Biblical Literalism

[Free]

No, the Bible does not allow polygamy. Both of you are confused between the mention of things the way they were and condoning. In the very least with slavery, you guys are totally ignoring what Paul says of the NT. And as I stated, the correct understanding is shown in history through the acts of the early Christians.

 

[kenmaynard]

No, the Bible does not allow polygamy. Both of you are confused between the mention of things the way they were and condoning. In the very least with slavery, you guys are totally ignoring what Paul says of the NT. And as I stated, the correct understanding is shown in history through the acts of the early Christians.

Let us look at some of the verses from the Old Testament that allow polygamy:

In Exodus 21:10, a man can marry an infinite amount of women without any limits to how many he can marry.

In 2 Samuel 5:13; 1 Chronicles 3:1-9, 14:3, King David had six wives and numerous concubines.

In 1 Kings 11:3, King Solomon had 700 wives and 300 concubines.

In 2 Chronicles 11:21, King Solomon's son Rehoboam had 18 wives and 60 concubines.

In Deuteronomy 21:15 "If a man has two wives, and he loves one but not the other, and both bear him sons...."

There are a lot more verses from the Old Testament that allow polygamy, but I think that the above are sufficient enough to prove my point.

 

[Free]

No, the Bible does not allow polygamy. Both of you are confused between the mention of things the way they were and condoning. In the very least with slavery, you guys are totally ignoring what Paul says of the NT. And as I stated, the correct understanding is shown in history through the acts of the early Christians.

Let us look at some of the verses from the Old Testament that allow polygamy:

In Exodus 21:10, a man can marry an infinite amount of women without any limits to how many he can marry.

In 2 Samuel 5:13; 1 Chronicles 3:1-9, 14:3, King David had six wives and numerous concubines.

In 1 Kings 11:3, King Solomon had 700 wives and 300 concubines.

In 2 Chronicles 11:21, King Solomon's son Rehoboam had 18 wives and 60 concubines.

In Deuteronomy 21:15 "If a man has two wives, and he loves one but not the other, and both bear him sons...."

There are a lot more verses from the Old Testament that allow polygamy, but I think that the above are sufficient enough to prove my point.

No, actually it is not. None of the verses condone polygamy, properly understood. The only two relevant verses are Ex 21:10 and Deut 21:15, so I will discuss those.

The others are, as I mentioned previously, only records of the way things were for some men but that in no way whatsoever means they condone polygamy. I am quite certain you would agree that if a newspaper reports about a murder or child rape that that in no way means the newspaper or any of its writers support murder or child rape. You really should use the same standard in understanding the Bible as you would a newspaper.

The very clear standard, set out right at the beginning of Genesis and supported throughout the Bible, is that monogamy is God's plan for marriage. The first time polygamy is mentioned is with Lamech, who was a very evil man.

Exodus 21:10 is in regards to slaves. It says that "If [a man] takes an additional wife"; this is concession by God towards man's sin and propensity for sexual sin. Similarly, Deut 21:15 states "If a man has two wives"; again, polygamy is merely tolerated.

Even in regards to kings, Deut 17:17 states that "He must not acquire many wives for himself so that his heart won't so that his heart won't go astray." But that is precisely what happens to Solomon and David.

Polygamy is never prescribed or approved of, it is merely tolerated. Monogamy is consistently the ideal the Bible puts forward.

 

[kenmaynard]

No, the Bible does not allow polygamy. Both of you are confused between the mention of things the way they were and condoning. In the very least with slavery, you guys are totally ignoring what Paul says of the NT. And as I stated, the correct understanding is shown in history through the acts of the early Christians.

Let us look at some of the verses from the Old Testament that allow polygamy:

In Exodus 21:10, a man can marry an infinite amount of women without any limits to how many he can marry.

In 2 Samuel 5:13; 1 Chronicles 3:1-9, 14:3, King David had six wives and numerous concubines.

In 1 Kings 11:3, King Solomon had 700 wives and 300 concubines.

In 2 Chronicles 11:21, King Solomon's son Rehoboam had 18 wives and 60 concubines.

In Deuteronomy 21:15 "If a man has two wives, and he loves one but not the other, and both bear him sons...."

There are a lot more verses from the Old Testament that allow polygamy, but I think that the above are sufficient enough to prove my point.

No, actually it is not. None of the verses condone polygamy, properly understood. The only two relevant verses are Ex 21:10 and Deut 21:15, so I will discuss those.

The others are, as I mentioned previously, only records of the way things were for some men but that in no way whatsoever means they condone polygamy. I am quite certain you would agree that if a newspaper reports about a murder or child rape that that in no way means the newspaper or any of its writers support murder or child rape. You really should use the same standard in understanding the Bible as you would a newspaper.

The very clear standard, set out right at the beginning of Genesis and supported throughout the Bible, is that monogamy is God's plan for marriage. The first time polygamy is mentioned is with Lamech, who was a very evil man.

Exodus 21:10 is in regards to slaves. It says that "If [a man] takes an additional wife"; this is concession by God towards man's sin and propensity for sexual sin. Similarly, Deut 21:15 states "If a man has two wives"; again, polygamy is merely tolerated.

Even in regards to kings, Deut 17:17 states that "He must not acquire many wives for himself so that his heart won't so that his heart won't go astray." But that is precisely what happens to Solomon and David.

Polygamy is never prescribed or approved of, it is merely tolerated. Monogamy is consistently the ideal the Bible puts forward.

No where in the bible is polygamy prohibited, but that doesn't matter as even you concede that it is tolerated. Also "He must not acquire many wives for himself so that his heart won't go astray" That means you can have as many wives as you can handle.

So polygamy should be legal.

 

[Free]

No where in the bible is polygamy prohibited, but that doesn't matter as even you concede that it is tolerated. Also "He must not acquire many wives for himself so that his heart won't go astray" That means you can have as many wives as you can handle.

So polygamy should be legal.

What? No. The verse is saying that if he acquires multiple wives, his heart will go astray. The obvious implication is that he is to have one wife so that his heart will not go astray. As I have stated, just because God tolerates it doesn't mean that it is okay. It is still sin since God's standard is monogamy and clearly not okay.

In the NT, the sin of adultery implicitly prohibits polygamy, not to mention the way marriage is talked about.

 

[kenmaynard]

No where in the bible is polygamy prohibited, but that doesn't matter as even you concede that it is tolerated. Also "He must not acquire many wives for himself so that his heart won't go astray" That means you can have as many wives as you can handle.

So polygamy should be legal.

What? No. The verse is saying that if he acquires multiple wives, his heart will go astray. The obvious implication is that he is to have one wife so that his heart will not go astray. As I have stated, just because God tolerates it doesn't mean that it is okay. It is still sin since God's standard is monogamy and clearly not okay.

In the NT, the sin of adultery implicitly prohibits polygamy, not to mention the way marriage is talked about.

We disagree on what those passages say. I read it as have as many wives as you want in moderation or don't get greedy with your multiple wives. Also adultery is sex outside of marriage. If you are married to multiple women it isn't adultery.

 

[Free]

Also adultery is sex outside of marriage. If you are married to multiple women it isn't adultery.

Matt 19:8-9, "8 He said to them, Because of your hardness of heart Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. 9 And I say to you: whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery."

If divorcing one's wife, apart from sexual immorality, and then marrying another is adultery, how can marrying another while still being married to the first not be adultery?

From the beginning divorce was not in God's intentions for marriage and neither was polygamy. Divorce was allowed because of the hardness of their hearts, just as was polygamy.

 

[kenmaynard]

Also adultery is sex outside of marriage. If you are married to multiple women it isn't adultery.

Matt 19:8-9, "8 He said to them, Because of your hardness of heart Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. 9 And I say to you: whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery."

If divorcing one's wife, apart from sexual immorality, and then marrying another is adultery, how can marrying another while still being married to the first not be adultery?

From the beginning divorce was not in God's intentions for marriage and neither was polygamy. Divorce was allowed because of the hardness of their hearts, just as was polygamy.

Well so we agree they are allowed.

 

[Free]

What? No. Why is this so hard for you to understand? Divorce is allowed under one condition but even then, polygamy is always ruled out since it would always be adultery, which is disallowed. Polygamy was always wrong, going against God's design for marriage, but it was tolerated for a time because of the hardness of men's hearts. But the NT makes it clear that that is not to be the case anymore.

So, to bring this back on topic, taking the Bible literally does not result in allowing polygamy nor slavery.

 

[kenmaynard]

What? No. Why is this so hard for you to understand? Divorce is allowed under one condition but even then, polygamy is always ruled out since it would always be adultery, which is disallowed. Polygamy was always wrong, going against God's design for marriage, but it was tolerated for a time because of the hardness of men's hearts. But the NT makes it clear that that is not to be the case anymore.

So, to bring this back on topic, taking the Bible literally does not result in allowing polygamy nor slavery.

If taken literally the bible allows both slavery and polygamy. Jesus didn't come to change the law. So if it was allowed in the OT it is allowed in the NT. You do what you accuse many other of doing. That is picking and choosing what you want to believe out of the bible. As for the harness of men's hearts they are as hard today, if not harder, than the times in the bible.

In Matthew 22:24-28, the Jews referred to Deuteronomy 25:5 from the Old Testament where it states that if a woman's husband dies, and she didn't have any kids from him, then she must marry his brother regardless whether he had a wife or not. When the Jews brought this situation up to Jesus in Matthew 22:24-28, Jesus did not prohibit at all for the childless widow to marry her husband's brother (even if he were married). Instead, Jesus replied to them by saying that we do not marry in heaven, and we will be like angels in heaven (Matthew 22:30).

So in other words, if Jesus allowed for a widow to marry her former husband's brother even if he were married, then this negates the Christians' claim about the Bible prohibiting polygamy. A man can be one flesh with more than one woman. In the case of Matthew 22:24-28, the man can be one flesh with his wife, and one flesh with his deceased brother's wife. Also keep in mind that Exodus 21:10 allows a man to marry an infinite amount of women, and Deuteronomy 21:15 allows a man to marry more than one wife.

 

[wavy]

Exodus 21:10 is in regards to slaves. It says that "If [a man] takes an additional wife"; this is concession by God towards man's sin and propensity for sexual sin. Similarly, Deut 21:15 states "If a man has two wives"; again, polygamy is merely tolerated.

The very purpose of law, especially Israelite law, is to guard against wrongdoing, not sanction or condone it, and these latter are exactly what is taking place here. These passages just reflect the cultural norm of the time, and if God was truly responsible in their enactment, he condoned both polygamy and slavery. To 'condone' means to connive at, to overlook as if it is not wrong. What you're suggesting -- that God is regulating sin, especially sexual sin -- completely goes against the prudish character of the God of the bible. This is a battle you cannot win by any Judaeo-Christian religious standard.

I do not know why you emphasize the 'if'. It's characteristic of ANE casuistic law, and has nothing to do with the legal permission of wrongdoing [?!]

There are other relevant passages here. The preceding verses in the Deuteronomy passage, 10-14, allow war captives to be spared and taken as wives. Also, levirate marriage endorses a polygamy, where a brother or closest relative of a deceased husband marries his widow to father a child in the deceased husband's name, provided that he died without a son.

Even in regards to kings, Deut 17:17 states that "He must not acquire many wives for himself so that his heart won't so that his heart won't go astray." But that is precisely what happens to Solomon and David.

This law is probably later than the oracle from Nathan in 2S xii, because there it is God himself who gave David the wives of Saul's harem as a blessing. (2S xii.8) But you're also overlooking the fact that this law is specifically applied to the king, suggesting that it was acceptable everywhere else.

Polygamy is never prescribed or approved of, it is merely tolerated. Monogamy is consistently the ideal the Bible puts forward.

Aside from the fact that God 'tolerating' sin by making provisions for it in his law is something you obviously can't defend, there is the above example. Monogamy isn't a consistent conjugal ideal in the bible at all. (also cf. Song vi.8)

Finis,
Eric

 

[wavy]

No, the Bible does not allow polygamy...In the very least with slavery, you guys are totally ignoring what Paul says of the NT. And as I stated, the correct understanding is shown in history through the acts of the early Christians.

Okay, so what does Paul say exactly and how does that extenuate the laws explicitly condoning slavery in the Pentateuch? Also, see red. Is there any substantial difference between allowing and tolerating in this case?

If divorcing one's wife, apart from sexual immorality, and then marrying another is adultery, how can marrying another while still being married to the first not be adultery?
...

Divorce is allowed under one condition but even then, polygamy is always ruled out since it would always be adultery, which is disallowed.

That's the whole point of polygamous unions; by their very nature they're not adulterous. If they were adulterous, as fundamentally paradoxical as that is, why are there divine provisos for it instead of the punishment of stoning the laws dealing with actual adultery prescribe?

As I have stated, just because God tolerates it doesn't mean that it is okay. It is still sin since God's standard is monogamy and clearly not okay.

The only arguable 'standards' for monogamy in the bible would be the law of the king in Deuteronomy and pseudo-Paul's in these verses in the case of leaders in the early ecclesiastical structure. But as we saw these laws presuppose that outside of these special cases it was okay.

From the beginning divorce was not in God's intentions for marriage and neither was polygamy. Divorce was allowed because of the hardness of their hearts, just as was polygamy.

Jesus does not address polygamy and cannot be made to do so by your reading in between the lines.

So, to bring this back on topic, taking the Bible literally does not result in allowing polygamy nor slavery.

You haven't even addressed the slavery question except to allude to some unspecified statements of Paul, and your polygamy case hasn't fared well.


Finis,
Eric

 

[justvisiting]

As for homosexuals not reproducing. Many homosexuals have children.kenmaynard
Christian Forum Friend

Posts: 154
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 10:14 am
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That very statement is disturbing. What do you think they will teach them? I guess you are not a heterosexually married person? It wouldn't bother you to think that Johnny homo's parents have taught him to believe sodomy is perfectly fine...and now he wants to make friends with your son.
This is just too abominable to me...No...I do not believe in equality. I believe in the righteous demands of God. You need to get right with God, before you will understand any of this.
Yes, I know what your reply will be. Until you are in tune with God...all your statements will be...live and let live. That isn't at all what God is like. He has destroyed entire nations for their evils.
If you want to believe what you believe...that is your privilege...but you understand nothing of GOD.

 

[Aero_Hudson]

As for homosexuals not reproducing. Many homosexuals have children.kenmaynard
Christian Forum Friend

Posts: 154
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 10:14 am
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That very statement is disturbing. What do you think they will teach them? I guess you are not a heterosexually married person? It wouldn't bother you to think that Johnny homo's parents have taught him to believe sodomy is perfectly fine...and now he wants to make friends with your son.
This is just too abominable to me...No...I do not believe in equality. I believe in the righteous demands of God. You need to get right with God, before you will understand any of this.
Yes, I know what your reply will be. Until you are in tune with God...all your statements will be...live and let live. That isn't at all what God is like. He has destroyed entire nations for their evils.
If you want to believe what you believe...that is your privilege...but you understand nothing of GOD.[quote:1sxlvx1s]

[/quote:1sxlvx1s]

Has God appointed you judge of homosexuals and of ken? Just curious.

 

[kenmaynard]

As for homosexuals not reproducing. Many homosexuals have children.kenmaynard
Christian Forum Friend

Posts: 154
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 10:14 am
Private messageE-mail

That very statement is disturbing. What do you think they will teach them? I guess you are not a heterosexually married person? It wouldn't bother you to think that Johnny homo's parents have taught him to believe sodomy is perfectly fine...and now he wants to make friends with your son.
This is just too abominable to me...No...I do not believe in equality. I believe in the righteous demands of God. You need to get right with God, before you will understand any of this.
Yes, I know what your reply will be. Until you are in tune with God...all your statements will be...live and let live. That isn't at all what God is like. He has destroyed entire nations for their evils.
If you want to believe what you believe...that is your privilege...but you understand nothing of GOD.[quote:2ollcu6e]

Has God appointed you judge of homosexuals and of ken? Just curious.[/quote:2ollcu6e]

He seems to think so. Oh and I am in a heterosexual marriage. Johnny homo? LOL You are full of hate, but claim to be Christian. So so sad.

 

[justvisiting]

There is nothing so, so sad about it. If you are a Christian at all, you should understand what sin and forgiveness is about. I don't go around looking for homosexuals to bash. I do believe in protecting Christian values. If they want to do their thing...then they will do it. I am only happy about one thing. God is not subject to governments and rulers. His thoughts on the matter are the only ones that count. Not universalism, not live and let live...not even gay equality or any other perverse equality. God is a righteous judge. I don't think you comprehend that at all.

 

[Aero_Hudson]

There is nothing so, so sad about it. If you are a Christian at all, you should understand what sin and forgiveness is about. I don't go around looking for homosexuals to bash. I do believe in protecting Christian values. If they want to do their thing...then they will do it. I am only happy about one thing. God is not subject to governments and rulers. His thoughts on the matter are the only ones that count. Not universalism, not live and let live...not even gay equality or any other perverse equality. God is a righteous judge. I don't think you comprehend that at all.

Oh, I do. I think it is presumptious of you to try and take on the role of God and explain to others what is wrong and right. Regardless of what we might think, our government does have the moral obligation to ensure that all citizens are treated equally under the law. Homosexuals should not be discriminated against as a result of what they do in their own bedrooms.

 

[kenmaynard]

There is nothing so, so sad about it. If you are a Christian at all, you should understand what sin and forgiveness is about. I don't go around looking for homosexuals to bash. I do believe in protecting Christian values. If they want to do their thing...then they will do it. I am only happy about one thing. God is not subject to governments and rulers. His thoughts on the matter are the only ones that count. Not universalism, not live and let live...not even gay equality or any other perverse equality. God is a righteous judge. I don't think you comprehend that at all.

Oh I understand full well what you are saying. You are the Fred Phelps type. Hate anger hate. That's all you know. You seem to be the type that take joy from from your belief that all the Muslims, Hindus, homos, and every denomination of Christian that you deem unworthy will burn in an eternal fire, and suffer endlessly. You can't wait to see them suffer and laugh at them from heaven. I know exactly where you are coming from. You are just another hateful person disguised as a Christian.

 

[justvisiting]

You seem to think I spend my time looking for someone to hate. I believe in the righteous demands of Holy God. I don't waste my time going around looking for every person to hate. As a matter of point. I believe in the forgiveness of all men...but they need get in line with the right ways of God. He forgives when they show repentance and acknowledge His ways...not their ways.
And no, I am not disguised as a Christian. I am a Christian. Ask me if God just let me feel good about that. Very much so.

 

[wavy]

Bump for Free.


Also, there is one more law I came across that I failed to add as relevant to polygamy. The laws governing the rape of an unmarried virgin force the attacker to wed his victim. However, if he were already married this law would also entail polygamy. It would not be adultery because that's only applicable to the liaison of a man with another man's wife.


Finis,
Eric