Bible Verses Ignored, by Rapture theory

[Terral]

Much Smaller Posts Appears Like The Way To Move Forward

Hi Coop:

Thank you for writing. I think you are demonstrating well the importance of writing much smaller posts on one point at a time. Maybe we can make some progress in these deliberations by following your lead.

Coop >> Perhaps it is not the 7 year time frame that he is disagreeing with, but the title you have applied to this 7 years.

Please remember that my interpretation places our ‘Rapture’ (1 Thessalonians 4:17) to 1000 years BEFORE anything in Matthew 24 takes place. Daniel sees how this 1000 Years “Day of the Lord†ENDS (end of the age = Daniel 12:11-13), but Paul is describing how the same period BEGINS (2 Thessalonians 2:2). Scripture never calls the Word of God “the Bible†either, but we know what that means like the “Rapture,†which is also not in the Bible. This ‘seven year’ number is attached to our understanding of the “one week†(Daniel 9:27) of the ‘firm covenant’ that the antichrist himself breaks in the ‘middle of the week’ where he enters the holy place (Matthew 24:15) to set up his abomination of desolation (Daniel 11:31, Daniel 12:11). If you cannot draw the connection between this ‘one week’ and ‘seven years,’ then that is A-Okay by me. However, please understand that many people use this “seven years of tribulation†phrase to describe activities surrounding these events prophesied by Daniel that Christ refers to in Matthew 24:15. No, the ‘Great Tribulation’ does not begin prior to Matthew 24:21, but the antichrist does not break the covenant until the “middle of the week.†Christ speaks of kingdom disciples being delivered to ‘tribulation’ all the way back in Matthew 24:9 and lawlessness increasing through to verse 12. That should tell you that the antichrist is destroying many through the peace of his first three and a half years, before he sets up his ‘abomination of desolation’ in the middle of the week (Matthew 24:15).

Coop >> Where is this 7 year period called "the tribulation" in the bible? I think a better term would be the "70th week."

Since we are all taking about ‘one week,’ even in saying a ‘seventieth week,’ then let’s just agree that this is Scripture’s reference to a seven year “week†and move on . . . Since both Daniel and Christ are talking about the ‘end of the age,’ and Paul is describing the ‘day of the Lord’ COMING some 1000 Years earlier (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17), then this point about what to call the tribulation period really does not mean very much. I am more interested in knowing where you place the ‘times and epochs’ (1 Thessalonians 5:1-2) and the restoration of the kingdom to Israel (Acts 1:6-7) into that mix. How much time exists between the antichrist entering the holy place (Matthew 24:15) and the restoration of that Temple (Matthew 17:10-11, Acts 3:21) in the first place?? That will tell us the length of time between ‘our’ Rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:17) and these ‘end of the age’ events.

Thank you again for writing,

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

 

[lecoop]

Re: Much Smaller Posts Appears Like The Way To Move Forward

Hi Coop:

Thank you for writing. I think you are demonstrating well the importance of writing much smaller posts on one point at a time. Maybe we can make some progress in these deliberations by following your lead.

Coop >> Perhaps it is not the 7 year time frame that he is disagreeing with, but the title you have applied to this 7 years.

Please remember that my interpretation places our ‘Rapture’ (1 Thessalonians 4:17) to 1000 years BEFORE anything in Matthew 24 takes place. Daniel sees how this 1000 Years “Day of the Lord†ENDS (end of the age = Daniel 12:11-13), but Paul is describing how the same period BEGINS (2 Thessalonians 2:2). Scripture never calls the Word of God “the Bible†either, but we know what that means like the “Rapture,†which is also not in the Bible. This ‘seven year’ number is attached to our understanding of the “one week†(Daniel 9:27) of the ‘firm covenant’ that the antichrist himself breaks in the ‘middle of the week’ where he enters the holy place (Matthew 24:15) to set up his abomination of desolation (Daniel 11:31, Daniel 12:11). If you cannot draw the connection between this ‘one week’ and ‘seven years,’ then that is A-Okay by me. However, please understand that many people use this “seven years of tribulation†phrase to describe activities surrounding these events prophesied by Daniel that Christ refers to in Matthew 24:15. No, the ‘Great Tribulation’ does not begin prior to Matthew 24:21, but the antichrist does not break the covenant until the “middle of the week.†Christ speaks of kingdom disciples being delivered to ‘tribulation’ all the way back in Matthew 24:9 and lawlessness increasing through to verse 12. That should tell you that the antichrist is destroying many through the peace of his first three and a half years, before he sets up his ‘abomination of desolation’ in the middle of the week (Matthew 24:15).

Of course there is "one week" of 7 years. There is much proof of this. however, in Matt. 24, mark 13, and Luke 21, Jesus does not even mention the first 3 1/2 years of this week. He goes from "the end is not yet," and such phrases, to "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation..." In other words, Jesus is talking about the 2000 years of what we call church history, and suddenly, He is at the midpoint of the week! What happened to the first half of the week? Jesus did not even mention it. I know, many people think that verses 4-14 are in the first half of the week. I disagree. These same people would say that the seals are also in the first half of the week, and again I would disagree. They are just not reading Revelation chapter five close enough. It is my guess that many people will miss the signing or confirming of this 7 year peace treaty. It may not make world news. It may be kept secret. The one thing that could not escape notice would be the construction of the temple. There can be no doubt that there will be a temple, for John is told to measure it!

[quote:ccb53]Coop >> Where is this 7 year period called "the tribulation" in the bible? I think a better term would be the "70th week."

Since we are all taking about ‘one week,’ even in saying a ‘seventieth week,’ then let’s just agree that this is Scripture’s reference to a seven year “week†and move on . . . Since both Daniel and Christ are talking about the ‘end of the age,’

We are in agreement here on these events being "the end of the age."

and Paul is describing the ‘day of the Lord’ COMING some 1000 Years earlier (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17),

This is your imagination running wild. The very first mention of the thousand years in when Satan is bound. The millennium starts here in Rev. 20. Anything before this time: i.e. Revelation 1 -20, is part of the church age, or the age of grace. It is the time that Israel is blinded so that the fulness of the Gentiles can come in. You better read your Thes. Scriptures again - without preconceived glasses on.

then this point about what to call the tribulation period really does not mean very much. I am more interested in knowing where you place the ‘times and epochs’

As I have said over and over, there is no such period of time called "times and seasons." Again, you are reading this with preconceived glasses. Any time is a "time," and any time is a "season." The point is, can you read the times and seasons?


(1 Thessalonians 5:1-2) and the restoration of the kingdom to Israel (Acts 1:6-7) into that mix.

The restoration of Israel will be immediately after the judgement of the nations, which will be the start of the Millennium. Sorry, but they are not restored before this. Yes, a small group will start their daily sacrifices again, soon after the 7 year covenant is signed, but only a remnant will survive the time of great tribulation. It is when they see the nail prints in his hands, and repent, that God can restore them. I cannot call them restored just because they are having sacrifices. God left the old temple way back in the time of Ezekiel, and has never came back. Neither will His presense be in this 70th week temple.

How much time exists between the antichrist entering the holy place (Matthew 24:15) and the restoration of that Temple (Matthew 17:10-11, Acts 3:21) in the first place??


You are still hung up and confused about Elijah coming. Again - preconceived glasses! When are you going to believe Jesus words: "That Elias is come already, and they knew him not..." You are confused here because you are confused about "the restoration of all things."

The temple will be restored quickly during the beginning of the week (probably because the beast will give the permission) or else it will be built before the week even starts. Elijah will NOT be there. The daily sacrifices must be started before the midpoint.


That will tell us the length of time between ‘our’ Rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:17) and these ‘end of the age’ events.

How can you put the rapture and the midpoint events into any kind of "length of time?" They are not associated.
Coop


Thank you again for writing,

In Christ Jesus,

Terral[/quote:ccb53]...

 

[John the Baptist]

---------The 1000 years will start & END for some!---------- :o

It will start when Christ comes for the living righteous & the resurrected dead [Christians] who will all meet Him in the air, And Christ's God Glory + the angels Glory, will kill the rest of the worlds wicked, so that [all] wicked are now D-E-A-D. satan and the evil angels will now again be here on depopulated earth as it was before God created it! The now again 'desolate & void bottom/less pit earth', finds his angel followers and himself in a literal 'bound' chain set of circumstances! They are alone with the wicked all being dead. These who will have their resurrection at the ending of the 1000 years.

This 2nd resurrection is at the 1000 years ending! satan will have 1000 years to think over what his evil rebellion has caused! Yet, at the end of the 1000 years, and at this time, the wicked will all be resurrected, ALL OF ETERNITY will see that ALL have come to the point of full eternal uselessness (rebellion) for they come out of the grave the same rebellious way that they went into it! & God will at this time put them out of their misery! This is the penalty stage of their execution, they will suffer according to their deeds! See Ecclesiastes 12:13-14.

These are to ALL be executed in this Second death slaughter, when the New Jerusalem descends at the end of these 1000 years. Their Judgement as to the 'length of suffering' will have been determined during the 1000 years of judgement by the heavenly accurate record books. See Luke 12:47-48. They will ALL be executed at this time. ALONG with Lucifer and his crew of angels, & all of his human evil Desiree's. (compare Gen. 4:7) The earth and the heavens will be cleansed by fire at this time, and then recreated before New Jerusalem sets down. See Ezekiel. 28:18-19 & Obadiah . 16

Ecclesiastes 12:13-14!
"Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. v. 13.
For God shall bring every work into judgement, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil." v. 14

'let us hear the conclusion'. That is the bottom line of what mature faith is composed of, one way or the other!
This 'faith', is just that, FAITH only! The conclusion will tell if it is SAVING FAITH? It is not as yet a done deal!!

This FAITH KEEPS THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD! (or it does not!) This is the 'WHOLE DUTY'! Interesting! Faith??? It is not a done deal yet! [ONLY THROUGH & BY FAITH.] How will your FAITH be judged in the .. 'accurate recorded record books' ... is the ... 'conclusion ... 'whole duty' .. of man! No Jew seen here either, for some of you other 'birds'! No nation of Israel either! These Hebrews. 11:13 ones, are seen as.. 'ALL DIED [IN] THE FAITH', included here were, from the first of Mankind on!! Even the ignorant ones of Rom. 2:14-15 who never even heard of the Master as we had are included! All of these that are included in Christ's creation of earth...MANKIND!!

The conclusion: Gods Commandments. His 'GOD' ETERNAL COVENANT! This does not say the Son's alone!

At the ending of the 1000 years, all of these D-E-A-D lost ones are to be judged by 'BOOKS' only, the James 2:8-12 Royal Covenant Law of God's ten Commandments. (see verse 12) When Christ came, He brought His REWARD with Him. Saved or Lost! It was pre/decided as in 1 Peter 4:17, as is quoted in Dan. 12:1-2, as now being a done deal at this time, for these only! (closed door of all probation) The whole duty of man was now OVER! Saved or lost!

But the wicked are still all recorded in the record books! The 1000 years will find their judgement.. "For God shall bring every [work] into judgement, [with every secret thing,] wether it be good or whether it be evil." The only question asked when Christ stands up as our High Priest before the heavenly Ark of the Godhead, is, have they been obedient our Covenant, the ten Commandments? It was He that stated, "IF YE LOVE ME, KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS".

It is these ones who will take part in the executional 'punishment' part of all the wicked, including satan and the wicked angels.
"Do ye not know that [the saints shall judge the world?] ... [Know ye not that *WE shall judge angels?] how much [more things that pertain to this life?]. 1 Cor. 6:2-3 in part & with my highlights for the emphasis of waking up some who still might be awakened if possible!? Is it?? See Luke 16:31 for Christ's Words!

See Jude 12. It is still recorded there in the heavenly RECORD BOOKS ACCURATELY, AND WILL FIND THEIR END IN THE LAKE OF FIRE!

Does one understand that the choice was Cain's to make as seen in Gen. 4:7?? All one needs to do is submit %100 to the Holy Spirits Leading Rom. 8:14 to escape the lake of fire. It is beyond me why any person would fight against the 7th Day Sabbath Commandment as seen in all of these 'winds' of doctrine put forth, simply because they hate to be a 7th Day Sabbath keeper? But, as it started out, so will it end! A Free choice of a professed 'FAITHS FINISHED ENDING' in a non/acceptable 'fruit' offering, of a sun day of worship, instead of a Commanded COMMANDMENT FROM GOD. "FEAR GOD AND KEEP [HIS COMMANDMENTS] FOR [THIS THE WHOLE DUTY OF MAN]" :fadein: (mankind!!)

---John

 

[Terral]

We Are Living In the Mystery Time Of Scripture

Hi Coop:

Thank you for writing, even if your methods are unclear and your posts are hard to interpret. This color coded way of answering posts does not place names in front of words. This side places your name in front of every line to remove all doubt, while assisting the readers in seeing the differences. You might try using similar methods . . .

Terral Original >> What errors are you talking about? Please point out just one and explain what makes that wrong using Scripture. Paul says the ‘times and epochs’ are connected directly to the “day of the Lord†(1 Thessalonians 5:1-2). Christ says the ‘times and epochs’ period is when the kingdom is restored to Israel (Acts 1:6-7). Are you saying that either of these passages exists in Terral’s imagination?

Coop >> Do I need to point out to you the times and seasons that we live in?

That would be very difficult to do, since none of the Old Testament Prophets were given to see this mystery time we live in today. Isaiah (Isaiah 40:3) and Malachi (Malachi 3:1) saw John the Baptist and Christ. Hosea (Hosea 2:19-20) saw the Lord coming to betroth the ‘bride’ (John 3:29) to Himself as the ‘Bridegroom.’ However, how many of the OT Prophets saw Paul, our mystery church (Ephesians 5:32, Colossians 1:24) our mystery gospel (Romans 16:25) or our mystery (1 Corinthians 15:51-53) translation to the Lord (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17)? NONE OF THEM. The ‘times and epochs’ is what Paul had NO NEED to write anything about to the Thessalonians (1 Thessalonians 5:1-2), because THAT has everything to do with the restoration of the kingdom to ISRAEL (Acts 1:6-7). The times and epochs period will not even begin, until we are Raptured out of here and that Day of the Lord COMES (2 Thessalonians 2:2). The underlying premise of your statement here is DEAD WRONG and anything you say after this point is based upon that false presumption, whether you realize it or not . . .

Coop >> Did you notice that Israel became a nation once again, (1948) fulfilling many OT prophecies?

Please . . . So you begin by asking a rhetorical question to prop up your straw man, and now you will try to give him your own breath of life. Heh . . . Good luck . . . NONE of the “times and epochs†prophecies have been fulfilled since 70 AD and the START of the “Day of the Lord†is still in OUR FUTURE. God has brought Israel of the flesh back to the edge of the Promised Land (Genesis 15:18), so they can wait for Elijah (Malachi 4:5-6) coming to Restore all things (Matthew 17:10-11). We are still living between Paul’s conversion and the Rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:17) of our mystery church (Ephesians 5:32) that Israel is blinded from even seeing (Romans 11:25). Do you see the ‘tabernacle of David’ (Acts 15:16) restored in the Middle East, which James prophesies and says will take place “After These Things†(Acts 15:16) of today (Acts 15:14)? No. In fact, you will have to speculate on exactly what that phrase really means . . . The ‘tabernacle of David’ is NOT the Temple, as that was standing when James made this prophecy in Acts 15:16-18 in about 50 AD and two decades before Jerusalem was leveled.

Coop >> Did you happen to notice that the people groups living in the same lands as ancient Babylon, Medo-Persia, Assyria, etc. (think the rise of the beast) all hate Israel, and want her destroyed? What am I speaking about? I am speaking about "times and seasons."

No sir. You are using the phrase in a sentence in complete ignorance of what ‘times and epochs’ (Acts 1:6-7, 1 Thessalonians 5:1-2) even means . . . If you knew what you were talking about, then you would also know that Paul predicts the START of this ‘times and epochs’ period, when the “Day of the Lord†is AT HAND (2 Thessalonians 2:2) or COMES. Our ‘gathering’ to the Lord is directly connected to that times and epochs restoration period BEGINNING, which automatically tells you that ‘times and epochs’ period has YET TO EVEN BEGIN. Esau has hated Israel from the very start and your generalities about their relationship today are meaningless . . .

Coop >> You see, you blow this simple phrase all out of proportion to what it is meant to mean. Of course "times and seasons" are related to the day of the Lord. Jesus gave signs to look for, such as the moon turning blood red.

NO! Man-0-man . . . This side of the discussion truly believes that you guys are blind as bats on this topic. First, you pretend to understand what this ‘times and epochs’ (Acts 1:6-7) period is all about, then you run right pass all of that restoration to events that take place AFTER all of that is over. Has Israel taken possession of the Promised Land all the way to the Euphrates River (Genesis 15:18)? No! The restoration of the kingdom to Israel is what the ‘times and epochs’ (Acts 1:6-7) Period is ALL ABOUT. That is when Ezekiel’s Temple (Ezekiel 40 +) is rebuilt and the Promised Land is divided up among the Twelve Tribes (Ezekiel 47 + Ezekiel 48). Paul had no need to write about this ‘times and epochs’ (1 Thessalonians 5:1-2) restoration of the kingdom to Israel, because we are taken when that Period BEGINS (2 Thessalonians 2:2). You guys cannot distinguish between the START of that restoration of the kingdom to Israel and the END of the same 1000 Years “Day of the Lord.†You just combined the START of the ‘times and epochs’ with the very END OF THE AGE totally part from knowing the difference.

Coop >> When people see signs, such as Israel becoming a nation once again, they should know that it is a sign telling them the season that they are living in.

Please . . . you do not know the difference between Israel standing on the threshold of the Promised Land and actually taking possession of that all the way to the Euphrates River (Genesis 15:18). The “day of the Lord†(2 Peter 3:10) is as “a thousand Years†(2 Peter 3:8), which marks the START of the ‘times and epochs’ restoration of the Kingdom to Israel (Acts 1:6-7) and the END of the same 1000 Years that Christ describes in Matthew 24. Elijah is coming to restore “all things†(Matthew 17:10-11), which includes the Kingdom to Israel, The Temple and the ‘tabernacle of David’ (Acts 15:16), which encompasses the land from the river of Egypt all the way to the Euphrates (Genesis 15:18). That restored kingdom shall endure for the entire 1000 Years, until at the very end Satan and his cronies are released and make that kingdom and Temple into their own “Abomination of Desolation†(Daniel 12:11, Matthew 24:15). Your ‘Day of the Lord’ has NO DURATION and no amount of time sufficient for the restoration of ALL THINGS (Acts 3:21 = Matthew 17:10-11) by Elijah who MUST come first as the ‘prophet’ of Acts 3:21-26. He restores the ‘tabernacle of David’ AFTER THESE THINGS (Acts 15:16-18) of today.

Coop >> All the world should know that we are approaching the end of the age. However, most of the people in the world are marching steadily toward destruction, blindly. Why? Because they do not know the word of God.

Please . . . The ‘end of the age’ is at least 1000 Years away. We are still living in the mystery time that none of the OT Prophets were given to see. God has not even started restoring the kingdom to Israel through the ‘times and epochs’ (Acts 1:6-7) Period that STARTS when the “Day of the Lord†(1 Thessalonians 5:1-2) COMES (2 Thessalonians 2:2). You do not know the differences between the START of the ‘times and epochs' Period and that ENDING 1000 years later. The key is that Satan is chained to START the 1000 Years (Revelation 20:2 = back in Revelation 1) and he is released AFTER that restoration period is OVER (Revelation 20:7). Your side of this discussion has broken Scripture every which way to prop up an interpretation that is NOT anywhere in God’s Living Word. Does Scripture say that Satan is released to START a 1000 Years Period? No.

"When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore." Revelation 20:7-8.

Satan is released at the very 'end of the age' to participate in the same Battle described in Revelation 14, Revelation 16, Revelation 19 and here in Revelation 20. The "Great Tribulation" is already coming to an end way back in Revelation 7:14, which carries us directly to Matthew 24:21. That means Satan has already been in the pit for 1000 Years when these events of Matthew 24 even BEGIN. Where is the 1000 Years between the START of the "Day of the Lord" (2 Thessalonians 2:2) AND Satan being released here to participate in these "end of the age" events? Your interpretation HAS NO TIME OF DURATION and places Satan's chaining AFTER, all of these "Day of the Lord" events are already fulfilled. This simple argument will likely escape your notice, just like Peter says in 2 Peter 3:8.

Coop >> Therefore, I suggest that you just get this phrase out of your mind, and read the passages without preconceived imaginary glasses on.

LOL. This is just a ‘phrase’ that you wish to ignore, because the restoration of the Kingdom to Israel (Acts 2:6-7) has NO PLACE in your feeble interpretion. You START the restoration of the Kingdom to Israel with the smoke and signs of Matthew 24:29 that takes place 1000 Years LATER at the very END OF THE AGE. Then you pretend that others are to ignore this ‘phrase’ that refutes your own interpretation. Go ahead and admit that the ‘times and epochs’ Period STARTING (2 Thessalonians 2:2) is all about the restoration of the kingdom to Israel (Acts 1:6-7). Say that to yourself about twenty five times, then realize that your interpretation makes no time for all of that to be complete. That is why you wish everyone else would just ignore the facts in this case . . . That is truly funny indeed . . .

Coop >> All this phrase in meant to convey to the reader is that when you see signs - you know what season you are in.

You are trying to oversimplify the true meaning of what the ‘times and epochs’ restoration of ALL THINGS (Acts 3:21) and the kingdom to Israel (Acts 1:6-7) really means, while this side already knows a large amount of time is required. A thousand years exist between our Rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:17), which STARTS the ‘times and epochs’ Period AND the ‘end of the age’ that takes place 1000 years LATER. We are anticipating the 1000 Years “Day of the Lord†STARTING, but those living through that ‘times and epochs’ restoration period will anticipate the ‘end of the age’ that is still over 1000 Years in our future. If you cannot see the simplicity of this argument, then that is your problem. Oversimplify things if you like, but the truth is clearly written in Scripture for those willing to accept it.

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

 

[lecoop]

---------The 1000 years will start & END for some!---------- :o

It will start when Christ comes for the living righteous & the resurrected dead [Christians] who will all meet Him in the air, And Christ's God Glory + the angels Glory, will kill the rest of the worlds wicked, so that [all] wicked are now D-E-A-D. satan and the evil angels will now again be here on depopulated earth as it was before God created it! The now again 'desolate & void bottom/less pit earth', finds his angel followers and himself in a literal 'bound' chain set of circumstances! They are alone with the wicked all being dead. These who will have their resurrection at the ending of the 1000 years.

This 2nd resurrection is at the 1000 years ending! satan will have 1000 years to think over what his evil rebellion has caused! Yet, at the end of the 1000 years, and at this time, the wicked will all be resurrected, ALL OF ETERNITY will see that ALL have come to the point of full eternal uselessness (rebellion) for they come out of the grave the same rebellious way that they went into it! & God will at this time put them out of their misery! This is the penalty stage of their execution, they will suffer according to their deeds! See Ecclesiastes 12:13-14.

These are to ALL be executed in this Second death slaughter, when the New Jerusalem descends at the end of these 1000 years. Their Judgement as to the 'length of suffering' will have been determined during the 1000 years of judgement by the heavenly accurate record books. See Luke 12:47-48. They will ALL be executed at this time. ALONG with Lucifer and his crew of angels, & all of his human evil Desiree's. (compare Gen. 4:7) The earth and the heavens will be cleansed by fire at this time, and then recreated before New Jerusalem sets down. See Ezekiel. 28:18-19 & Obadiah . 16

Ecclesiastes 12:13-14!
"Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. v. 13.
For God shall bring every work into judgement, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil." v. 14

'let us hear the conclusion'. That is the bottom line of what mature faith is composed of, one way or the other!
This 'faith', is just that, FAITH only! The conclusion will tell if it is SAVING FAITH? It is not as yet a done deal!!

This FAITH KEEPS THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD! (or it does not!) This is the 'WHOLE DUTY'! Interesting! Faith??? It is not a done deal yet! [ONLY THROUGH & BY FAITH.] How will your FAITH be judged in the .. 'accurate recorded record books' ... is the ... 'conclusion ... 'whole duty' .. of man! No Jew seen here either, for some of you other 'birds'! No nation of Israel either! These Hebrews. 11:13 ones, are seen as.. 'ALL DIED [IN] THE FAITH', included here were, from the first of Mankind on!! Even the ignorant ones of Rom. 2:14-15 who never even heard of the Master as we had are included! All of these that are included in Christ's creation of earth...MANKIND!!

The conclusion: Gods Commandments. His 'GOD' ETERNAL COVENANT! This does not say the Son's alone!

At the ending of the 1000 years, all of these D-E-A-D lost ones are to be judged by 'BOOKS' only, the James 2:8-12 Royal Covenant Law of God's ten Commandments. (see verse 12) When Christ came, He brought His REWARD with Him. Saved or Lost! It was pre/decided as in 1 Peter 4:17, as is quoted in Dan. 12:1-2, as now being a done deal at this time, for these only! (closed door of all probation) The whole duty of man was now OVER! Saved or lost!

But the wicked are still all recorded in the record books! The 1000 years will find their judgement.. "For God shall bring every [work] into judgement, [with every secret thing,] wether it be good or whether it be evil." The only question asked when Christ stands up as our High Priest before the heavenly Ark of the Godhead, is, have they been obedient our Covenant, the ten Commandments? It was He that stated, "IF YE LOVE ME, KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS".

It is these ones who will take part in the executional 'punishment' part of all the wicked, including satan and the wicked angels.
"Do ye not know that [the saints shall judge the world?] ... [Know ye not that *WE shall judge angels?] how much [more things that pertain to this life?]. 1 Cor. 6:2-3 in part & with my highlights for the emphasis of waking up some who still might be awakened if possible!? Is it?? See Luke 16:31 for Christ's Words!

See Jude 12. It is still recorded there in the heavenly RECORD BOOKS ACCURATELY, AND WILL FIND THEIR END IN THE LAKE OF FIRE!

Does one understand that the choice was Cain's to make as seen in Gen. 4:7?? All one needs to do is submit %100 to the Holy Spirits Leading Rom. 8:14 to escape the lake of fire. It is beyond me why any person would fight against the 7th Day Sabbath Commandment as seen in all of these 'winds' of doctrine put forth, simply because they hate to be a 7th Day Sabbath keeper? But, as it started out, so will it end! A Free choice of a professed 'FAITHS FINISHED ENDING' in a non/acceptable 'fruit' offering, of a sun day of worship, instead of a Commanded COMMANDMENT FROM GOD. "FEAR GOD AND KEEP [HIS COMMANDMENTS] FOR [THIS THE WHOLE DUTY OF MAN]" :fadein: (mankind!!)

---John

This seems to be a thread where imaginations run wild. Can anyone read?

Romans 14
5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

Second point: we are Gentiles, not Jews. The Sabbath law was given to the Jews, not to us. Here is what the early church (and the HG) decided that Gentiles must follow from the law:

Acts 15
28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

Do we see anything about the 7th day here? No.

Where do you come up with such an idea about the 1000 years? Where are we during this 1000 years, in your mind?

Coop

 

[Terral]

The Day Of The Lord Is As A Thousand Years

Hi Coop:

Thank you for writing. Again, this color coding method of yours is difficult to follow and confusing.

Coop >> Of course there is "one week" of 7 years. There is much proof of this. however, in Matt. 24, mark 13, and Luke 21, Jesus does not even mention the first 3 1/2 years of this week.

Christ did not begin His Olivet Discourse in Matthew 24:15. Are we blind? This is about half way between the disciple’s question in Matthew 24:3 AND “Your Coming†in Matthew 24:30-31. Does Christ’s first mention of ‘tribulation’ come AFTER Matthew 24:15 or BEFORE that in Matthew 4:9? “Tribulation†has indeed been going on all the way back to Matthew 24:4-7 and the “Great†Tribulation starts only in the last half (Matthew 24:21) of that tribulation period. This simple point about the “Great Tribulation†(Revelation 7:14) is one that blows your interpretation right out of the water.

Can we agree that the “Great Tribulation†begins AFTER the “abomination of desolation†(Daniel 11:31, Daniel 12:11) is already set up in Matthew 24:15? Well? Can we? Of course, because Christ is giving us a chronological discourse and Matthew 24:21 (Great Tribulation) appears AFTER Matthew 24:15. That means the events of Revelation 7:14 where “These are the ones who come out of the Great Tribulation . . .†are taking place BETWEEN Matthew 24:21 AND Matthew 24:30-31 where Christ returns. This also tells you that the prophetic events of Revelation are NOT given in chronological order. Daniel just happens to give us the number of days from Matthew 24:15 AND ‘the end’ in Daniel 12:11-13 (1,290 days). The antichrist has already entered the Temple, which represents the “Beast†of Revelation 13 AND the ‘Dragon’ (Satan) is already out of the pit giving him power and authority (Revelation 13:1-4). That tells you Satan has already been in the pit for the 1000 Years and has already been released (Revelation 20:7), as this is indeed the ‘end of the age’ (Matthew 24:3 +).

Coop >> He goes from "the end is not yet," and such phrases, to "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation..." In other words, Jesus is talking about the 2000 years of what we call church history, and suddenly, He is at the midpoint of the week!

Heh . . . Christ never utters one word about this 2000 years mystery time, as all of that was given to the Apostle Paul as part of “the mystery†(Ephesians 3:3). Christ is describing ‘end of the age’ events connected to ‘Your Coming’ (Matthew 24:3), as if this 2000 Years mystery time would never exist. The ‘gospel of the kingdom’ (Matthew 24:14) is the same gospel that Christ Himself is preaching 2000 years ago (Matthew 4:23, Matthew 9:35), as He had yet to die for the sins of anybody.

Coop >> What happened to the first half of the week? Jesus did not even mention it.

That is Bullony. He has been describing the first half of the week from Matthew 24:4, which includes the tribulation of verse 9 and the ‘wars and rumors of wars, earthquakes, famines,’ etc.). Your willingness and propensity to selectively read certain things and block out others is clearly apparent.

Coop >> I know, many people think that verses 4-14 are in the first half of the week. I disagree. These same people would say that the seals are also in the first half of the week, and again I would disagree.

Forget about any seals, trumpets or all the signs given in Revelation, because Christ does not mention them here in Matthew 24. Christ is indeed talking about ‘tribulation’ (Matthew 24:9) BEFORE the antichrist even appears in the holy place (Matthew 24:15), as verse falls directly between Matthew 24:1 and Matthew 24:30 and His Return. You can disagree all you like . . .

Coop >> They are just not reading Revelation chapter five close enough.

Heh . . . And you feel qualified to offer commentary on the Book of Revelation? John places the “Great Tribulation†(Revelation 7:14) and that ‘end of the age’ event in the first one third of the Book. That means the “Beast†AND the “Dragon†(Revelation 13) are already on the scene and deceiving the whole world. The antichrist MUST enter the Holy Place and set up his “abomination of desolation†(Matthew 24:15) BEFORE that ‘Great Tribulation’ even begins in Matthew 24:21. The hysterical part is that you want to invent ANOTHER 1000 Years “Day of the Lord†and place that AFTER the start of Revelation 20. You FAIL to realize that Revelation 20 is an OVERVIEW of the same 1000 Years that started way back in Revelation 1. That is why we can see the “Great Tribulation†right here in Revelation 7 in the first place. Therefore, please do not try to judge “They†like you have it all tied into a nice little knot . . .

Coop >> It is my guess that many people will miss the signing or confirming of this 7 year peace treaty. It may not make world news. It may be kept secret. The one thing that could not escape notice would be the construction of the temple. There can be no doubt that there will be a temple, for John is told to measure it!

Keep guessing and eventually ‘the truth’ just might stare you back in the face. Elijah comes to restore all things (Matthew 17:10-11) to Israel long before the antichrist appears to set up his “abomination of desolation.†Daniel sees the signing of the ‘firm covenant with many for one week’ (Daniel 9:27) VERY CLEARLY, but Christ focuses upon the ‘middle of the week’ abomination of desolation (Matthew 24:15) aspect in giving the signs to His Elect in Matthew 24. The signing of peace treaties among great nations is Headline News in our day and we can expect these events to capture the notice of the whole world in that day.

Terral Original >> . . . and Paul is describing the ‘day of the Lord’ COMING some 1000 Years earlier (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17),

Coop >> This is your imagination running wild. The very first mention of the thousand years in when Satan is bound.

Satan is bound for the entire 1000 Years “Day of the Lord,†which John is standing inside in Revelation 1:10. You are starting the 1000 Years Day of the Lord in the back of Revelation, instead of at the very beginning like John says. The fact that Revelation 20 is an overview chapter has escaped your own notice. But you think the “Lord’s Day†is a reference to one particular “Sunday.†Haaa! That is funny also. However, then to say others interpret Revelation 5 incorrectly just adds to the big joke on you . . .

Coop >> The millennium starts here in Rev. 20. Anything before this time: i.e. Revelation 1 -20, is part of the church age, or the age of grace.

OMG . . . There is no such thing as any “age of grace†in the entire Bible. We have been living through the same “evil age†(Galatians 1:4) since the darkness (Ephesians 6:12) fell in Genesis 1:2. The end of this evil age comes when Satan and all his cronies are in the lake of fire and the final judgment takes place in Revelation 20:10-15. According to you, the “Great Tribulation†of Revelation 7:14 takes place during your imaginary “age of grace,†when Christ Himself places that just before His coming (Matthew 24:30) in Matthew 24:21. Since Daniel gives the exact number of days from Matthew 24:15 (abomination of desolation) and the ‘end’ (1,290 days = Daniel 12:11), then your statement above is utter and complete NONSENSE.

John tells you that this Book of Revelation is a book of PROPHECY (Revelation 22:7-10, Revelation 22:18-19), which means Daniel and the OT Prophets WERE given to see these events. However, Paul says our translation to immortality (1 Corinthians 15:51-53) is part of the ‘mystery’ (1 Corinthians 15:51) that NONE of the OT Prophets were given to see. Paul also describes our trumpet (1 Corinthians 15:52, 1 Thessalonians 4:16) sounding, when the “Day of the Lord†(1 Thessalonians 5:1-2) is AT HAND (2 Thessalonians 2:2). That is the sound of the trumpet heard “behind†John (Revelation 1:10), who is already standing inside the “Lord’s Day†(Day of the Lord). The ‘voice of the archangel’ (1 Thessalonians 4:16) is with Christ, when He comes to gather us to Himself. That marks the moment that Satan with all the members of his evil body (Ephesians 6:12) are bound in the pit for the 1000 years that BEGINS right here in Revelation 1. Heh . . . church age indeed . . . No such thing exists. Paul is describing the ‘dispensation of God’s grace’ (Ephesians 3:2), which is OVER on this earth when we are taken to START this 1000 Years “Day of the Lord.â€Â

Coop >> It is the time that Israel is blinded so that the fulness of the Gentiles can come in. You better read your Thes. Scriptures again - without preconceived glasses on.

Please . . . This side of the Debate has read the Pauline Epistles hundreds of times. Anyone using such unbiblical phrases as “church age†and “age of grace†has no business giving out advice to anyone; talk about dark sunglasses . . . Holy Molies . . . Please provide us with just one verse of Scripture teaching that nonsense . . . GL.

Coop >> As I have said over and over, there is no such period of time called "times and seasons." Again, you are reading this with preconceived glasses. Any time is a "time," and any time is a "season." The point is, can you read the times and seasons?

Lord Have Mercy . . . Christ and Paul both describe events relating to the ‘times and epochs’ (Acts 1:6-7, 1 Thessalonians 5:1-2), but you say this does not exist. AND, you are perfectly willing to toss this imaginary “age of grace†around like that means something. Christ connects the ‘times and epochs’ to the restoration of the kingdom to Israel (Acts 1:6-7) AND Paul says that period COMES (1 Thessalonians 5:1-2) with the “Day of the Lord†being “at hand†(2 Thessalonians 2:2). Please pull your head out of the sand and let’s read the Bible for what it ‘does say,’ instead of what you wish.

Coop >> The restoration of Israel will be immediately after the judgement of the nations, which will be the start of the Millennium.

Lord . . . Have . . . Mercy. The blind are truly leading the blind . . . Christ Himself connects His coming (Matthew 24:30-31) to the JUDGMENT of Matthew 25:31-33, which is an END OF THE AGE (Matthew 24:3 +) event. Paul connects the ‘times and epochs’ (1 Thessalonians 5:1-2) to the START of the “Day of the Lord,†which is part of THIS EVIL AGE. You are trying to start the 1000 Years AFTER Christ’s coming with total disregard for the fact that He comes (Matthew 24:30) AFTER the Great Tribulation (Matthew 24:21) and events taking place in Revelation 7:14. The same Temple that the antichrist uses in Matthew 24:15 MUST be already there, which tells you that the ‘times and epochs’ restoration of the kingdom to Israel is already fulfilled. Daniel connects the ‘abomination of desolation’ (Daniel 12:11) directly to the END OF THE AGE (Daniel 12:13), just like Christ in Matthew 24:15-31. You are pretending that Christ is coming to set up another 1000 Years TEMPORARY Kingdom at His ‘end of the age’ coming. Now THAT is truly funny . . . Here is the 64 million dollar question that shall find your house of cards scattered all over the floor:

1. If Christ is coming to set up a 1000 Years Kingdom (NOT) at the ‘end of the age’ (Matthew 24:30-31), then what causes that kingdom to end?

Prophecy says that the kingdom Christ sets up NEVER ENDS. (“forevermoreâ€Â) Isaiah 9:6-7. The kingdom Elijah restored to Israel will have an end, when the Dragon and his Beast (Revelation 13) set up their ‘abomination of desolation’ (Matthew 24:15) just prior to the END OF THE AGE. Since this is the END of the age, then you should realize that a new age (Revelation 21:1 +) is about to begin. The only thing for Christ to do at His return (Matthew 24:30-31) is to defeat the enemy at the Battle of Armageddon (easy as pie = Revelation 14:20) and Judge the Living (Matthew 25:31-33) and the dead (Revelation 20:11-15); after throwing the Beast, False Prophet (Revelation 19:20) and Satan’s sorry behind (Revelation 20:10) into the lake of fire.

There is no second 1000 Years “Day of the Lord,†as that just took place between Revelation 1 and Revelation 20. You cannot say that Satan is released 1000 Years LATER, because he participated with the Beast in Revelation 13 in THIS EVIL AGE. The age changes between the Judgment of Revelation 20:11-15 AND Revelation 21:1, when this current heavens and earth pass away. There is NO TIME for another 1000 years for Christ to set up any temporary kingdom on this earth, as any reason you can produce for ending that kingdom just went into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:10), before that final judgment even begins (Revelation 20:11-15).

Coop >> Sorry, but they are not restored before this. Yes, a small group will start their daily sacrifices again, soon after the 7 year covenant is signed, but only a remnant will survive the time of great tribulation. (snip meaningless dribble)

There is no Scripture in your words, partner. ZERO. Christ told Pilate that His kingdom is not of this world or even of this realm (John 18:36). David sits on the throne on this earth during the 1000 Years (Ezekiel 34:21-25) AND forever (Ezekiel 37:24-28) AFTER the resurrection (Ezekiel 37:11-12) that starts the New Earth in Revelation 21:1. Christ is the Lord and Heaven is His throne and this earth is His footstool (Isaiah 66:1).

Terral Original >> How much time exists between the antichrist entering the holy place (Matthew 24:15) and the restoration of that Temple (Matthew 17:10-11, Acts 3:21) in the first place??

Coop >> You are still hung up and confused about Elijah coming. Again - preconceived glasses! When are you going to believe Jesus words: "That Elias is come already, and they knew him not..." You are confused here because you are confused about "the restoration of all things."

And you call this an answer? Christ told Peter, John and James that Elijah is coming to restore all things. Matthew 17:10-11. You are PRETENDING that He said “Elijah is NOT coming and will NOT restore all things.†The difference between your interpretation and mine is that everything in my explanation is supported by the Word of God as Scripture “is†written. Yours invents and ‘age of grace’ and denies what is clearly written, so you can prop up something else. You totally IGNORE Peter’s prophesies about the prophet in Acts 3:21-26, about the restoration of ALL THINGS (Acts 3:21). Who is that prophet of Acts 3:22-26? This side is getting weary of asking the same questions over and over again, for your side to simply “cut†them from your reply. Those are the tactics of one with a very weak case indeed, which goes right along with your selective reading habits . . .

Coop >> The temple will be restored quickly during the beginning of the week (probably because the beast will give the permission) or else it will be built before the week even starts. Elijah will NOT be there. The daily sacrifices must be started before the midpoint.

Lord . . . Have . . . Mercy. And you all this an answer? Heh . . . “probably because . . .†. . . “or else . . . � No sir. Christ says that the ‘times and epochs’ period is about the restoration of the kingdom to Israel in Acts 1:6-7, even if those things were not to be restored 2000 Years ago. Paul connects the same ‘times and epochs’ (1 Thessalonians 5:1-2) period to the ‘Day of the Lord’ COMING (2 Thessalonians 2:2). Restoring the kingdom of Israel includes the Temple (Ezekiel 40 +) and the Kingdom being divided among Israel (Ezekiel 47 + Ezekiel 48), according to the words of the Old Testament Prophets (Acts 3:21). All of that requires massive amounts of time and you will not find the Beast authorizing any of that, according to Ezekiel. My God, man, the prince is giving regular sacrifices for sin offerings year by year, according to the prophecies.

"It shall be the prince's part to provide the burnt offerings, the grain offerings and the drink offerings, at the feasts, on the new moons and on the sabbaths, at all the appointed feasts of the house of Israel; he shall provide the sin offering, the grain offering, the burnt offering and the peace offerings, to make atonement for the house of Israel." Ezekiel 45:17.

"On that day the prince shall provide for himself and all the people of the land a bull for a sin offering.†Ezekiel 45:22.

We know this ‘prince’ is David (Ezekiel 34:21-34) and not Christ, because this ‘prince’ has the need to provide a sin offering “for himself.’ This is the ‘sacrifice and grain offering’ that the antichrist will ‘put a stop to’ (Daniel 9:27) very near the ‘end of the age’ and almost 1000 Years from the time the kingdom AND Temple are restored by Elijah. Elijah is the ‘prophet’ of Acts 3:21-26 coming to restore ‘all things’ (Acts 3:21) that you guys wish to completely ignore. Are you also willing to believe that this‘prophet’ of Acts 3 does not exist, even though Peter also connects his activities to the restoration of all things (Acts 3:21)?? You cannot transform him into Christ, because he will ‘raise up’ from ‘your brethren’ (Acts 3:22), BUT Christ returns on the clouds (Matthew 24:30-31). There is no other prophet in Scripture prophesied to return and restore all things EXCEPT ELIJAH (Matthew 17:10-11). Go ahead and ignore the facts in this case if you like, but one side if this Debate has resolved all the potential contradictions and sees the truth very clearly.

Terral Original >> That will tell us the length of time between ‘our’ Rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:17) and these ‘end of the age’ events.

Coop >> How can you put the rapture and the midpoint events into any kind of "length of time?" They are not associated.

If you cannot offer any comment, then there is no sense in quoting me in the first place. Just cut those things from my posts like you do every reference to Acts 3:21-26, which also refutes your interpretation. The time between our mystery gathering and the ‘end of the age’ is the same 1000 Years of time present within the “Day of the Lord†itself. That is the right answer, whether you ever accept the truth or not.

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

 

[lecoop]

Re: The Day Of The Lord Is As A Thousand Years

Hi Coop:

Thank you for writing. Again, this color coding method of yours is difficult to follow and confusing.

Coop >> Of course there is "one week" of 7 years. There is much proof of this. however, in Matt. 24, mark 13, and Luke 21, Jesus does not even mention the first 3 1/2 years of this week.

Christ did not begin His Olivet Discourse in Matthew 24:15. Are we blind? This is about half way between the disciple’s question in Matthew 24:3 AND “Your Coming†in Matthew 24:30-31. Does Christ’s first mention of ‘tribulation’ come AFTER Matthew 24:15 or BEFORE that in Matthew 4:9? “Tribulation†has indeed been going on all the way back to Matthew 24:4-7 and the “Great†Tribulation starts only in the last half (Matthew 24:21) of that tribulation period. This simple point about the “Great Tribulation†(Revelation 7:14) is one that blows your interpretation right out of the water.

I started using colors because I exceeded the number of quotes allowed several times, and could not get what I had written posted, until I decreased the number of quotes.

What did I say? Let's read it again: "however, in Matt. 24, mark 13, and Luke 21, Jesus does not even mention the first 3 1/2 years of this week. I stand by this. Everything up to when Jesus mentioned the abomination, was speaking of things in our past - not related to the 70th week at all. In fact, Jesus told us this, when he said, "the end is not yet." Perhaps John can clear this up a little. Did you notice what John said about the time he was living in, in about 95 AD?[/color]
Rev 1
9 I, John, who also [am] your brother, and fellow-partner in the tribulation, and in the reign and endurance, of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, because of the word of God, and because of the testimony of Jesus Christ;

John is saying that "the tribulation" was happening way back then! Jesus said "9 then they shall deliver you up to tribulation, and shall kill you,..." I ask you, did this happen to John and his fellow apostles? Of course it did - althought they tried to kill John and could not - so banished him. I am saying plainly that the verses Mat. 24:4-12 is all history to us. Jesus was not speaking of the first 3 1/2 years. Many people have realated these verses to the first four seals - in error, I might add - saying that they relate to each other and are showing the first half of the week. In the first place, the first seal (white horse) is not in any way related to the red, black and pale horses. Yes, I agree that what Jesus was saying in the first 12 verses or so, are related to what the red, black and pale horses and riders do. The big question is then, when are these 2nd, 3rd, and 4th seals broken? They are broken very soon after Jesus rose from the dead. Therefore, what Jesus said in the first 12 verses or so, and what these horses and riders accomplish, is way back in our history, and is continuing up to today. Just to make sure you understand what I am saying, I will say it again. The first five seals were broken as soon as Jesus arrived in heaven, having risen from the dead. John clearly shows is this.

Jesus then makes a sudden change to the middle of the week; having shown us nothing of the first 3 1/2 years. So, yes, Jesus mentions "tribulation" in verse 9, and that has been going on since John's day. In verse 15, althought it is not written there, the "great tribulation" starts. The only difference in "tribulation" and "great tribulation" is the intensity and the time. I don't think any Jew in Germany in WW II would disagree if you said they were living in "great tribulation." However, the "great tribulation" coming will be even worse.

Terral said
Can we agree that the “Great Tribulation†begins AFTER the “abomination of desolation†(Daniel 11:31, Daniel 12:11) is already set up in Matthew 24:15?

Yes, of course.

Terral said
Well? Can we? Of course, because Christ is giving us a chronological discourse and Matthew 24:21 (Great Tribulation) appears AFTER Matthew 24:15. That means the events of Revelation 7:14 where “These are the ones who come out of the Great Tribulation . . .†are taking place BETWEEN Matthew 24:21 AND Matthew 24:30-31 where Christ returns. This also tells you that the prophetic events of Revelation are NOT given in chronological order.

Both JEsus and John give us a chronological account. However, Jesus skips the first 3 1/2 years, and goes straight to the midpoint. Why do I say this? I can read:

Mat. 24
6 and ye shall begin to hear of wars, and reports of wars; see, be not troubled, for it behoveth all [these] to come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 `For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places;
8 and all these [are] the beginning of sorrows;
9 then they shall deliver you up to tribulation, and shall kill you, and ye shall be hated by all the nations because of my name;
10 and then shall many be stumbled, and they shall deliver up one another, and shall hate one another.
11 `And many false prophets shall arise, and shall lead many astray;
12 and because of the abounding of the lawlessness, the love of the many shall become cold;
13 but he who did endure to the end, he shall be saved;

Please notice in verse 6 that Jesus says "the end is not yet." What does he mean? He means that he is not speaking of end time events yet. All these things happened before John died! What happens then? Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes. All these things happened way back in the first century, and then have continued. Jesus called this time (the church age) the beginning of sorrows. Notice the 1st word of verse 9: "then." When is then? "Then" refers back to "the end is not yet."

Notice the second word in verse 10: "then." Again, the "then" refers back to "the end is not yet." Verse 11 and 12 follow that "then" and are speaking of times long before the "end" Finally, in verse 13, Jesus mentions the time of the end. All these things are history to us. Just as further proof, Luke puts things a little differently.

Luke 21 (Youngs literal)
9 and when ye may hear of wars and uprisings, be not terrified, for it behoveth these things to happen first, but the end [is] not immediately.'
10 Then said he to them, `Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom,
11 great shakings also in every place, and famines, and pestilences, there shall be; fearful things also, and great signs from heaven there shall be;
12 and before all these, they shall lay on you their hands, and persecute, delivering up to synagogues and prisons, being brought before kings and governors for my name's sake;
13 and it shall become to you for a testimony.

Notice in verse 9, Luke says "the end is not immediately." What is he saying? Just what Matthew said, " the end is not yet." In other words, Luke is speaking of things that would happen in the near future to the time he was living. That was about 2000 years ago! Notice verse 12 says, "before all these..." Before what? "Nations rising against nations, etc. Again, all this is proof that these verses are speaking of things in our past.

Terral said
Daniel just happens to give us the number of days from Matthew 24:15 AND ‘the end’ in Daniel 12:11-13 (1,290 days). The antichrist has already entered the Temple, which represents the “Beast†of Revelation 13 AND the ‘Dragon’ (Satan) is already out of the pit giving him power and authority (Revelation 13:1-4). That tells you Satan has already been in the pit for the 1000 Years and has already been released (Revelation 20:7), as this is indeed the ‘end of the age’ (Matthew 24:3 +).

No, it tells me nothing of the sort! Satan gets cast out of heaven - not out of the pit! He has been allowed access to heaven for the entire church age, accusing us before the Father. He is cast out of heaven at the midpoint of the week. No wonder your 1000 years is all mixed up!

[quote:1b106]Coop >> He goes from "the end is not yet," and such phrases, to "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation..." In other words, Jesus is talking about the 2000 years of what we call church history, and suddenly, He is at the midpoint of the week!

Terral said
Heh . . . Christ never utters one word about this 2000 years mystery time, as all of that was given to the Apostle Paul as part of “the mystery†(Ephesians 3:3). Christ is describing ‘end of the age’ events connected to ‘Your Coming’ (Matthew 24:3), as if this 2000 Years mystery time would never exist.[/quote:1b106]

Commentary after commantary mentions Lukes "20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh..." as referring to 70 AD. God in His great mercy, allowed Luke to write it so that the Christians in Jerusalem would see this sign of the surrounding armies, and leave! And they all did! You are simple mistaken here. However, I will agree with you so far as the mystery of the church. However, there are many in the world that are not part of the church. Jesus was not speaking per se, of the chruch, but of the movement of time; starting with then, up to the end.

Terral said
The ‘gospel of the kingdom’ (Matthew 24:14) is the same gospel that Christ Himself is preaching 2000 years ago (Matthew 4:23, Matthew 9:35), as He had yet to die for the sins of anybody.

Did you not read Romans through Jude? Of course He died for the sins of the whole world. You amaze me!

[quote:1b106]Coop >> What happened to the first half of the week? Jesus did not even mention it.

That is Bullony. He has been describing the first half of the week from Matthew 24:4, which includes the tribulation of verse 9 and the ‘wars and rumors of wars, earthquakes, famines,’ etc.). Your willingness and propensity to selectively read certain things and block out others is clearly apparent.[/quote:1b106]

I guess you better go and read it again; this time without preconceived glasses. Remember, " the end is not yet," and "the end [is] not immediately." (Youngs literal)

[quote:1b106]Coop >> I know, many people think that verses 4-14 are in the first half of the week. I disagree. These same people would say that the seals are also in the first half of the week, and again I would disagree.

Forget about any seals, trumpets or all the signs given in Revelation, because Christ does not mention them here in Matthew 24. Christ is indeed talking about ‘tribulation’ (Matthew 24:9) BEFORE the antichrist even appears in the holy place (Matthew 24:15), as verse falls directly between Matthew 24:1 and Matthew 24:30 and His Return. You can disagree all you like . . . [/quote:1b106]

Yes, the tribulation in Matthew 24:9 is what John was living through in AD 95.

Coop >> They are just not reading Revelation chapter five close enough.

Heh . . . And you feel qualified to offer commentary on the Book of Revelation? John places the “Great Tribulation†(Revelation 7:14) and that ‘end of the age’ event in the first one third of the Book. That means the “Beast†AND the “Dragon†(Revelation 13) are already on the scene and deceiving the whole world. The antichrist MUST enter the Holy Place and set up his “abomination of desolation†(Matthew 24:15) BEFORE that ‘Great Tribulation’ even begins in Matthew 24:21. The hysterical part is that you want to invent ANOTHER 1000 Years “Day of the Lord†and place that AFTER the start of Revelation 20. You FAIL to realize that Revelation 20 is an OVERVIEW of the same 1000 Years that started way back in Revelation 1. That is why we can see the “Great Tribulation†right here in Revelation 7 in the first place. Therefore, please do not try to judge “They†like you have it all tied into a nice little knot . . .

If you will read closly, the "great tribulation" that the great crowd come out of, is not the "great tribulation" caused by the beast; indeed it cannot be. Notice the time that John is shown this great crowd: it is just after the 144,000 are sealed. Would you "close the barn door," I mean, would you seal the 144000 in the middle of the crisis or 70th week? God is smart enough to seal them just before the week starts. That way, they are protected during the first half of the week, during the time of the trumpets. Later John sees this same group in heaven: God's "first fruits." This great crowd is seen way before the time of the beast. He shows up in chapter 13, right at the midpoint, as prophecied. What you have missed is that there is "great tribulion" going on right now, in places like Sudan. However, it is not the time after the abomination. Do you suppose that "great" tribulation cannot come until the AOD? I say that anytime people are being killed, to them it is "great tribulation." I simple disagree with your 1000 years. You seem to pull yours right out of thin air, where I read my from the text: Satan is bound for 1000 years. I do not view chapter 20 as an over view, but just events that take place after the events in chapter 19. God is not trying to confuse us with this book. It is a "revealing."

[quote:1b106]Coop >> It is my guess that many people will miss the signing or confirming of this 7 year peace treaty. It may not make world news. It may be kept secret. The one thing that could not escape notice would be the construction of the temple. There can be no doubt that there will be a temple, for John is told to measure it!

Keep guessing and eventually ‘the truth’ just might stare you back in the face. Elijah comes to restore all things (Matthew 17:10-11) to Israel long before the antichrist appears to set up his “abomination of desolation.†Daniel sees the signing of the ‘firm covenant with many for one week’ (Daniel 9:27) VERY CLEARLY, but Christ focuses upon the ‘middle of the week’ abomination of desolation (Matthew 24:15) aspect in giving the signs to His Elect in Matthew 24. The signing of peace treaties among great nations is Headline News in our day and we can expect these events to capture the notice of the whole world in that day.[/quote:1b106]

Don't be surprised if you are raptured before you see this "restoration" you think will happen.

I am giving up here. Your ideas are just too wild. "The Lord's day" has been Sunday from the days of the apostles, way back at the time of Saint Ignatius of Antioch. Why you want to read something else into it is beyond me. As for the "age of grace," you can call it what you want. It is called this because we are saved by grace. It is the "church age" because the body of Christ is still not complete. The "church" is the body of Christ. Why should this name bother you? Again, what do you call it? The age of mystery? It is no longer a mystery, for God revvealed it to Paul, and he to us. One thing is clear to me: we are too far off to even discuss it. I think your ideas are wild, and apparently you think the same of mine.

Coop

 

[Terral]

Your Side Went From Making Little Sense To NO Sense At All

Hi Coop:

Thank you very much for writing. Some of your points are a rehashing of things already provided above.

Coop >>  I started using colors because I exceeded the number of quotes allowed several times, and could not get what I had written posted, until I decreased the number of quotes.

That makes no sense at all. Some of my posts contain far more quotes and everything posts every time.

Coop >> What did I say? Let's read it again: "however, in Matt. 24, mark 13, and Luke 21, Jesus does not even mention the first 3 1/2 years of this week. I stand by this. Everything up to when Jesus mentioned the abomination, was speaking of things in our past - not related to the 70th week at all. (snip)

No sir. Everything Christ says from Matthew 24:4-31 is all future and takes place very near the ‘end of the age’ (Matthew 24:3).

Coop >> In fact, Jesus told us this, when he said, "the end is not yet." Perhaps John can clear this up a little. Did you notice what John said about the time he was living in, in about 95 AD?

Coop Quotes >> Rev 1 9 I, John, who also [am] your brother, and fellow-partner in the tribulation, and in the reign and endurance, of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, because of the word of God, and because of the testimony of Jesus Christ;

Coop Again >> John is saying that "the tribulation" was happening way back then! (snip)

No sir. Christ connects His ‘end of the age’ ‘tribulation’ (Matthew 24:9) through a series of events leading up to the antichrist appearing in the Temple (Matthew 24:15), which is how we know those things are connected. However, John is talking about the tribulation experienced in Israel 2000 years ago, when Jerusalem was leveled by the Romans. Your reference is part of the reason this prophetic book is dated after many of the others. John has not yet started with his visions in John 1:9, as the trumpet sounds off behind him in the next verse (Revelation 1:10). Christ appears to him and the prophecy begins for the “Lord’s Day†(Day of the Lord) from that point.

Coop >> Jesus said "9 then they shall deliver you up to tribulation, and shall kill you,..." I ask you, did this happen to John and his fellow apostles? Of course it did - althought they tried to kill John and could not - so banished him. I am saying plainly that the verses Mat. 24:4-12 is all history to us. (snip – you are not qualified to even speak of any seals and horses of Revelation)

In other words, you are just going to remove the true context of “Your coming†and the “end of the age†from the question of the disciples in Matthew 24:3 and provide your own context. Please . . . I thought your testimony could not become less credible . . . I was wrong . . .

Terral Original >> Can we agree that the “Great Tribulation†begins AFTER the “abomination of desolation†(Daniel 11:31, Daniel 12:11) is already set up in Matthew 24:15?

Coop >> Yes, of course.

Terral Continues >> Well? Can we? Of course, because Christ is giving us a chronological discourse and Matthew 24:21 (Great Tribulation) appears AFTER Matthew 24:15. That means the events of Revelation 7:14 where “These are the ones who come out of the Great Tribulation . . .†are taking place BETWEEN Matthew 24:21 AND Matthew 24:30-31 where Christ returns. This also tells you that the prophetic events of Revelation are NOT given in chronological order.

Coop’s Reply >> Both JEsus and John give us a chronological account. However, Jesus skips the first 3 1/2 years, and goes straight to the midpoint. Why do I say this? I can read: (snip Matthew 24:6-13) Please notice in verse 6 that Jesus says "the end is not yet." What does he mean? He means that he is not speaking of end time events yet. All these things happened before John died!

Bullony. Christ has been talking about the events leading up to “Your Coming†and the “End of the Age†(Matthew 24:3) all the way from Matthew 24:4. You are playing with Christ’s Olivet Discourse AND with the tenses of the Greek to prop up a semi-Preterist interpretation. Nothing coming out of your mouth here is Biblical, as you transform part of Christ’s END OF THE AGE Discourse into events taking place 2000 years ago to the choose when you would like for Him to begin speaking in the future tense. That is silly and ridiculous . . .

Coop >> What happens then? Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes. All these things happened way back in the first century, and then have continued. Jesus called this time (the church age) the beginning of sorrows. Notice the 1st word of verse 9: "then." When is then? "Then" refers back to "the end is not yet." (snip nonsense)

Notice? My God, man . . . Most everything out of your mouth is Bullony. The Twelve ask Christ to tell them about “Your Coming†and the “End of the Age†(Matthew 24:3) and you PRETEND that the first half of His Discourse is about things taking place 2000 years ago. Shame on you . . . That is the product of building yourself a pie in the sky interpretation that does not fit God’s Word. Then you must make things up as you go along to force things into fitting.

Terral Original >> Daniel just happens to give us the number of days from Matthew 24:15 AND ‘the end’ in Daniel 12:11-13 (1,290 days). The antichrist has already entered the Temple, which represents the “Beast†of Revelation 13 AND the ‘Dragon’ (Satan) is already out of the pit giving him power and authority (Revelation 13:1-4). That tells you Satan has already been in the pit for the 1000 Years and has already been released (Revelation 20:7), as this is indeed the ‘end of the age’ (Matthew 24:3 +).

Coop >> No, it tells me nothing of the sort! Satan gets cast out of heaven - not out of the pit! He has been allowed access to heaven for the entire church age, accusing us before the Father. He is cast out of heaven at the midpoint of the week. No wonder your 1000 years is all mixed up!

Holy Molies . . . and you go on like this invented “church age†means something. Nothing you say addressed the point you quoted from me. This is all about the ‘Great Tribulation’ in Matthew 24:21 falling BETWEEN the setting up of the ‘abomination of desolation’ (Matthew 24:15) and Christ’s return just 15 verses later (Matthew 24:30-31). Daniel placed a specific number of days on that time (1,290 = Daniel 12:11) and you cannot muster a reply. Satan was cast down by Michael a very long time ago, as the events of Revelation 12 are typical of the ‘short time’ (Revelation 12:12) that he has in our future (Revelation 20:7). The dragon and the beast are working in unison in Revelation 13, because they are both present on the earth among men. That must take place after the devil is released from the pit and before he goes into the lake of fire just three verses later (Revelation 20:7-10). And, quite frankly your views are far too convoluted and distorted to lead anyone astray. If I remove the coding from this abortion you call a reply, then there is no way to tell who is talking, but trying to answer nonsense this way is way too much trouble.

Thank you for trying to help me undertstand your interpretations on 'end of the age' events, which make little or no sense at all.

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

 

[John the Baptist]

Acts 15
28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

Do we see anything about the 7th day here? No.

****
John here:
First off, Acts 15:1 & Acts 15:5 tells what the reason was for the meeting. It had nothing to do with the Covenant of Eternity! Hebrews 13:20. It was the Law of Moses that is being 'junked'!
****

Where do you come up with such an idea about the 1000 years? Where are we during this 1000 years, in your mind?

Coop

****
And about the above 1000 years? 1 Corinthians 6:1-3 tells us that we will have a part in the 'Final' Executional Judgement.

You think that, that is far/fetched? Even the USA was founded upon similar Biblical principles. (summons-trial-guilt or innocence-'wheat & tares seperated'-judgement executional stage) In Gods Final Judgement all that will be lacking is the Execution part of the length of punishment. See Obadiah 1:16.

When Christ returns 'all is over' & He brings His reward with Him. Saved or lost. (Matthew 16:27) The last of Ecclesiastes 12:13-14 tells what the 'whole duty' for mankind was! When Christ comes, these ones fate is non-reversible, settled!

The earth is as the post of mine described! (BIBLICALLY)
The 1000 years are for the lost DEAD's Executional stage judgement. 'punishment'. See Luke 12:47-48. The only way that they will be in heaven is by the RECORD BOOKS. Revelation 20:12-14

They will be resurrected to die the SECOND DEATH. Revelation 20:5-6.
****

 

[Jay T]

Re: Daniel's "One Week" Represents Those Seven Yea

[Perhaps it is not the 7 year time frame that he is disagreeing with, but the title you have applied to this 7 years. Where is this 7 year period called "the tribulation" in the bible? I think a better term would be the "70th week."

Coop

I was never good at math in school, but I always knew 70 always came right after 69.
So, how does a 70th week come, with a gap of 2000 years between 69th week and 70th week ?

 

[lecoop]

This dumb thing just deleted my post when I tried to preview it. It said something about "post mode." I will not redo it.

Coop

 

[lecoop]

Terral,

Maybe I will redo a small part. You have the 1000 years started in Rev 1:9. Therefore, you have the 1000 years that Satan was bound starting in 95 AD! So it went from 95 AD to 1095 AD! I don't think so! And you think my interpretations are farfetched?

Coop

 

[Jay T]

Terral,

Maybe I will redo a small part. You have the 1000 years started in Rev 1:9. Therefore, you have the 1000 years that Satan was bound starting in 95 AD! So it went from 95 AD to 1095 AD! I don't think so! And you think my interpretations are farfetched?

Coop

Chapter 20 of Revelation is about the millenium.
The first resurrection (church + Righteous dead) start the millenium, then satan is bound by a 1000 years (having no one to tempt, because all the wicked are dead).

 

[lecoop]

"times and seasons"

Terral,

I was amazed to be reading Sir Robert Anderson's fine book, "the Coming Prince," when I ran onto this:

We need further to be warned against the error into which the Thessalonian Christians were betrayed. Their conversion was described as a turning from idols to serve the true God and "to wait for His Son from heaven." And the coming of the Lord was presented to them as a practical and present hope, to comfort and gladden them as they mourned their dead. (1 Thessalonians 1:9, 10, and 4:13-18.) But when the Apostle passed on to speak of "the times and seasons" and "the day of Jehovah," (1 Thessalonians 5:1-3.) they misunderstood the teaching; and, supposing that the coming of the Lord was immediately connected with the day of Jehovah, they concluded that that awful day was breaking. On both points they were wholly wrong. In the Second Epistle the Apostle wrote, "Now we beseech you, brethren, in behalf of the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together unto Him, to the end that ye be not quickly shaken from your mind, nor yet be troubled, either by spirit, or by word, or by epistle as from us [referring of course to the First Epistle], as that the day of the Lord is now present."[2]
2. 2 Thessalonians 2:1, 2, R. V. "The day of Christ" in A. V. is a wrong reading.

"The times and seasons" are connected with Israel's hope and the events which will precede the realization of it. (Acts 1:6, 7.) The Church's hope is wholly independent of them. And if the Christians of the early days were taught to "live looking for that blessed hope," how much more may we! Not a line of prophecy must first be fulfilled; not a single event need intervene. And any system of interpretation-or of doctrine which clashes with this, and thus falsities the teaching of the Apostles of our Lord, stands thereby condemned.[3]

This book, "The Coming Prince," is the first time, as far as I have ever heard, that the 173,880 days (69 weeks of years) was worked out to the very day; the day that Jesus rode the colt into Jerusalem. Sir Robert Anderson was the famous former Chief of Scotland Yard, in the late 1800's. Anyway, notice his mention of the "times and seasons."

Coop

 

[Jay T]

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
24:30 And THEN...shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Question: Did you get it ?



OK...Let's try another one......
2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and [by] our gathering together unto him,
2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way.
2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
QUESTION: Did you pick up on verse 8 ?
The wicked are destroyed....with Christ's coming !

HEY !!!
Isn't that about what Matthew 24:37.....and, on says ?

Matthew 24:37 But as the days of Noe [were], so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
QUESTION: What happened to the wicked, in Noah's day of the Flood ?

Now tell me.....why do the people who advocate the Rapture theory, ignore... these Bible verses ?

The Bible states the fact ....3 times at least.....that Christ returns ...Towards the end, o the Tribulation period.
#1.) Matthew 24:20.....
#2.)2 Thessalonians 2:1-8
#3.) Revelation 14:6-16

 

[lecoop]

Jay T,

No, we don't ignore any bible verses. We believe exactly what these verses say. However, we believe they say something different than what you believe. Yes, Jesus comes back "immediately" after the tribulation of "those days." Every eye will see Him. He will send out his angels. He will touch His feet to the ground. However, we believe that He comes for the church about 7 years before this event. After all, God is not mad at His church. He took Noah and lot "out." Why would He not take us out? Then, He did say that He was preparing a place for us, and that He would take us to that place. Hint: that place prepared is not here on earth. Several people have been taken to heaven recently, and shown their own mansion. What I wonder is why so many struggle at this whole idea.

Coop

 

[John the Baptist]

Jay T,

No, we don't ignore any bible verses. We believe exactly what these verses say. However, we believe they say something different than what you believe. Yes, Jesus comes back "immediately" after the tribulation of "those days." Every eye will see Him. He will send out his angels. He will touch His feet to the ground. However, we believe that He comes for the church about 7 years before this event. After all, God is not mad at His church. He took Noah and lot "out." Why would He not take us out? Then, He did say that He was preparing a place for us, and that He would take us to that place. Hint: that place prepared is not here on earth. Several people have been taken to heaven recently, and shown their own mansion. What I wonder is why so many struggle at this whole idea.

Coop

*******
John here: Give us some [documentation] on this, OK?

Quote:
Several people have been taken to heaven recently, and shown their own mansion. What I wonder is why so many struggle at this whole idea.

Coop[/quote]

 

[lecoop]

Heaven

Quote:
Several people have been taken to heaven recently, and shown their own mansion. What I wonder is why so many struggle at this whole idea.

Coop[/quote]


Have you never read "Angels on Assignment" by Buck? Have you not seen Jessie Duplantis' video, "Close encounters of the God Kind?" It is about his trip to heaven. What about Robert's Lairden taken to heaven when he was five years old? Then there is the book, "The other side." I believe Doctor Eby was taken to heaven also. These are just a few.

Coop

 

[John the Baptist]

Re: Heaven

Quote:
Several people have been taken to heaven recently, and shown their own mansion. What I wonder is why so many struggle at this whole idea.

Coop

Have you never read "Angels on Assignment" by Buck? Have you not seen Jessie Duplantis' video, "Close encounters of the God Kind?" It is about his trip to heaven. What about Robert's Lairden taken to heaven when he was five years old? Then there is the book, "The other side." I believe Doctor Eby was taken to heaven also. These are just a few.

Coop[/quote]

*****
John here:
No, I never have. But that would not be documentation. Because you or I say something, does that make it true? If I say something, I best (if I am creditable) back it up with something authoritative. The AUTHORITATIVE WORD says to 'PROVE ALL THINGS', but with what? A book? Or someones belief???

You say: "I believe that Doctor Eby was taken to heaven also." : Just a thought, has he come back as Christ left earth after His resurection, or is here here as Adam before sin, or is he to die again???

And right off we see Eve lied to with the devil telling her that she surely would not die. Now, is that creditable? And the ones Revelation 17:5, do you not think that they are any different that the ones of 2 Thessalonians 2:7-12?? Surely 'real miracles' even are not a test for truth! Revelation 16:13-14 tell us who they [can] originate with & for what purpose! (All professed truth needs testing by the Word of God)

It seems to me that many of the Eternally lost ones of Obadiah 1:16 will be made up from ones who have been converted to a belief of excitement, that goes by their feelings, even a lot of noise perhaps? + santanic music with even shoutings and all kind of false doctrinal stuff. Exactly like the tower of Babbling of confusion.. yet, all the while calling it the working of the Holy Ghost, while it is of another spirit. :

 

[lecoop]

Do we call our brothers in Christ liars?

Let's take Jessie Duplantis for an example. Millions of people have heard his testimony of how God took him from his hotel room, put him on a "chariot without horses" piloted by an angel, and flew him to the heavenly planet. I personally have watched his video of his testimony of these events many times. Should we automatically dismiss this testimony as false, just because it seems so impossible? No. Should we dismiss it because it is not part of the word of God? No. If Jessie's testimony disagreed with the word of God, then we would have reason to dismiss it. If Jessie's life was not a testimony to Jesus, then we would have reason to dismiss it. However, Jessie's life is exemplary. His testimony of his trip to heaven is in agreement with the word of God. For those that have not heard of it, let me give some highlights.

Was met by Father Abraham.
Was given a tour by King David.
Spoke to the Apostle Paul.
Went by Jonah's mansion.
Was taken to his own mansion, and was allowed to seeing, inside and out.
Had an appointment at the throne room.
Was pulled, by his angel, around the pearl gate into the city,
... while he, Jessie, was trying to read the names of the apostles
... written on the foundation wall. He read, James, Peter, John,
... Paul.... I believe I have the order correct.

Hit the floor of the throne room - no strength to stand.
While on the floor, saw Jesus walk right into the Father and
...the two become one - althought could not see the Father clearly.
Ask the angel, "I see the Father, and I see Jesus, but where
... is the Holy Spirit?" The angel answered, "on the earth!"
Was told by Jesus, "tell the people I am coming soon!"
Saw millions of aborted babies, many tended by family members
... gone on before...
Saw millions of aborted Asian babies, tended by angels - and ask
... the angel why. The angel said something very interesting. "There
... comes a time in every human's life when they must make a choice
... about God. Unfortunately, most Asians have made the wrong choice."
... The point was, there are few Asians in heaven to tend to the millions
... of aborted Asian babies there.
Jesus told the angel to give Jessie a tour of the mountians
... (in the chariot), because "Jessie loves the mountains."
Returned to earth in the chariot, and to his hotel room.

Dr. Eby died from a fall and was declared dead on arrival to the hospital. However, when His wife arrived, he sat up in bed and talked to her. He lived for many years after his bad fall. He has written about being in heaven while he was dead on earth.

Brother Buck was taken to heaven, and shown the book of Abraham. He mentioned to Jesus that there was a "mistake" in Abraham's book, as in, something missing! There was no record of Abraham's mistake of saying that his wife was his sister. Brother Buck ask Jesus, "Where did you write about the failures of Abraham which I have seen recorded in your own words in the Bible?" Jesus answered: "I have no other book. I DO NOT RECORD FAILURE IN HEAVEN!" http://www.angelsonassignment.org/throne_room.html

There should be no doubt that Jesus has prepared a place in heaven for His church. After all, He said He would. He also said He would come back and get us, and take us there. Again, why is this concept so hard for people to believe? After all, we know that the dead in Christ are there. We have testimony after testimony of people that have been allowed to see it, and come back and tell us.

Coop