[_ Old Earth _] Big Bang and Evolution

[jasoncran]

"Good" does not mean "perfect." And we have God's word that it was good.



He made you, didn't He? Are you perfect?

so if death is god plans why then did paul say death was the last enemy?
one corinthians 15

26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death

so if adam who would have died without sin, thus with your logic our LORD WHOM was after the simutude of man ere the fall would have died of some ailment and got sick?

um the cross defeated that spritual death.

for he that he alive in christ is dead to the to world, and he that is dead to christ is alive to the world.

sorry the cross does more than that barb, it saves flesh and soul. new body on the earth with no death.

death is done.

and your hero mr. darwin would have gotten upset if you told him that God wanted life this way.

 

[EricTheBaptist]

"Good" does not mean "perfect." And we have God's word that it was good.



He made you, didn't He? Are you perfect?

It said he made mankind. Since only two humans were around at that time. And humans are perfect by nature, it's just when sin enters our life that we do not become perfect. Remember Adam and Eve were immortal until they ate of the tree, I'd consider that perfect.

 

[Free]

Just needed to drop this in. I don't believe it wise to imply that God makes things "imperfect" it says he made it "and it was good". No Atheist, Thelogian, etc is going to convince me that God makes things "good" and not "perfect".

We should let the Bible speak for itself. After several statements of "And God saw that it was good" in Gen 1, we have:

31 Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good. So the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Please show where the Bible states it was "perfect."

And humans are perfect by nature

Please provide Scripture to back up this assertion.

Remember Adam and Eve were immortal until they ate of the tree, I'd consider that perfect.

Please provide Scripture to back this up as well.

 

[EricTheBaptist]

We should let the Bible speak for itself. After several statements of "And God saw that it was good" in Gen 1, we have:

31 Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good. So the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Please show where the Bible states it was "perfect."
"And indeed it was very good" If God makes something good, I guarantee it's not anything less than perfect.

Please provide Scripture to back up this assertion.
"The day you shall eat of this tree is the day you shall surely die."

Please provide Scripture to back this up as well.

See above statement.

 

[Free]

We should let the Bible speak for itself. After several statements of "And God saw that it was good" in Gen 1, we have:

31 Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good. So the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Please show where the Bible states it was "perfect."

"And indeed it was very good" If God makes something good, I guarantee it's not anything less than perfect.

Guaranteed based on what? Not on Scripture it would seem. Would it not make the most sense to understand God creating everything "good" as meaning he created everything the way he had intended or that everything turned out the way he intended?

And humans are perfect by nature

Please provide Scripture to back up this assertion.

"The day you shall eat of this tree is the day you shall surely die."

I'm not sure how that shows that humans are perfect by nature.

Remember Adam and Eve were immortal until they ate of the tree, I'd consider that perfect.

Please provide Scripture to back this up as well.

See above statement.

Assuming you intended to use the verse you gave previously, "The day you shall eat of this tree is the day you shall surely die," one could understand it as implying Adam and Eve were immortal, however, not only is there no direct, explicit statement that they were immortal, there are other ways of understanding that verse, including the nuances of what it means to "die."

 

[Barbarian]

It said he made mankind. Since only two humans were around at that time. And humans are perfect by nature, it's just when sin enters our life that we do not become perfect.

By definition, a perfect being would not sin. So no, that's not consistent with God's word.

Remember Adam and Eve were immortal until they ate of the tree, I'd consider that perfect.

The Bible doesn't say they were. Indeed, in Genesis God expresses concern that they might become immortal:

And he said: Behold Adam is become as one of us, knowing good and evil: now, therefore, lest perhaps he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever. [Genesis 3:22]

If your exegesis depends on God not saying what He meant, isn't that a hint that there's something wrong with it?

 

[jasoncran]

the problem with that free is that death is the final enemy. if death was the intent of god from the beginning then why would simply have said there would be a ressurection?

no ressurection needed and also whales and other animals who by evolution have intellegence then also need a savior as they need to know how god is.

we can dance around words all day and i can and willing to show that by a dance of words the the death on the cross isnt what god meant.

all it would take it for me to post what the jews say.allowing adam to loose life and paradise and then after its realised what he lost then he knows what death meant.

do we have to understand eternal life in order to get it?

if so then free name a chrisitian who has been born and hasnt died and still denies christ.

eternality is a foreign concept to us. the state of being where theres no sorrow, nor death or suffering is foreign concept .yet inside of us theres this longing to want more.

im sure that god didnt want adam and steve.

or liz and eve. if evo is true then those are also equalilly possible and thus planned by god to be.

 

[Barbarian]

so if adam who would have died without sin, thus with your logic our LORD WHOM was after the simutude of man ere the fall would have died of some ailment and got sick?

No, I don't see how you can get there from the fact that Adam was mortal.

um the cross defeated that spritual death.

But not physical death. We will all die someday.

sorry the cross does more than that barb, it saves flesh and soul. new body on the earth with no death.

Doesn't say that. We die and lose this imperfect body and gain a new, perfect one.

and your hero mr. darwin would have gotten upset if you told him that God wanted life this way.

He was Anglican, you know, and later agnostic. So it's hard to say.

 

[jasoncran]

No, I don't see how you can get there from the fact that Adam was mortal.



But not physical death. We will all die someday.



Doesn't say that. We die and lose this imperfect body and gain a new, perfect one.



He was Anglican, you know, and later agnostic. So it's hard to say.

he took on the nature of man barb, and per the nature of adam. the idea of kinsmen redeemer that the redeemer must be related to the redeemed.

so if adam wasnt mortal prior to the fall then jesus wast GOD! as god and man met.

he took on our nature prior to the fall.

here barb let me requote that in context its talking about the RESSURECTION, MEANING THAT DEATH WILL BE DONE AWAY WITH.

one corinthians 15

And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

5And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
6After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
7After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
8And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.
9For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.
10But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.
11Therefore whether it were I or they, so we preach, and so ye believed.
12Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
13But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
14And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
15Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
16For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
17And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
18Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
19If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
20But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death

ok then death as in spirutual death.

what happens to the christian when he is born again? he is made new and alive in christ , so that cant be the death mentioned here as that has no power over us! so what then is it. the new bodies will immortal and on the earth.

death meaning if god intended it to return wouldnt have let it go.

or suffering.

see revalation where theres no more sorrow and suffering.

and if death is the plan then when is god going to destroy the earth and make it a new? wouldnt death be allowed then?

your position is rather tenious and heritical.

sorry. im sure that god didnt let adam lust either nor lust after men or lie either.


fruit of the knowledge gave him the knowledge of what sin is or the propensity to do it.

 

[jasoncran]

if death was good from the beginning why then would god then just give us back bodies that die?

and simply state that is the case. and what does cursed is the ground for your sake mean?

and the finishing of death and sorrow and tears.

which you say god planned. he allowed it for a reason but didnt plan it.

lol a catholic calvinist.
revallelation 21

1And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

2And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

thats not in heaven as heaven never had death and sorrow and etc!

 

[EricTheBaptist]

Guaranteed based on what? Not on Scripture it would seem. Would it not make the most sense to understand God creating everything "good" as meaning he created everything the way he had intended or that everything turned out the way he intended?
Perhaps.

I'm not sure how that shows that humans are perfect by nature.
I'd consider myself perfect if I couldn't die.

Assuming you intended to use the verse you gave previously, "The day you shall eat of this tree is the day you shall surely die," one could understand it as implying Adam and Eve were immortal, however, not only is there no direct, explicit statement that they were immortal, there are other ways of understanding that verse, including the nuances of what it means to "die."

Adam lived for a LONG time, if that's not a sign of immorality then I don't know what is.

By definition, a perfect being would not sin. So no, that's not consistent with God's word.
Given the right manipulation, anything can be taught to sin. (besides God and such)


The Bible doesn't say they were. Indeed, in Genesis God expresses concern that they might become immortal:
See above statements.
And he said: Behold Adam is become as one of us, knowing good and evil: now, therefore, lest perhaps he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever. [Genesis 3:22]

If your exegesis depends on God not saying what He meant, isn't that a hint that there's something wrong with it?

Nope.

 

[Barbarian]

Adam lived for a LONG time, if that's not a sign of immorality then I don't know what is.

I assume you meant "immortality." Dying is a contradiction to immortality. God mentions that Adam is mortal, unless he has access to the Garden. So man's natural state is to die.

Barbarian observes:
By definition, a perfect being would not sin. So no, that's not consistent with God's word.

Given the right manipulation, anything can be taught to sin.

Being prone to sin is an imperfection. Rock and a hard place.

Barbarian observes:
The Bible doesn't say they were. Indeed, in Genesis God expresses concern that they might become immortal:

And he said: Behold Adam is become as one of us, knowing good and evil: now, therefore, lest perhaps he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever. [Genesis 3:22]


Barbarian asks:
If your exegesis depends on God not saying what He meant, isn't that a hint that there's something wrong with it?

Nope.

If God is not trustworthy, we are in big trouble.

 

[jasoncran]

barb, his sin forced god to judge him and remove immortality.

i assumed that you actually understood that.

the problem heres is that theres death prior to adam!

and not a consquence of sin! totally opposite of what your church beleives.

if adam hadnt sinned or eve there would be no death like we know it.

 

[Barbarian]

barb, his sin forced god to judge him and remove immortality.

That's not what God says. He expresses concern that Adam might become immortal.

the problem heres is that theres death prior to adam!

It's not a problem, because the death God was talking about was spiritual, not physical. God says that Adam will die the day he eats from the tree, but Adam eats and lives on for many years physically.

If Adam had remained in the Garden, he could have lived forever, according to God. But God no longer allowed him to have the source of immortality.

and not a consquence of sin! totally opposite of what your church beleives.

The Church accepts that evolution is completely consistent with Christian faith. And it does not ask us to add new doctrines to Genesis, such as the idea that Adam was immortal. He was never so, and God alludes to that fact in Genesis.

if adam hadnt sinned or eve there would be no death like we know it.

Do you really think God started killing animals and plants because Adam sinned?

 

[jasoncran]

That's not what God says. He expresses concern that Adam might become immortal.



It's not a problem, because the death God was talking about was spiritual, not physical. God says that Adam will die the day he eats from the tree, but Adam eats and lives on for many years physically.

If Adam had remained in the Garden, he could have lived forever, according to God. But God no longer allowed him to have the source of immortality.



The Church accepts that evolution is completely consistent with Christian faith. And it does not ask us to add new doctrines to Genesis, such as the idea that Adam was immortal. He was never so, and God alludes to that fact in Genesis.



Do you really think God started killing animals and plants because Adam sinned?

so if adam not sinned would he have died.

yes i do, god judges both man and his beast with him.

no and only plants barb.,


so in the new age there will be death? we will go bodies of decay. life isnt eternal

god intended adam to eat the tree of life if he was faithful, thats my point. that was the means of immortality.

death is nore more per that commentary here barb

FROM YOUR HOLY CHURCH!

[FONT=Times New Roman,Times,serif]Ver. 13-23.[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman,Times,serif] He brings many reasons to convince them of the resurrection. 1. If there be no resurrection for others, Christ is not risen again: but his resurrection (as he tells them ver. 4) was foretold in the Scriptures. 2. And if Christ be not risen again,...your faith is also in vain, this being one of the chief articles of your belief. 3. We shall be found guilty of lies and impostures; and yet we have confirmed this doctrine by many miracles. 4. It would follow that you are not freed from your sins; i.e. unless Christ, by his resurrection, has triumphed over sin and death. 5. Without a resurrection we Christians, who live under self-denials and persecutions, would be the most miserable of all men, neither happy in this world nor in the next, for the happiness of the soul requires also a happy resurrection of the body. 6. Christ is the first-fruits, and the first begotten of the dead, of those who have slept: and by his being the first-fruits, it must be supposed that others also will rise after him. 7. As death came by the first man, (Adam) so the second man (Christ) came to repair the death of men, both as to body and soul; and without Christ's resurrection, both the souls of men have remained dead in their original sins, and their bodies shall not rise again. (Witham)[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times,serif]Ver. 24. &c.[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman,Times,serif] Afterwards the end; i.e. after the general resurrection of all, will be the end of the world. Then Christ shall deliver up his kingdom, as to this world, over all men, over the devil and his apostate angels, signified by principalities and powers; not but that Christ, both as God and man, shall reign for all eternity, not only over his elect but over all creatures, having triumphed by his resurrection over the enemy of mankind, the devil, over sin, and over death, which is as it were the last enemy of his elect. At the general resurrection, Christ will present these elect to his heavenly Father, as the fruits of his victory over sin and death; and though as man he came to suffer and die, and was also made subject to his eternal Father, yet being God as well as man, he is Lord of all, and will make his faithful servants partakers of his glory in his heavenly kingdom. (Witham)[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times,serif]Ver. 28.[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman,Times,serif] The Son also himself shall be subject to him. That is, the Son will be subject to the Father, according to his human nature, even after the general resurrection; and also the whole mystical body of Christ will be entirely subject to God, obeying him in every thing. (Challoner[/FONT]

http://haydock1859.tripod.com/id176.html

IF DIDNT SIN HE WOULD HAVE LIVED FOREVER, BUT NOT according to you.

so sin and its wages are negated as god doesnt kill both body and soul.

were are both barb, we are not some spirit having a body expercience we have both a physical nature and spiritual nature.

sorry barb the wage of sin is death.we get a new body we arent spritually ressurected as angels but as men and women in the new earth.

bodies barb.

will these bodies then die? if death was good and planned and blessed by god then why would god change it.

sorry barb that is an old commentary from the CHURCH. IS IT INVALID FOR ALL CATHOLICS TODAY?

and the church has made no dogma on that barb

http://www.davidmacd.com/catholic/catholic_creationism.htm

Some faithful Catholics have advanced the theory the the world is 4,000-6,000 years old by adding up all the generations listed in the Bible. Other faithful Catholics feel that that there are many documented skipped generations in those Biblical genealogies. They believe scientists that say the earth is about 4 billion years old and that the universe is 13.7 billion years old. Cardinal Ratzinger (now Pope Benedict XVI) wrote:

"... the progress of thought in the last two decades helps us to grasp anew the inner unity of creation and evolution and of faith and reason. It was a particular characteristic of the 19th century to appreciate the historicity of all things and the fact that they came into existence. It perceived that things that we used to consider as unchanging and immutable were the product of a long process of becoming. This was true not only in the realm of the human but also in that of nature. It became evident that the universe was not something like a huge box into which everything was put in a finished state, but that it was comparable instead to a living, growing tree that gradually lifts its branches higher and higher to the sky." Cardinal Ratzinger, In The Beginning: A Catholic Understanding of the Story of Creation and the Fall, 1986, 1995
​

The Church embraces an old earth theory, but it won't ever turn it into a Dogma (necessary belief). We don't even require people to believe the earth is round, even though science has proved it beyond a shadow of a doubt. We don't have to know everything about science to be saved. We simply need to believe in Jesus, surrender to him, and be baptised. Thank God.

that link even says some are like me. so your CHURCH ISNT SO UNITED ON THAT!

 

[EricTheBaptist]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fjx7hZbqmjQ&feature=related skip to 3:10 that will answer your question on Adam.

 

[Barbarian]

that link even says some are like me. so your CHURCH ISNT SO UNITED ON THAT!

Right. The Church quite rightly takes no scientific stand on the issue. If you want to reject the way God created things, then you can be a creationist, and still get to heaven.

That's how it is. The only sin is in trying to make creationism a required doctrine, and thereby obstructing the path for others to come to Him.

 

[cupid dave]

the problem with that free is that death is the final enemy. if death was the intent of god from the beginning then why would simply have said there would be a ressurection?
.

Death refers to extinction of a species.

For modern man, there has been no death like that experienced by the extinction of the 22 human species that were links in our own ascent.

As a species, we have not died,... yet...
The Bible is telling us to realize that Truth is our Lord, the only tool and only light into maintaining our co-existence with this Creation as a species.



The day will come when we have evolved in a way that allows us access into the memories contained in our Unconscious mind.
That ancient of ancient genetic component that has all the historical truth stored away will soon be available to our Conscious mind.





Revelation21:4-5

AndGod, (blessing them with Total Phylogenetic Consciousness: [Carl Jung]),shall wipe away, (in their awakened Unconscious Mind: [FreudianHypothesis]), all tears from their eyes, (for life is a geneticallyremember able continuum from one generation to the next living generation);

(ingenetic memories of prior existences held in our Unconscious Mind) thereshall be no more death... (For we shall not all "sleep:"[1Co15:51], but total phylogenetic Consciousness will have evolved), neithersorrow... (for we, individually, are part of a living continuum of our ownpast, flowers upon our genetic vine), nor crying,.. (for we are happyin these revelations of reconstitution from our human gene pool), neithershall there be any more pain... for the former things (in Modern Homosapiens paradigm of the life experience) are passed away.



And“He,” (the ancient, phylogenetic, Collective Unconscious Mind), that satupon the throne (within the kingdom of the evolving Homoiousian sapiens'brain: [Luke 17:21]) said, Behold, (in this way, through evolution: [Gen9:11-18]), I make all things (in human experience) new.



Andhe said unto me, Write: for these words are true, (i.e.; Christ himself,the gospel Truth, rational, and scientifically feasible), and (worthyof) faithful (belief).