedience that indicates repentance and salvation has already taken place.

Why is it we confess our sins regularly? It's because as sanctification takes place we become aware of more and more sin in our lives. Paul called this "sin living in us" As we learn of sin in our lives we confess it and endeavor to irradiate it from our lives.
The first thing we must repent of? Our lack of faith in Jesus.

"Of a man claims to be without sin he is a liar and the truth is not in him"

Believers in Christ like it or not produce bad seeds. Half of what Paul wrote to the various churches were admonition to churches that were in the wrong and what they needed to do to stop bearing bad fruit.

Lastly we are not under the law but under the promise.. the promise given to Abraham that reached it's fulfillment in Jesus Christ. If we believe God we are credited with righteousness apart from any works.
The works are what we do in gratitude for our salvation

 

[onlysaved]

A paraphrase. " i find another law at work inside myself, for the bad I don't want to do i keep on doing but the good i want to do i do not do, who will save me?"

Christians continue to sin throughout their lives. Even the Apostle Paul.
We never become good people.. one sin disqualifies us forever. We are forgiven.. no pride, no judgment just thankfulness.

 

[Anchor Of Hope]

Do you think that "washing away sins" is different than forgiveness?


You might have provided a verse, but there are a lot of verses in the Bible. Simply providing a verse doesn't mean that one has understood it and that it says what they think it says.


Peter is not saying that water baptism itself is a means of salvation, of removing sins. As I stated previously, baptism does not remove "dirt from the body," that is, it doesn't cleanse. "Dirt" must be a metaphor for "sin," otherwise that phrase is meaningless sin physical cleanliness has nothing to do with salvation; pointing that would be pointless. That means baptism itself does not actually save (justify) and is not how we are declared righteous. So, Peter makes sure to clarify what he means by "baptism . . . now saves you" by stating that baptism doesn't cleanse.

Baptism is a public sign of an inward faith, of the work of renewal and washing by the Holy Spirit already completed, as indicated by it being "an appeal to God for a good conscience." And that in itself is based on the death and "resurrection of Jesus Christ," which is also a symbol of water baptism as Paul states.

Tit 3:5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, (ESV)

There is a fair bit packed into this one verse. First, no righteous works save us, none whatsoever, which would include baptism. Second, it is only by God's mercy that we are saved. Third, salvation is brought about "by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit."

Peter, Laid the Foundation the Church would be built on. It’s amazing the Sweet Lord Of Heaven and earth, would make the plan of Salvation so simple by putting it in ONE verse of Scripture in the whole Bible.

 

[Free]

Peter, Laid the Foundation the Church would be built on. It’s amazing the Sweet Lord Of Heaven and earth, would make the plan of Salvation so simple by putting it in ONE verse of Scripture in the whole Bible.

I don't know what you're referring to.