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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
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J
John the Baptist
Guest
Christ said:
Luke 16:31
Luke 16:31
voice of one raised from the dead?
Who is the "they" in this verse? Jesus was referring to the "five brethren" of the rich man. They were unbelievers. On the other hand, we are believers. We believe what God said, i.e., Moses and the prophets, and we believe what is written. This in no way means that we can not or must not believe what someone that has risen from the dead tells us, if it agrees with the word of God. Neither does this tell us that we cannot believe a vision, if it is in agreement with the word of God.
Whether or not Jessie or Roland Buck had a vision, or actually went to heaven, we do not know. They believe they actually went there. Who am I to disagree? The thing is, we do read about these supernatural experiences in the bible, and they became part of the cannon of scripture.
Paul had a vision, and used it for direction:
Notice the "he" and the "we." Did you see? Both Luke and Timothy used Paul's vision for their direction also. Did they question if it was of God? Did they quote Luke? No, they believed.
Why then, do so many struggle today about visions and supernatural things, when God promised us that they would occur? If Jessie Duplantis tells me that he was taken to his own mansion, and discribed it in great detail, why should I doubt it? He is a man of God, and Jesus told us He was going to prepare a place for us.
Coop
John the Baptist said:Christ said:
Luke 16:31
Who is the "they" in this verse? Jesus was referring to the "five brethren" of the rich man. They were unbelievers. On the other hand, we are believers. We believe what God said, i.e., Moses and the prophets, and we believe what is written. This in no way means that we can not or must not believe what someone that has risen from the dead tells us, if it agrees with the word of God. Neither does this tell us that we cannot believe a vision, if it is in agreement with the word of God.
Whether or not Jessie or Roland Buck had a vision, or actually went to heaven, we do not know. They believe they actually went there. Who am I to disagree? The thing is, we do read about these supernatural experiences in the bible, and they became part of the cannon of scripture.
Acts 16:9
And a vision appeared to Paul in the night; There stood a man of Macedonia, and prayed him, saying, Come over into Macedonia, and help us.
Paul had a vision, and used it for direction:
Acts 16:10
And after he had seen the vision, immediately we endeavoured to go into Macedonia, assuredly gathering that the Lord had called us for to preach the gospel unto them.
Notice the "he" and the "we." Did you see? Both Luke and Timothy used Paul's vision for their direction also. Did they question if it was of God? Did they quote Luke? No, they believed.
Why then, do so many struggle today about visions and supernatural things, when God promised us that they would occur? If Jessie Duplantis tells me that he was taken to his own mansion, and discribed it in great detail, why should I doubt it? He is a man of God, and Jesus told us He was going to prepare a place for us.
Coop
Re: Heaven
Have you never read "Angels on Assignment" by Buck? Have you not seen Jessie Duplantis' video, "Close encounters of the God Kind?" It is about his trip to heaven. What about Robert's Lairden taken to heaven when he was five years old? Then there is the book, "The other side." I believe Doctor Eby was taken to heaven also. These are just a few.
Coop[/quote]
Now there is a new one, that I highly recommend! It is "Heaven IS So Real," by Choo Thomas!
God took her to heaven 17 times, so that she could write about it. She not only saw her mansion, and others, but she saw "cabins" along a river! She asked Jesus about these, and He said that He knows what we like! he did it all for us! Hallelujah!
lecoop said:Quote:
Several people have been taken to heaven recently, and shown their own mansion. What I wonder is why so many struggle at this whole idea.
Coop
Have you never read "Angels on Assignment" by Buck? Have you not seen Jessie Duplantis' video, "Close encounters of the God Kind?" It is about his trip to heaven. What about Robert's Lairden taken to heaven when he was five years old? Then there is the book, "The other side." I believe Doctor Eby was taken to heaven also. These are just a few.
Coop[/quote]
Now there is a new one, that I highly recommend! It is "Heaven IS So Real," by Choo Thomas!
God took her to heaven 17 times, so that she could write about it. She not only saw her mansion, and others, but she saw "cabins" along a river! She asked Jesus about these, and He said that He knows what we like! he did it all for us! Hallelujah!
To be consistant, the Dispensationalist must not cross into the Gospels to seek proof of the Rapture, remaining in Pauline revelations. The mystery of the Rapture [according to strict Dispensationalism] was given to the Church by Paul.
Therefore, verses that speak of the end times cannot be linked to the Church in anyway, the Church is taken away AND THEN the end comes. Mal Couch does a better job then I can do, search the net for his commentaries.
Peace.
Therefore, verses that speak of the end times cannot be linked to the Church in anyway, the Church is taken away AND THEN the end comes. Mal Couch does a better job then I can do, search the net for his commentaries.
Peace.
T
teleoisis
Guest
I can agree that the Church is removed via the resurrection of the dead in Christ and the rapture of those who are still alive and are left, but I would take issue with your statement that the end-times are not linked to the Church in books other than those authored by Paul.JM said:Therefore, verses that speak of the end times cannot be linked to the Church in anyway, the Church is taken away AND THEN the end comes.
Mal Couch for instance has a good many things to say, but when he speaks of the tribulation as such:
- This great company from every tribe, tongue, people, and nation in chapter 5 is seen in heaven before the tribulation begins in chapter 6.
Mark T.
T
teleoisis
Guest
I am not asking how many Churches Dispensationalists believe in. As a matter of fact, I'm not even sure what that question really means.
But I do see that our difference in position has to do with the fundamental nature of how you define the Great Tribulation.
Many people speak of the one 'seven' (or the seventieth 'seven') as being the time of the Great Tribulation or alternately the Tribulation period. That is not how I define it.
I define the Great Tribulation as Jesus defines it in the Olivet Discourse. Thus it begins at the midpoint as Daniel wrote from Gabriel, and the Great Tribulation lasts until the Day of the Lord. As such, since God cuts off (amputates) that time, the length of the Great Tribulation is nebulous. For reasons I will discuss later, I think a reasonable amount of time might be from several weeks to a few months.
I'm not trying to play any games here, but for any real discussion we would have, we have to agree on our terms' definitions. If we cannot agree on that, then comparing our eschatologies will be fruitless as long as we're not speaking from a common language.
Mark T.
But I do see that our difference in position has to do with the fundamental nature of how you define the Great Tribulation.
Many people speak of the one 'seven' (or the seventieth 'seven') as being the time of the Great Tribulation or alternately the Tribulation period. That is not how I define it.
I define the Great Tribulation as Jesus defines it in the Olivet Discourse. Thus it begins at the midpoint as Daniel wrote from Gabriel, and the Great Tribulation lasts until the Day of the Lord. As such, since God cuts off (amputates) that time, the length of the Great Tribulation is nebulous. For reasons I will discuss later, I think a reasonable amount of time might be from several weeks to a few months.
- How are you defining the Great Tribulation?[/*:m:0ee7d]
- Why is the Great Tribulation so great?[/*:m:0ee7d]
- What kinds of things does the Great Tribulation include?[/*:m:0ee7d]
- What is not included in the Great Tribulation?[/*:m:0ee7d]
- Is Tribulation found in the Seals? Or is Wrath found in the Seals?[/*:m:0ee7d]
- Is either or both found in all the Seals or in just some or just one?[/*:m:0ee7d]
I'm not trying to play any games here, but for any real discussion we would have, we have to agree on our terms' definitions. If we cannot agree on that, then comparing our eschatologies will be fruitless as long as we're not speaking from a common language.
Mark T.
teleoisis said:I am not asking how many Churches Dispensationalists believe in. As a matter of fact, I'm not even sure what that question really means.
But I do see that our difference in position has to do with the fundamental nature of how you define the Great Tribulation.
Many people speak of the one 'seven' (or the seventieth 'seven') as being the time of the Great Tribulation or alternately the Tribulation period. That is not how I define it.
I define the Great Tribulation as Jesus defines it in the Olivet Discourse. Thus it begins at the midpoint as Daniel wrote from Gabriel, and the Great Tribulation lasts until the Day of the Lord. As such, since God cuts off (amputates) that time, the length of the Great Tribulation is nebulous. For reasons I will discuss later, I think a reasonable amount of time might be from several weeks to a few months.
I have answered all these and I will provide my answers here shortly, but I would like you to answer them so I can see how you define your terms. Then I will provide my answers and maybe we can discuss our differences before going into greater things.
- How are you defining the Great Tribulation?[/*:m:21f4e]
- Why is the Great Tribulation so great?[/*:m:21f4e]
- What kinds of things does the Great Tribulation include?[/*:m:21f4e]
- What is not included in the Great Tribulation?[/*:m:21f4e]
- Is Tribulation found in the Seals? Or is Wrath found in the Seals?[/*:m:21f4e]
- Is either or both found in all the Seals or in just some or just one?[/*:m:21f4e]
I'm not trying to play any games here, but for any real discussion we would have, we have to agree on our terms' definitions. If we cannot agree on that, then comparing our eschatologies will be fruitless as long as we're not speaking from a common language.
Mark T.
If you don't mind, I also would like to answer.
How are you defining the Great Tribulation?
We are in tribulation right now, and it will continue to get worse. It is "great" tribulation right now in Sudan, and other places where people die for their testimony. In Rev 7, the great crowd is said to come out of "the great tribulation." However, John sees this before the 70th week has even started! Therefore, I believe that God is telling us that there will be "great tribulation" on earth before the week has started. However, Jesus says that after the AOD, this time of trbiulation will be the greatest that has ever been, or ever will be. It will last for a while after the midpoint of the week, perhaps 3 years or so. The vials will finally make it impossible for the beast to carry out any kind of threat, thereby "shortening" his rule of death.
Why is the Great Tribulation so great?
It is so great because the devil hates us! And that hate is carried out trhough the antichrist. It is so great because the devil will have been cast out of heaven, and no longer able to accuse us before the Father. He is exceedingly angry, because he knows his time is short. God calls what He does "wrath," while He calls what the antichrist does as "tribulation."
What kinds of things does the Great Tribulation include?
I would like to say "time" of great tribulation, because I don't think we should call the entire week "the tribulation." "Jacob's trouble" or "70th week" are better terms, but them some can't see Jacob's trouble as being the entire 7 years either, even though Jacob had to work 7 years for his bride. Therefore, I like to refer to this week as the 70th week. If by "the great tribulation you mean the last 3 1/2 years approximately, the events will be the antichrist trying to kill every single Jew, and failing in that because God has protected the remnant, he will then try to kill every Christian (this would be those saved after the rapture). At this same time, God will be pouring out His bowls of wrath, which will have a dual purpose: to shorten the effective time the antichrist can pursure Christians and kill them, and to litterally bring the world to its knees.
What is not included in the Great Tribulation?
This is a difficult question, for it is unending! However, the seals are before the 70th week even starts, so definitely before the time of greatest tribulation, which will start at the AOD near the midpoint of the week. The week starts with the seventh seal. The trumpets then, are in the first 1260 days, so they too, are outside the time of greatest tribulation. I believe the AOD will take place very soon after the exact midpoint of the week. Maybe minutes, maybe hours or maybe a few days.
Is Tribulation found in the Seals? Or is Wrath found in the Seals?
It is a strange way to ask. One could ask, are the seals in the time of greatest tribulation? The answer would be no. However, there has been tribulation since the time of James and Stephen being put to death. Sometimes greater tribulation, and sometimes less. If you were a Jew, sometimes, very great tribulation. I believe the first seal was broken very soon after Jesus rose from the dead, at the time the infant church was hidden away in the upper room. Was there tribulation then? Absolutely! I do not see God's wrath starting until perhaps the 6th seal, which will be just before the 70th week starts. I just tend to think that wrath may be involved in a quake that shakes the entire planet. Anyway, it is written that wrath is involved there.
Is either or both found in all the Seals or in just some or just one?
I believe I have answered this. "Tribulation" or pressure put upon God's people, has been with us since the days of the early church: sometimes worse and sometimes not so bad or intense, and sometimes related to where you lived of whether or not you were a Christian or a Jew. Wrath is related to the end times. We see it first, I believe at the sixth seal. Therefore, since I believe the seventh seal starts the 70th week, I see the entire week, as related to God's wrath. However, it grows in intensity, as man refuses to repent. It really gets hot when the antichrist intends to wipe all humans off the face of the earth. (that is his underlying intention, and God knows it.) If he could kill all humans, then God would be proved to be a liar.
I disagree with your idea that the "Day of the Lord" follows the time of greatest tribulation. I believe the "Day of the Lord" includes the entire 70th week.
Coop
T
teleoisis
Guest
Thank you Coop. You are certainly welcome as anyone else is to answer these questions. I must say your answers were in the same vein as the kind of answers I expected.
Let me entertain JM's and whatever anyone else has before I put my answer in tomorrow evening. Once I do, I think you'll see why we differ in our respective eschatology. Perhaps if we can agree on the terms, we can build upon that rather than trying to shoot each other's theory full of holes.
If I can add a seventh question it would be this:
7. Who are the Elect of Matthew 24:31?
Mark T.
Let me entertain JM's and whatever anyone else has before I put my answer in tomorrow evening. Once I do, I think you'll see why we differ in our respective eschatology. Perhaps if we can agree on the terms, we can build upon that rather than trying to shoot each other's theory full of holes.
If I can add a seventh question it would be this:
7. Who are the Elect of Matthew 24:31?
Mark T.
teleoisis said:Thank you Coop. You are certainly welcome as anyone else is to answer these questions. I must say your answers were in the same vein as the kind of answers I expected.
Let me entertain JM's and whatever anyone else has before I put my answer in tomorrow evening. Once I do, I think you'll see why we differ in our respective eschatology. Perhaps if we can agree on the terms, we can build upon that rather than trying to shoot each other's theory full of holes.
If I can add a seventh question it would be this:
7. Who are the Elect of Matthew 24:31?
Mark T.
I believe the elect in Matt 24 is referring to the Jews. There are many verses that say He will bring them all back, but there is one verse that says He will do it in one day. I believe the day that he returns will be that day. I see the church coming with Him, since I believe that we will be raptured before the week starts. Angels search from one side of earth to the other side of heaven, to bring all Jews to Israel. This then, will be Jews like Daniel, who was told that at the end he would stand in his lot, and probably live Jews living around the world, that have not had any desire to go. Of course others see this as the rapture. I don't think raptured Christians will need an angel escort. Paul surely never mentioned any.
I think that before the angels gather the Jews, they have other business they must do first: the parable of the tares. I think they will take the evil, lawless people and jerk their spirits right out of their bodies, and throw them straight into hell. Then they will go get the Jews. However, there is little scripture to show when this parable of the tares happens. It does seem to happen before the sheep and goat judgement though, so I put it here.
Coop
T
teleoisis
Guest
I certainly agree that the "wheat and tares" has application to the rapture.
I also would like to thank you for your prompt reply.
If it's not too much, I'll wait until tomorrow evening to answer so as keep the door open for others to lend their view and study.
And hopefully, we can then discuss the reasons for our differences with the aim to edify and sharpen each other so as keep our eschatology in fidelity to the Bible.
Mark T.
I also would like to thank you for your prompt reply.
If it's not too much, I'll wait until tomorrow evening to answer so as keep the door open for others to lend their view and study.
And hopefully, we can then discuss the reasons for our differences with the aim to edify and sharpen each other so as keep our eschatology in fidelity to the Bible.
Mark T.
T
teleoisis
Guest
Oh well, I thought we'd have a response before now.
1. How do you define the Great Tribulation?
As Jesus does in the Olivet Discourse. In Matthew 24:15, Jesus begins by describing the midpoint Abomination described by the prophet Daniel. This time of Great Distress lasts until the Day of the Lord as described by its seminal event, the Sun/moon/star event which is associated with the Day of the Lord in the Old Testament.
This means the Great Tribulation is not the whole of the one 'seven.' To describe the one 'seven' as the Tribulation period is to confuse the one 'seven' with the lesser time Jesus describes. The Day of the Lord contains the first element of God's Wrath revealed in the Seal chronology in Revelation: fire. This then means the Great Tribulation is not 3 and 1/2 years long because God's Wrath occurs once this Day has begun. In that respect from a sequence-of-events perspective, the fifth Trumpet takes five months alone, so the Day of the Lord does not come on the last day of the one 'seven.'
2. Why is the Great Tribulation so great?
This is because of two laws which go into effect at the midpoint. Read Revelation 13:14b it actually describes the Abomination and why it is the seminal event of the one 'seven,' this image (idol) talks! The False Prophet is working hand in hand with the anti-Christ and it is he that institutes the terrible "Daniel" test: worship or die. If that were not bad enough, if you do not get an impression (mark), you cannot buy or sell. This means you cannot pay for food, your utilities, or even travel. Work is out of the question because you can't get paid.
Now put these two things together. If the image is broadcast or replicated so people will actually be faced with being confronted with it, the Christian will be stymied at home. Meanwhile, without being able to pay the mortgage, or the water bill, or pay for electricity or heat - the Christian faces the prospect of forced starvation. Yes it will be terrible for those with children! Imagine your whole family suffering like Terri Schiavo.
But what really makes this so terrible despite the assurance of death, unjustly or painfully slow - is its application across the world within the grasp of the anti-Christ and the False Prophet. The Southern Kingdom may escape, but if they the combined Muslim world, they aren't saved as it is. The Kingdom in the East may escape as well, but the communists there may institute their own form of oppression and persecution.
3. What kinds of things does the Great Tribulation include?
The two laws of Revelation 13:15-17. This is oppression and acute persecution on a scale never seen before.
4. What is not included in the Great Tribulation?
God's Wrath is not part of the Great Tribulation.
5. Is Tribulation found in the Seals? Or is Wrath found in the Seals?
The Tribulation is not found in the Seals per se. While many would say all the Seals contain God's Wrath, I would beg to differ on the scale of destruction wrought by the first four horsemen. They are seen in the Seal chronology at their inception. Later in Zechariah, he sees them exiting the heavenly realm and acting as spirits going to work in the world. I would say that these four make conditions ripe for the rapid advancement of the anti-Christ. Jesus loosely describes the effects of the first four horsemen in the beginning of Mt 24 and concludes by calling them the beginning of birthpains.
6. Is either or both found in all the Seals or in just some or just one?
To continue, if the first four Seals are but the beginning of birthpains, then the fifth Seal would indicate there is a provision by God for those who suffer Tribulation. There is no world event to latch the fifth Seal upon, it could come before the start of the one 'seven,' during the first half as the anti-Christ wages war on the Saints for 42 months, or at the time of the Great Tribulation which begins the second half of the one 'seven.' But the main thing to remember is their number is not complete. That will only happen after all the martyrs are killed, and the last two would be the two Witnesses.
The sixth Seal does not contain real Wrath. True the ones hiding from God say it is coming, but are they correct? I would say no. The very next thing coming is NOT God's Wrath, but Jesus for the Church. Now God's Wrath follows the rapture, but it is NOT the next thing that will happen, nor does it happen with the events described with the sixth Seal.
Only when the seventh Seal is broken, does true Wrath of Biblical proportions begin and it starts as I said before with fire. Blood, fire and smoke are integral parts of the Day of the Lord.
Now in support of this is Daniel 9:27. If Gabriel says that God has decreed desolations upon the desolator - Where are those decrees? I would say they are written on the Scroll with the seven Seals. And like scrolls that are sealed throughout the Hebrew world, they can only be unrolled when the last seal is broken. Thus, the Scroll cannot go into effect until the seventh Seal is broken and that is exactly what is seen in the Seal chronology.
7. Who are the elect of Mt 24:31?
The Elect are those who have been chosen by God. This select group would include the Church as we are called out of the world and so chosen by God to be His. Peter and Paul both use the word "elect" to address their churches. In addition, the idea of selecting allows for OT Saints in Paradise to be called out as well. Isaiah 49:6 says Jesus unites Jew and Gentile, and viewing the Elect as having both OT and NT Saints does that. In addition, Paul indicates in Romans 2:14-15 that God choses some others from nations, tribes and languages that could not have heard about Him, Jerusalem, or Jesus. This allows the Great Multitude which can be thought of as the result of Jesus' gathering to be comprised of all nations, tribes, people, and languages.
Mark T.
1. How do you define the Great Tribulation?
As Jesus does in the Olivet Discourse. In Matthew 24:15, Jesus begins by describing the midpoint Abomination described by the prophet Daniel. This time of Great Distress lasts until the Day of the Lord as described by its seminal event, the Sun/moon/star event which is associated with the Day of the Lord in the Old Testament.
This means the Great Tribulation is not the whole of the one 'seven.' To describe the one 'seven' as the Tribulation period is to confuse the one 'seven' with the lesser time Jesus describes. The Day of the Lord contains the first element of God's Wrath revealed in the Seal chronology in Revelation: fire. This then means the Great Tribulation is not 3 and 1/2 years long because God's Wrath occurs once this Day has begun. In that respect from a sequence-of-events perspective, the fifth Trumpet takes five months alone, so the Day of the Lord does not come on the last day of the one 'seven.'
2. Why is the Great Tribulation so great?
This is because of two laws which go into effect at the midpoint. Read Revelation 13:14b it actually describes the Abomination and why it is the seminal event of the one 'seven,' this image (idol) talks! The False Prophet is working hand in hand with the anti-Christ and it is he that institutes the terrible "Daniel" test: worship or die. If that were not bad enough, if you do not get an impression (mark), you cannot buy or sell. This means you cannot pay for food, your utilities, or even travel. Work is out of the question because you can't get paid.
Now put these two things together. If the image is broadcast or replicated so people will actually be faced with being confronted with it, the Christian will be stymied at home. Meanwhile, without being able to pay the mortgage, or the water bill, or pay for electricity or heat - the Christian faces the prospect of forced starvation. Yes it will be terrible for those with children! Imagine your whole family suffering like Terri Schiavo.
But what really makes this so terrible despite the assurance of death, unjustly or painfully slow - is its application across the world within the grasp of the anti-Christ and the False Prophet. The Southern Kingdom may escape, but if they the combined Muslim world, they aren't saved as it is. The Kingdom in the East may escape as well, but the communists there may institute their own form of oppression and persecution.
3. What kinds of things does the Great Tribulation include?
The two laws of Revelation 13:15-17. This is oppression and acute persecution on a scale never seen before.
4. What is not included in the Great Tribulation?
God's Wrath is not part of the Great Tribulation.
5. Is Tribulation found in the Seals? Or is Wrath found in the Seals?
The Tribulation is not found in the Seals per se. While many would say all the Seals contain God's Wrath, I would beg to differ on the scale of destruction wrought by the first four horsemen. They are seen in the Seal chronology at their inception. Later in Zechariah, he sees them exiting the heavenly realm and acting as spirits going to work in the world. I would say that these four make conditions ripe for the rapid advancement of the anti-Christ. Jesus loosely describes the effects of the first four horsemen in the beginning of Mt 24 and concludes by calling them the beginning of birthpains.
6. Is either or both found in all the Seals or in just some or just one?
To continue, if the first four Seals are but the beginning of birthpains, then the fifth Seal would indicate there is a provision by God for those who suffer Tribulation. There is no world event to latch the fifth Seal upon, it could come before the start of the one 'seven,' during the first half as the anti-Christ wages war on the Saints for 42 months, or at the time of the Great Tribulation which begins the second half of the one 'seven.' But the main thing to remember is their number is not complete. That will only happen after all the martyrs are killed, and the last two would be the two Witnesses.
The sixth Seal does not contain real Wrath. True the ones hiding from God say it is coming, but are they correct? I would say no. The very next thing coming is NOT God's Wrath, but Jesus for the Church. Now God's Wrath follows the rapture, but it is NOT the next thing that will happen, nor does it happen with the events described with the sixth Seal.
Only when the seventh Seal is broken, does true Wrath of Biblical proportions begin and it starts as I said before with fire. Blood, fire and smoke are integral parts of the Day of the Lord.
Now in support of this is Daniel 9:27. If Gabriel says that God has decreed desolations upon the desolator - Where are those decrees? I would say they are written on the Scroll with the seven Seals. And like scrolls that are sealed throughout the Hebrew world, they can only be unrolled when the last seal is broken. Thus, the Scroll cannot go into effect until the seventh Seal is broken and that is exactly what is seen in the Seal chronology.
7. Who are the elect of Mt 24:31?
The Elect are those who have been chosen by God. This select group would include the Church as we are called out of the world and so chosen by God to be His. Peter and Paul both use the word "elect" to address their churches. In addition, the idea of selecting allows for OT Saints in Paradise to be called out as well. Isaiah 49:6 says Jesus unites Jew and Gentile, and viewing the Elect as having both OT and NT Saints does that. In addition, Paul indicates in Romans 2:14-15 that God choses some others from nations, tribes and languages that could not have heard about Him, Jerusalem, or Jesus. This allows the Great Multitude which can be thought of as the result of Jesus' gathering to be comprised of all nations, tribes, people, and languages.
Mark T.
Good try, Mark! : -))
However, in doing so, I think you have made a hodgepodge of the chronological order of Revelation. I agree with you that the scroll is sealed with seven seals, and cannot be opened (probably to reveal the trumpets) until all seven seals are broken.
The first error I see is the first seal. The rider on the white horse does not ride with the other three, but rides alone. He and the white horse represents the infant church of Jesus Christ. There is nothing evil about him or in his description. Then when you read about the fourth seal, you find a key, and see that the red, black and pale horseman ride together. When is the first seal broken? If you read closely, you will see that Jesus gets the scroll into his hands just about the moment that he arrives in heaven, having just risen from the dead. John sees the throne room without the Son, and then sees the Son arrive, appearing as a lamb slain. Then notice how soon Jesus gets the scroll into His hands!
We are agreed about the time of greatest tribulation being just after the midpoint, at the AOD.
Mark said,
I cannot even understand what you are trying to say here. Apparently you are trying to have the day of the Lord start in the seals, and that again, is hodgepodge. Where is the fire you speak of? You say God's wrath occurs once the Day of the Lord (DOL) begins. But where do you see the DOL beginning? I say it, the DOL, is synonomous with the 70th week, and begins with the seventh seal, with His wrath beginning to show in the 6th seal. The people that go through the sixth seal, and earthquake, and cosmic signs, recognize God's wrath. I think we can do no less! It is impossible to have any trumpet sound until the seventh seal is broken, so the trumpets must then, come after the seventh seal. If one trumpet takes five months, why not each of them? If each trumpet took five months, and there was a one month "reprieve" before the next trumpet, then from the sounding of one trumpet to the sounding of the next would be six months. Since the week starts with the seventh seal, and not the first trumpet, we have all seven trumpets in the first half of the week. 7 trumpets times 6 months = 42 months for the trumpets. How amazing! The first half of the week is 42 months long! That would make the seventh trumpet at the exact midpoint of the week - exactly where John puts it. Good try, Mark! : -))
However, in doing so, I think you have made a hodgepodge of the chronological order of Revelation. I agree with you that the scroll is sealed with seven seals, and cannot be opened (probably to reveal the trumpets) until all seven seals are broken.
The first error I see is the first seal. The rider on the white horse does not ride with the other three, but rides alone. He and the white horse represents the infant church of Jesus Christ. There is nothing evil about him or in his description. Then when you read about the fourth seal, you find a key, and see that the red, black and pale horseman ride together. When is the first seal broken? If you read closely, you will see that Jesus gets the scroll into his hands just about the moment that he arrives in heaven, having just risen from the dead. John sees the throne room without the Son, and then sees the Son arrive, appearing as a lamb slain. Then notice how soon Jesus gets the scroll into His hands!
We are agreed about the time of greatest tribulation being just after the midpoint, at the AOD.
Mark said,
I cannot even understand what you are trying to say here. Apparently you are trying to have the day of the Lord start in the seals, and that again, is hodgepodge. Where is the fire you speak of? You say God's wrath occurs once the Day of the Lord (DOL) begins. But where do you see the DOL beginning? I say it, the DOL is synonomous with the 70th week, and begins with the seventh seal, with His wrath beginning to show in the 6th seal. The people that go through the sixth seal, and earthquake, and cosmic signs, recognize God's wrath. I think we can do no less! It is impossible to have any trumpet sound until the seventh seal is broken, so the trumpets must then, come after the seventh seal. If one trumpet takes five months, why not each of them? If each trumpet took five months, and there was a one month "reprieve" before the next trumpet, then from the sounding of one trumpet to the sounding of the next would be six months. Since the week starts with the seventh seal, and not the first trumpet, we have all seven trumpets in the first half of the week. 7 trumpets times 6 months = 42 months for the trumpets. How amazing! The first half of the week is 42 months long! That would make the seventh trumpet at the exact midpoint of the week - exactly where John puts it.
2. Why is the Great Tribulation so great?
We are pretty much in agreement here. The intent of the antichrist is to wipe humanity off the face of the earth. He gets a good start, but is brought to a halt by the vials.
3. What kinds of things does the Great Tribulation include?
Your answer was the two laws. If you are looking at what the antichrist is doing, I can agree with you. However, the way this question is worded, it gives the idea of a space of time. This time of greatest tribulation starts at the AOD (abomination of desolation) and continues until the antichrist is rendered helpless by the vials. They are, in effect, "shortening" the time that the antichrist can continue his warfare on humanity. However, it will be a good portion of the 3 1/2 years. What else is happening during this same time: the second half of the week? Of course, while the antichrist is a killing machine, God is having the vials poured out. It is His wrath, combatting the wrath of Satan. In fact, I am convinced that one of the reasons for God's wrath, is the intent of the antichrist: to kill all of mankind, so that there would be no millenial Kingdom.
4. What is not included in the Great Tribulation?
Your answer was "God's Wrath is not part of the Great Tribulation."
Again, if you mean "what is not included in what the antichrist is doing?" I would agree with you. But again, what the antichrist is doing takes time: the time in the second half of the 70th week. What is God doing in that time? He is pouring out His wrath. His wrath is not part of the tribulation caused by the antichrist, it is to combat it. However, God's wrath will cause much "pressure" on the people that have taken the mark. So we could say that God's wrath is causing some tribulation also.
5. Is Tribulation found in the Seals? Or is Wrath found in the Seals?
Definately, the time of the greatest tribulation, i.e. after the AOD, is long after all the seals have been broken. However, there is tribulation going on all through the church age, while these three horsemen do their deeds. (Seals 2-4)
6. Is either or both found in all the Seals or in just some or just one?
Here you say "The sixth Seal does not contain real Wrath." Again, I just have to disagree. Those people that lived through it, recognized the beginning of the DOL, and so said that it was God's wrath. Why should we disagree with them?
Then you say, "The very next thing coming is NOT God's Wrath, but Jesus for the Church." I guess you are saying this is right after the sixth seal. Well, why not right before the 6th seal? Why not at the same time? Actually, I do believe the rapture of the church will take place very near the sixth seal. However, I seem to get the idea that you believe it is the second coming that will happen here. Since this is even before the 70th week, and before the time of greatest tribulation, which Jesus says He will come after ("immediately after the tribulation of those days"), then this is about 7 years before the actual second coming, when Jesus comes on the white horse.
You said, " The very next thing coming is NOT God's Wrath, but Jesus for the Church." What really does follow the 6th seal, in the book? The sealing of the 144,000, in preparation for the 70th week and the DOL. Then John sees the raptured church, then the seventh seal is broken, starting the 70th week, and the DOL.
You said, "Only when the seventh Seal is broken, does true Wrath of Biblical proportions begin and it starts as I said before with fire. Blood, fire and smoke are integral parts of the Day of the Lord. "
The seventh seal is broken very soon after the sixth seal, and the wrath of God was believed by those there, to have started with the sixth seal. Again, why should we disagree? And where is the fire at the 7th seal?
7. Who are the elect of Mt 24:31?
You include the church here, long after you have stated where you think the rapture will take place. Please notice that this event in Matt happens after the time of greatest tribulation. Where do we see that in Revelation? John shows us where Jesus comes back, so we don't even have to guess: it is chapter 19. This is 3 1/2 years after the AOD, no matter if you count days, months or years. The 70th week is finished at the 7th vial. So there will be 3 1/2 years and more, between the AOD and Jesus return.
Since the church cannot have been raptured at the sixth seal, and then "collected" by angels after the week had finished, the elect must then be some other group. I believe it is the Jews.
Coop
However, in doing so, I think you have made a hodgepodge of the chronological order of Revelation. I agree with you that the scroll is sealed with seven seals, and cannot be opened (probably to reveal the trumpets) until all seven seals are broken.
The first error I see is the first seal. The rider on the white horse does not ride with the other three, but rides alone. He and the white horse represents the infant church of Jesus Christ. There is nothing evil about him or in his description. Then when you read about the fourth seal, you find a key, and see that the red, black and pale horseman ride together. When is the first seal broken? If you read closely, you will see that Jesus gets the scroll into his hands just about the moment that he arrives in heaven, having just risen from the dead. John sees the throne room without the Son, and then sees the Son arrive, appearing as a lamb slain. Then notice how soon Jesus gets the scroll into His hands!
We are agreed about the time of greatest tribulation being just after the midpoint, at the AOD.
Mark said,
The Day of the Lord contains the first element of God's Wrath revealed in the Seal chronology in Revelation: fire. This then means the Great Tribulation is not 3 and 1/2 years long because God's Wrath occurs once this Day has begun. In that respect from a sequence-of-events perspective, the fifth Trumpet takes five months alone, so the Day of the Lord does not come on the last day of the one 'seven.'
I cannot even understand what you are trying to say here. Apparently you are trying to have the day of the Lord start in the seals, and that again, is hodgepodge. Where is the fire you speak of? You say God's wrath occurs once the Day of the Lord (DOL) begins. But where do you see the DOL beginning? I say it, the DOL, is synonomous with the 70th week, and begins with the seventh seal, with His wrath beginning to show in the 6th seal. The people that go through the sixth seal, and earthquake, and cosmic signs, recognize God's wrath. I think we can do no less! It is impossible to have any trumpet sound until the seventh seal is broken, so the trumpets must then, come after the seventh seal. If one trumpet takes five months, why not each of them? If each trumpet took five months, and there was a one month "reprieve" before the next trumpet, then from the sounding of one trumpet to the sounding of the next would be six months. Since the week starts with the seventh seal, and not the first trumpet, we have all seven trumpets in the first half of the week. 7 trumpets times 6 months = 42 months for the trumpets. How amazing! The first half of the week is 42 months long! That would make the seventh trumpet at the exact midpoint of the week - exactly where John puts it. Good try, Mark! : -))
However, in doing so, I think you have made a hodgepodge of the chronological order of Revelation. I agree with you that the scroll is sealed with seven seals, and cannot be opened (probably to reveal the trumpets) until all seven seals are broken.
The first error I see is the first seal. The rider on the white horse does not ride with the other three, but rides alone. He and the white horse represents the infant church of Jesus Christ. There is nothing evil about him or in his description. Then when you read about the fourth seal, you find a key, and see that the red, black and pale horseman ride together. When is the first seal broken? If you read closely, you will see that Jesus gets the scroll into his hands just about the moment that he arrives in heaven, having just risen from the dead. John sees the throne room without the Son, and then sees the Son arrive, appearing as a lamb slain. Then notice how soon Jesus gets the scroll into His hands!
We are agreed about the time of greatest tribulation being just after the midpoint, at the AOD.
Mark said,
The Day of the Lord contains the first element of God's Wrath revealed in the Seal chronology in Revelation: fire. This then means the Great Tribulation is not 3 and 1/2 years long because God's Wrath occurs once this Day has begun. In that respect from a sequence-of-events perspective, the fifth Trumpet takes five months alone, so the Day of the Lord does not come on the last day of the one 'seven.'
I cannot even understand what you are trying to say here. Apparently you are trying to have the day of the Lord start in the seals, and that again, is hodgepodge. Where is the fire you speak of? You say God's wrath occurs once the Day of the Lord (DOL) begins. But where do you see the DOL beginning? I say it, the DOL is synonomous with the 70th week, and begins with the seventh seal, with His wrath beginning to show in the 6th seal. The people that go through the sixth seal, and earthquake, and cosmic signs, recognize God's wrath. I think we can do no less! It is impossible to have any trumpet sound until the seventh seal is broken, so the trumpets must then, come after the seventh seal. If one trumpet takes five months, why not each of them? If each trumpet took five months, and there was a one month "reprieve" before the next trumpet, then from the sounding of one trumpet to the sounding of the next would be six months. Since the week starts with the seventh seal, and not the first trumpet, we have all seven trumpets in the first half of the week. 7 trumpets times 6 months = 42 months for the trumpets. How amazing! The first half of the week is 42 months long! That would make the seventh trumpet at the exact midpoint of the week - exactly where John puts it.
2. Why is the Great Tribulation so great?
We are pretty much in agreement here. The intent of the antichrist is to wipe humanity off the face of the earth. He gets a good start, but is brought to a halt by the vials.
3. What kinds of things does the Great Tribulation include?
Your answer was the two laws. If you are looking at what the antichrist is doing, I can agree with you. However, the way this question is worded, it gives the idea of a space of time. This time of greatest tribulation starts at the AOD (abomination of desolation) and continues until the antichrist is rendered helpless by the vials. They are, in effect, "shortening" the time that the antichrist can continue his warfare on humanity. However, it will be a good portion of the 3 1/2 years. What else is happening during this same time: the second half of the week? Of course, while the antichrist is a killing machine, God is having the vials poured out. It is His wrath, combatting the wrath of Satan. In fact, I am convinced that one of the reasons for God's wrath, is the intent of the antichrist: to kill all of mankind, so that there would be no millenial Kingdom.
4. What is not included in the Great Tribulation?
Your answer was "God's Wrath is not part of the Great Tribulation."
Again, if you mean "what is not included in what the antichrist is doing?" I would agree with you. But again, what the antichrist is doing takes time: the time in the second half of the 70th week. What is God doing in that time? He is pouring out His wrath. His wrath is not part of the tribulation caused by the antichrist, it is to combat it. However, God's wrath will cause much "pressure" on the people that have taken the mark. So we could say that God's wrath is causing some tribulation also.
5. Is Tribulation found in the Seals? Or is Wrath found in the Seals?
Definately, the time of the greatest tribulation, i.e. after the AOD, is long after all the seals have been broken. However, there is tribulation going on all through the church age, while these three horsemen do their deeds. (Seals 2-4)
6. Is either or both found in all the Seals or in just some or just one?
Here you say "The sixth Seal does not contain real Wrath." Again, I just have to disagree. Those people that lived through it, recognized the beginning of the DOL, and so said that it was God's wrath. Why should we disagree with them?
Then you say, "The very next thing coming is NOT God's Wrath, but Jesus for the Church." I guess you are saying this is right after the sixth seal. Well, why not right before the 6th seal? Why not at the same time? Actually, I do believe the rapture of the church will take place very near the sixth seal. However, I seem to get the idea that you believe it is the second coming that will happen here. Since this is even before the 70th week, and before the time of greatest tribulation, which Jesus says He will come after ("immediately after the tribulation of those days"), then this is about 7 years before the actual second coming, when Jesus comes on the white horse.
You said, " The very next thing coming is NOT God's Wrath, but Jesus for the Church." What really does follow the 6th seal, in the book? The sealing of the 144,000, in preparation for the 70th week and the DOL. Then John sees the raptured church, then the seventh seal is broken, starting the 70th week, and the DOL.
You said, "Only when the seventh Seal is broken, does true Wrath of Biblical proportions begin and it starts as I said before with fire. Blood, fire and smoke are integral parts of the Day of the Lord. "
The seventh seal is broken very soon after the sixth seal, and the wrath of God was believed by those there, to have started with the sixth seal. Again, why should we disagree? And where is the fire at the 7th seal?
7. Who are the elect of Mt 24:31?
You include the church here, long after you have stated where you think the rapture will take place. Please notice that this event in Matt happens after the time of greatest tribulation. Where do we see that in Revelation? John shows us where Jesus comes back, so we don't even have to guess: it is chapter 19. This is 3 1/2 years after the AOD, no matter if you count days, months or years. The 70th week is finished at the 7th vial. So there will be 3 1/2 years and more, between the AOD and Jesus return.
Since the church cannot have been raptured at the sixth seal, and then "collected" by angels after the week had finished, the elect must then be some other group. I believe it is the Jews.
Coop
T
teleoisis
Guest
Coop,
I'm going to break up my reply by categories in separate threads so we don't take this one over with a bunch of unrelated stuff. We can talk about the first Horseman, the Great Tribulation and the Day of the Lord, but right now, I have to do my taxes - Ceasar demands to have his coin back.
Remember the IRS really means theIRS, and they do think it's all theirs; they just let me keep some of it...
Mark T.
I'm going to break up my reply by categories in separate threads so we don't take this one over with a bunch of unrelated stuff. We can talk about the first Horseman, the Great Tribulation and the Day of the Lord, but right now, I have to do my taxes - Ceasar demands to have his coin back.
Remember the IRS really means theIRS, and they do think it's all theirs; they just let me keep some of it...
Mark T.
J
Jay T
Guest
Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.teleoisis said:7. Who are the Elect of Matthew 24:31?
Mark T.
teleoisis said:Who are the Elect of Matthew 24:31?
God has one elect people. In the OT the elect [speaking in general terms] were gather from national/ethnic Israel, in the NT the elect are gathered from all nations. One elect people of God. Who are the elect of Matt. 24:31? God's elect. The Bible doesn't make a distinction between who the elect are, neither should we. For they are not all Israel which are Israel...
J
Jay T
Guest
I beg to differ.JM said:teleoisis said:Who are the Elect of Matthew 24:31?
God has one elect people. In the OT the elect [speaking in general terms] were gather from national/ethnic Israel, in the NT the elect are gathered from all nations. One elect people of God. Who are the elect of Matt. 24:31? God's elect. The Bible doesn't make a distinction between who the elect are, neither should we. For they are not all Israel which are Israel...
The Bible 'does' tell us who God's elect are.
They are called the saints, and who is to say that the saints are not true Christians ?
And....they are identified in the Bible....
Revelation 14:12 "Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus".
These people have 2 identifying marks:
#1.) They keep all 10 commandments of God, which is found in Exodus 20:3-17.....
#2.) They have the same faith Jesus Christ had, relying totally upon God's power, to enable them to keep all 10 commandments.
Revelation 12:17 "And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make [WAR] with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ".
And, because they keep the commandments of God, thru the power of grace, which God freely bestows......satan hates them and goes to war against them, thru slander (calling them a 'cult'), and other various ways to discredit them in the eyes of others.
J
Jay T
Guest
I beg to differ.JM said:teleoisis said:Who are the Elect of Matthew 24:31?
God has one elect people. In the OT the elect [speaking in general terms] were gather from national/ethnic Israel, in the NT the elect are gathered from all nations. One elect people of God. Who are the elect of Matt. 24:31? God's elect. The Bible doesn't make a distinction between who the elect are, neither should we. For they are not all Israel which are Israel...
The Bible 'does' tell us who God's elect are.
They are called the saints, and who is to say that the saints are not true Christians ?
And....they are identified in the Bible....
Revelation 14:12 "Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus".
These people have 2 identifying marks:
#1.) They keep all 10 commandments of God, which is found in Exodus 20:3-17.....
#2.) They have the same faith Jesus Christ had, relying totally upon God's power, to enable them to keep all 10 commandments.
Revelation 12:17 "And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make [WAR] with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ".
And, because they keep the commandments of God, thru the power of grace, which God freely bestows......satan hates them and goes to war against them, thru slander (calling them a 'cult'), and other various ways to discredit them in the eyes of others.