BEWARE OF LEAVEN, EAT UNLEAVENED BREAD AND LIVE

[Hopeful 2]

Ted,


That's cute, but you failed to answer a question.

Did Jesus teach his apostles and Jews to follow the Mosaic law before he died on the cross?

Yes, Jesus taught them of the OT to follow the Law.
But we of the NT are dead to the Law !
I am not going back to the imperfect when I have the perfect, courtesy of Jesus Christ.

 

[Humblepie]

If you are going to adhere to one part of the Law, you must adhere to all of it.
Where do you find lambs for sale ?

So you urge others to sin?
If I sacrificed it would be a sin, there is no alter or temple on which to sacrifice on. To do so without, it would be a sin.

 

[Humblepie]

Yes, Jesus taught them of the OT to follow the Law.
But we of the NT are dead to the Law !
I am not going back to the imperfect when I have the perfect, courtesy of Jesus Christ.

What was the LAST thing Jesus commanded his apostles right before he left earth.
Keep in mind it's the very last time he can teach them face to face, and it's probably very important that they understand their mission.



18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

19 Go ye therefore, and teach


all nations, (GENTILES)



baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:




20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you:

(Including the Mosaic Law)




(ALL THINGS)






and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.


Just to be clear, it's also what Paul taught.
Paul never taught against the law, if he did the Bible is a lie because he defended himself against these same accusations twice. But you still claim the opposite.


Acts 21

You see, brother, how many thousands of Jews have believed, and all of them are zealous for the law. 21 They have been informed that you teach all the Jews who live among the Gentiles to turn away from Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or live according to our customs. 22 What shall we do? They will certainly hear that you have come, 23 so do what we tell you. There are four men with us who have made a vow. 24 Take these men, join in their purification rites and pay their expenses, so that they can have their heads shaved. Then everyone will know there is no truth in these reports about you, but that you yourself are living in obedience to the law. 25 As for the Gentile believers, we have written to them our decision that they should abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality.”


The LAW and GRACE are not opposing views. They are in perfect harmony.
One condemns you, one saves you.

The law points to the messiah.

Paul or I never said the law saves you, only grace through faith saves you.
Obedience to God's will is the only reason one would want to follow his perfect law.

 

[Hopeful 2]

So you urge others to sin?
If I sacrificed it would be a sin, there is no alter or temple on which to sacrifice on. To do so without, it would be a sin.

Not at all, as I preach a life without sin.
Living the Law of Christ precludes life according to Moses.
Just as circumcision, feast keeping, and temple service are no longer necessary for salvation, neither are the other precepts Moses established.
I live in the New Testament.
So too can you.

 

[miamited]

Just as circumcision, feast keeping, and temple service are no longer necessary for salvation, neither are the other precepts Moses established.

Hi Hopeful 2

The old covenant never promised eternal salvation. The old covenant merely promised peace and prosperity in the lives of God's people as they lived their lives upon the earth. All of the covenant and what was bound by them is found in the law in which it was written. There never was ever any eternal salvation until the perfect price was paid. That's why Jesus went to the grave to preach to those who were held captive there.

As God told the Patriarchs as they died, that they would be gathered to their forefathers. They waited, expectantly, for the Messiah to come and free them, just as much as we have.

God bless,
Ted

 

[Hopeful 2]

What was the LAST thing Jesus commanded his apostles right before he left earth.
Keep in mind it's the very last time he can teach them face to face, and it's probably very important that they understand their mission.
18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, (GENTILES) baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you:
(Including the Mosaic Law)

Jesus taught them, and us, that carrying things on the Sabbath was OK.
That healing on the Sabbath was OK.
That picking and cleaning grain on a Sabbath was OK.
He taught that the rulers of the people were corrupted.
He taught that it was OK to talk to and even heal Gentiles.
He taught that worship didn't need a temple.
He taught that we can live without sin on earth.
He also taught that what we eat can't corrupt us.

Why don't you listen to Jesus ?

Paul or I never said the law saves you, only grace through faith saves you.
Obedience to God's will is the only reason one would want to follow his perfect law.

God's will changed.
Where He once demanded adherence to written Laws that man could not keep, He now demands that we love Him with all our hearts, minds, and souls; and that we love our neighbors as we love ourselves.
If you want to follow the unkeepable, go right ahead.
But don't try convincing me that I am a sinner because I eat leaven, or bats.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Hi Hopeful 2

The old covenant never promised eternal salvation. The old covenant merely promised peace and prosperity in the lives of God's people as they lived their lives upon the earth. All of the covenant and what was bound by them is found in the law in which it was written. There never was ever any eternal salvation until the perfect price was paid.

Life, then nothing ?
I think of the times Jesus mentioned the assumed deaths of Abraham. Isaac, and Jacob.
And His Testimony that God is the God of the living.

That's why Jesus went to the grave to preach to those who were held captive there.

That is another topic. (and an errant one at that)

As God told the Patriarchs as they died, that they would be gathered to their forefathers. They waited, expectantly, for the Messiah to come and free them, just as much as we have.

The forefathers were alive in heaven, with God.
It is written..."I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living." (Matt 22:32)

 

[miamited]

Hi Hopeful 2

Yes, God is the God of the living. However, you can read the law. It's been translated into English. There was no promise of eternal salvation under the old law. We find repeated dozens of times in the new covenant that there is eternal life. Yet not once in the old covenant is that written. Read the law. God gave a fairly exhaustive list of the consequences for keeping the law and His commandments and for not keeping the law.

It's rather my understanding that the many souls seen walking about resurrected from the dead when the veil was torn asunder may well have been the old covenant saints that heard Jesus preach in Hades. It may be well to understand that when Jesus mentioned the patriarchs, it was a question. What he is saying is that those guys are dead, for now. He doesn't seem to be making the claim that Abraham and Isaac and Jacob were alive at that moment. That passage is even followed by Jesus speaking about the resurrection of the DEAD.

But concerning the resurrection of the dead,...

God was the God of Abraham, when he was alive. God was the God of Isaac, when he was alive. God was the God of Jacob, when he was alive.

Go ahead, find me the place in the old covenant where God states or implies in any way that by keeping His old covenant law, one would gain eternal life.

God bless,
Ted

 

[Humblepie]

He also taught that what we eat can't corrupt us.

Hopeful 2.
With due respect,

Can you give me the scripture that quotes Jesus telling us we can eat anything

 

[Hopeful 2]

Hi Hopeful 2

Yes, God is the God of the living. However, you can read the law. It's been translated into English. There was no promise of eternal salvation under the old law.

You have made two points.
God is the God of the living, and eternal salvation isn't mentioned in the OT.
The first would preclude life after death...if taken literally.
I don't.
To the second point...it is written..."For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones." (Isa 57:15)
"...with him that..."
Looks like an eternal promise to me.

We find repeated dozens of times in the new covenant that there is eternal life. Yet not once in the old covenant is that written. Read the law. God gave a fairly exhaustive list of the consequences for keeping the law and His commandments and for not keeping the law.

I have provided one mention of it.
There may be more.

It's rather my understanding that the many souls seen walking about resurrected from the dead when the veil was torn asunder may well have been the old covenant saints that heard Jesus preach in Hades.

Jesus didn't preach in Hades.
The Spirit within Him preached through His OT prophets to those of yore.

It may be well to understand that when Jesus mentioned the patriarchs, it was a question. What he is saying is that those guys are dead, for now. He doesn't seem to be making the claim that Abraham and Isaac and Jacob were alive at that moment. That passage is even followed by Jesus speaking about the resurrection of the DEAD.

I disagree.

But concerning the resurrection of the dead,...

Not everybody's vessel was dead yet. the God of Abraham, when he was alive. God was the God of Isaac, when he was alive. God was the God of Jacob, when he was
Go ahead, find me the place in the old covenant where God states or implies in any way that by keeping His old covenant law, one would gain eternal Ted

 

[Hopeful 2]

Hopeful 2.
With due respect,

Can you give me the scripture that quotes Jesus telling us we can eat anything

Sure...Mark 7:18-19..."And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, it cannot defile him;
19 Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats?"
Matt 15 says the same thing.
Paul says..."For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:
5 For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer." (1 Tim 4:4-5)

But as I mentioned earlier, if eating leaven is a sin to you, don't eat leaven.
You will eventually learn that nothing is unclean any more, if you keep praying and studying and walking without sin.

 

[Humblepie]

Matt 15 says the same thing.

In context it doesn't say what you claim it says.

Matthew 15
15 Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying,

2 Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.

3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?

Sure...Mark 7:

Same thing taken out of context.

Mark 7
7 Then came together unto him the Pharisees, and certain of the scribes, which came from Jerusalem.

2 And when they saw some of his disciples eat bread with defiled, that is to say, with unwashen, hands, they found fault.

3 For the Pharisees, and all the Jews, except they wash their hands oft, eat not, holding the tradition of the elders.

Jesus is clearly rebuking the traditions of MEN.
Not the law of Moses.

This is about eating with unwashed hands, not eating pork. Respecfully Your interpretation is not even in the same ballpark and is false.

Anyone can pluck a verse from the Bible and build a whole theology out of it.

Any other verses you claim JESUS said you can eat pork?

 

[Hopeful 2]

In context it doesn't say what you claim it says.

Matthew 15
15 Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying,

2 Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.

3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?




Same thing taken out of context.

Mark 7
7 Then came together unto him the Pharisees, and certain of the scribes, which came from Jerusalem.

2 And when they saw some of his disciples eat bread with defiled, that is to say, with unwashen, hands, they found fault.

3 For the Pharisees, and all the Jews, except they wash their hands oft, eat not, holding the tradition of the elders.

Jesus is clearly rebuking the traditions of MEN.
Not the law of Moses.

This is about eating with unwashed hands, not eating pork. Respecfully Your interpretation is not even in the same ballpark and is false.

Anyone can pluck a verse from the Bible and build a whole theology out of it.

Any other verses you claim JESUS said you can eat pork?

I am glad I live in the covenant that superseded what you are trying to lure me back into.
Do you still refuse to enter into an unbelievers house ?

 

[Humblepie]

5 For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer." (1 Tim 4:4-5)

Let's dig a little deeper into this scripture, there is alot to unpack here. First what is truth as defined in the Word of God.

Psalm 119:142
Your righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, And Your law is truth.
That is a definitive statement....


1 Timothy 4 verse 3 clearly says: …and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.
Here is the Greek word for sanctified… hagiazō (ἁγιάζω) According to the Newman Greek Dictionary it means: set apart to or by God, sacred, consecrated.
Consider this, animals that are set apart for eating must be separate from animals that are not set apart for eating. This is by the very definition of the word sanctified. The very fact that there are animals sanctified means that there has to be a separate group of animals that are not sanctified. Doesn't this make sense?
The animals that are sanctified or set apart for food from animals that are not set apart for food are defined very clearly in Leviticus 11. If we believe and know the Truth that means we believe and know the law of God. The very fact that some animals are declared to be “consecrated", or “sanctified” or “made holy” or set apart by the Word of God means that some animals are obviously NOT "set apart" by the Word of God. Something can only be "set apart" if there is something to be "set apart" from.
2 Timothy 3:16
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness
When Paul wrote this letter the old Testament was the only scripture written and that makes Leviticus 11 profitable for doctrine.

My question to you is this. Does Leviticus come from Seducing spirits? Is it the doctrine of devils? Is it profane?
Is it old wives fables?

I think not.


1 Timothy 4

4 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. (Law)

4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:

5 For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

2 Timothy 4:2-4

Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables.

1 Timothy 4:6-7

6 If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained.

7 But refuse profane and old wives' fables, and exercise thyself rather unto godliness.

 

[Humblepie]

I am glad I live in the covenant that superseded what you are trying to lure me back into.
Do you still refuse to enter into an unbelievers house ?

That is a doctrine of men..not the law of moses, and the apostles and Jesus adamantly taught against it.

Matt 15:7-9

7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,

8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.

9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men



Acts 10 clearly states that we are to call no MAN unclean

Acts 10:28

28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.

Where in his New Covenant does he eliminate the Torah?

Jeremiah 31:33
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

He said he would put it on our hearts, not eliminate it. He gives us the Holy Spirit and a new will to follow his commands.
He gives us the will to also follow the spirit of the law not just the letter.

To be perfectly clear...as a believer we follow the law because we are saved, not to save us.

We are saved by grace through faith.

 

[miamited]

Hi Hopeful 2

Looks like an eternal promise to me.

Oh, you'll get no argument from me that all of God's promises are eternal. What I said was that there was no promise of eternal life under the old covenant.

I disagree.

Try reading it as it is translated. With a question mark at the end and not a period.

God bless,
Ted

 

[Humblepie]

Oh, you'll get no argument from me that all of God's promises are eternal. What I said was that there was no promise of eternal life under the old covenant.

The law didn't offer salvation, but God proclaimed a savior many times in the O.T. and never once stated that the law would be rendered void or useless, how could he, he said his law is for all generations.

He did however promise a savior would come to deliver us from the beginning.

Many O.T. scriptures back this up.

He will reign in perfect peace, justice, and righteousness as King over the entire earth (Gen 49:10; Num 24:17-19; Ps 2:6-12; 110:1-7; Is 9:6b-7; 11:1-16; 42:1-4; Jer 23:5; 33:14-2; Zech 9:10).
He will build the Temple of the Lord and rule on His throne as Priest (Zech 6:12-15).
He will unify and restore the nation of Israel (Ezek 36:16-38; 37:15-28).
He will feed and protect Israel as her divine Shepherd (Ezek 34:23-31; 37:15-28).
He will bring salvation to Israel and reign over her as King (Is 49:5-6a; Micah 5:2; Jer 23:5-6; 30:21; 33:16; Ezek 37:15-28).
He will be appointed as a covenant to the people and a light to the nations of the earth (Is 42:5-6; 49:6; cf. Is 55:4; cf. Mal 3:1).

God never broke his covenant and never will, he cant...man did though.

 

[miamited]

Hi Humblepie

The law didn't offer salvation, but God proclaimed a savior many times in the O.T.

Absolutely!! But the point being made here is that no one was able to be resurrected or saved from sin until the perfect sacrifice was made. So, all of those people coming up in the old covenant days were promised, for keeping God's commands, peace, comfort and security in this life. That's what I said in the beginning of this discussion and I do stand by it.

When Jesus was laid in the tomb, the Scriptures tell us that he then went down to hades and proclaimed the eternal salvation now available to them through faith in him. Then we are told that many dead people were seen walking about. That had to be a strange night. But I'm confident that it wasn't until that moment that anyone living in the days of the old covenant received any promise of eternal salvation.

Please notice that all of your quotes are written as a future event... 'will'. And that is my point.

God bless,
Ted

 

[Humblepie]

If God's intentions were to eliminate the law and replace it as you say, he would have foretold it to the prophets so isreal would have known his plan from the beginning.
Replacement of the Torah is not a minor detail, it's what Israel was commanded to follow until heaven and earth pass away. If you can't quote old testament scripture which is the only scripture the Apostles had, (and they converted multitudes that were zealous for the law to christ,) that foretold this, then it never happened.
So when did he state he "WILL" replace his law.
Amos 3:7
7 Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.

 

[miamited]

Hi Humblepie

If God's intentions were to eliminate the law and replace it as you say, he would have foretold it to the prophets so isreal would have known his plan from the beginning.

Have you not read that God spoke through His faithful prophet Jeremiah:
"Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah--not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord.
God has said that He is going to make a new covenant. That the new covenant will not be like the old one that He made with them when He brought them out of Egypt by His own hand. Jesus is that new covenant. And that covenant will not only be for house of Israel, but for all peoples on the earth.
The covenant that you're trying to enforce is the old covenant that God gave unto Israel when He brought them by His own hand out of Egypt. When God gave those words to Jeremiah, the old covenant had been in force for a few centuries. God is not referring to that covenant. He is referring to the new covenant that Jesus spoke of when he sat with his disciples and told them, "This is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many."

That new covenant is the one that God has made with the Gentile nations and Israel that anyone who will, may be saved.

God bless,
Ted