'birthpains' & 'signs of the times'

[MrVersatile48]

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WEB RESULTS

Prophecy Teaching from Don Stanton (MRC)

The Official Website of PWMI ... All these are the beginning of birthpains. ... will appear and will perform great signs and wonders, so as to deceive, if ...

http://www.pwmi.org/therapture.htm More pages from this site

Christian Evangelist Roger Whipp, From Cop to Christ - Weather Reports

Luke 12 v54-57

It doesn't take a PHD to recognize the signs of the times in our generation. ... earthquakes in various places and famines, these are the beginning of birthpains. ...

http://www.evangelist-rogerwhipp.org/vi ... eID=234575 - 41k - Cached - More pages from this site


Yahoo! Answers - End Times?

... we may be experiencing the birthpains of the end times, it could be years before ... Do you believe we are experiencing the signs of the times? ...

http://www.answers.yahoo.com/question/i ... 042AA7ms8H - 223k - Cached - More pages from this site

www.angelfire.com/super/savior/reports/birthpains.html

The other sign of the times--earthquakes--are not uncommon in our age. ... awful quakes in India, Turkey, etc. If these aren't the end times, when are they? ...

http://www.angelfire.com/super/savior/r ... pains.html - 21k - Cached - More pages from this site


Millennium Seven

In times of obedience the House of Israel was invincible, and Satan's forces ... All these are the beginning of birthpains. ...

http://www.zionministry.com/millen7.html - 196k - Cached - More pages from this site

 

[beehive2]

The other sign of the times--earthquakes--are not uncommon in our age. ... awful quakes in India, Turkey, etc. If these aren't the end times, when are they? ...

That's the most disturbing comment because mankind has excused away all of the signs with their scientific explanations. "The Exodus Revealed" was something I watched, but sickened me that modern man wants to take away everything we have believed in since the dawn of time.

When are the signs enough? For the non-believers, when it is too late and the end is staring right in their faces. But for the believers, we are the only ones who can see through it all (the explanations, the excuses), and "know" the times have been occuring already and will continue to occur. And so we repent. And wait for the Lord. :angel:

 

[preterist]

If these aren't the end times, when are they? ...

Well, the Bible answers the question for us:

1Pe 1:20 who was foreknown indeed before the foundation of the world, but was manifested at the end of times for your sake,

 

[lecoop]

Well, the Bible answers the question for us:

1Pe 1:20 who was foreknown indeed before the foundation of the world, but was manifested at the end of times for your sake,

Hmm. I guess we are at the end of the end of times now!

:smt043

Coop

 

[preterist]

Hmm. I guess we are at the end of the end of times now!

:smt043

Coop

Not unless you are living in the times of Jesus.

 

[lecoop]

Not unless you are living in the times of Jesus.

One dispensation ended, the dispensation of Emanuel (God with us) and another started: the age of Grace. We are now at the end of the age of grace.

Or did we all die and go home, and I missed it?

Jesus was "manifested at the end of times" for your sake; not for theirs only, but for all those that were before Him, those alive when He came, and now for us. What times was He at the end of? The times of those living then, and for the 4000 years before Him. It was the end of the Law, as they knew it (except they did not know it!) except for the "day of the Lord," still in their (Israel's) future.

Coop

 

[preterist]

One dispensation ended, the dispensation of Emanuel (God with us) and another started: the age of Grace. We are now at the end of the age of grace.

When did the (God with us) age end?

What times was He at the end of? The times of those living then, and for the 4000 years before Him.

Is this the end the NT writers refer to? Or are they speaking of the end of the Church Age?

 

[lecoop]

Quote: Coop

One dispensation ended, the dispensation of Emanuel (God with us) and another started: the age of Grace. We are now at the end of the age of grace.

When did the (God with us) age end?

When He died, He was no longer, "Emanuel." Jesus died, was buried, rose from the dead, then ascended back to be at the Father's right hand, and so, is not "with" us as a man, as He was with the disciples.

Quote: Coop
[quote:d6bd4]What times was He at the end of? The times of those living then, and for the 4000 years before Him.

Is this the end the NT writers refer to? Or are they speaking of the end of the Church Age?[/quote:d6bd4]

1 Corinthians 15
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

"Then" at His coming will be the end. Sorry, but He has not yet "come." He has not yet delivered up the kingdom to God. All "rule" and "authority" and "power" has not yet been put down. When all these things happen, we will be at the "end."

Coop

 

[MrVersatile48]

That's the most disturbing comment because mankind has excused away all of the signs with their scientific explanations. "The Exodus Revealed" was something I watched, but sickened me that modern man wants to take away everything we have believed in since the dawn of time.

When are the signs enough? For the non-believers, when it is too late and the end is staring right in their faces. But for the believers, we are the only ones who can see through it all (the explanations, the excuses), and "know" the times have been occuring already and will continue to occur. And so we repent. And wait for the Lord. :angel:

Up to the 17th century, there was ony @ 1 major earthquake per century

Yahoo how many major earthquakes per year since 9/11

 

[beehive2]

!

Googled an Yahoo'ed that and couldn't find anything...

Do you have a direct link, sure would be interesting to see..

Thanks!

 

[preterist]

When did the (God with us) age end?

When He died, He was no longer, "Emanuel." Jesus died, was buried, rose from the dead, then ascended back to be at the Father's right hand, and so, is not "with" us as a man, as He was with the disciples.

So the NT writers speak of the end of the Church Age. The Age which you say started at the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus. Yet just a mere 20-30 years after the beginning of the Church Age we have inspired NT writers telling us how near the “end†is:

1Co 10:11 Now these things happened unto them by way of example; and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages are come.

Paul speaking to the Corinthians says the end of the ages has come upon them.

Jam 5:8 Be ye also patient; establish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord is at hand.

James says the coming of the Lord is at hand. At hand in the 1st century.

1Jo 2:18 Little children, it is the last hour: and as ye heard that antichrist cometh, even now have there arisen many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last hour.

John says it is the last hour. Last hour of what in the 1st century context??

Heb 9:26 else must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once at the end of the ages hath he been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

The writer of Hebrews also indicates the end of the ages was in their time as well.

Is it not rather reckless of the NT writers to say something is near or at hand when it was clearly not? Does it sound like inspired writers to you? You have the NT writers proclaiming the end of the Church Age 30 years after it began, and here we are over 1900 years later. :o

1 Corinthians 15
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

"Then" at His coming will be the end. Sorry, but He has not yet "come." He has not yet delivered up the kingdom to God. All "rule" and "authority" and "power" has not yet been put down. When all these things happen, we will be at the "end."

Is this a different “end†that Peter said was “at hand�

1Pe 4:7 But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore of sound mind, and be sober unto prayer:

Were Peter and Paul on different eschatological pages?

Up to the 17th century, there was ony @ 1 major earthquake per century

Why not keep the Olivet Discourse in it correct 1st century, end of the Jewish Age context?

"...they lay all night before the wall, though in a very bad encampment; for there broke out a prodigious storm in the night, with the utmost violence, and very strong winds, with the largest showers of rain, with continual lightnings, terrible thunderings, and amazing concussions and bellowings of the earth, that was in an earthquake. These things were a manifest indication that some destruction was coming upon men when the system of the world was put into this discord, and anyone would guess that these wonders foreshowed some grand calamities that were coming."
(Josephus, The Wars Of The Jews, 4:4:5)

"Suddenly there was a great earthquake, so that the foundations of the prison were shaken; and immediately all the doors were opened and everyone's chains were loosed."
(Acts 16:26)

"Several prodigies occurred in that year. Birds of evil omen perched on the Capitol; houses were thrown down by frequent shocks of earthquake, and as the panic spread, all the weak were trodden down in the hurry and confusion of the crowd."
(Tacitus, The Annals, 12:43)

"Apamea, too, which had been shaken by an earthquake, had its tribute remitted for five years."
(Tacitus, The Annals, 12:58)

"How often have the cities of Asia and Achaea fallen with one shock! How many cities have been swallowed up in Syria! How many in Macedonia! How often has Paphos become a ruin! News has often been brought to us of the demolition of whole cities at once!"
(Seneca)

"One of the famous cities of Asia, Laodicea, was that same year overthrown by an earthquake..."
(Tacitus, The Annals, 14:27)

"An earthquake too demolished a large part of Pompeii, a populous town in Campania."
(Tacitus, The Annals, 15:22)

Other earthquakes are reported to have occurred between 45 - 65 A.D. with much frequency in Hierapolis, Colosse, Crete, Smyrna, Miletus, Chios, Samos, Judea, Rome and other places. These cases are recorded by authors and historians such as Seneca, Philostratus, Eusebius, Orosius, Sentonius, etc..

Yahoo how many major earthquakes per

OK:

-4. How Many Earthquakes Happen Each Year?

There are over a million quakes annually, including those too small to be felt.

-As a result, many more earthquakes are reported than in the past because of the vast improvement in instrumentation (not because the number of earthquakes has increased).

-There is no scientific evidence (as far as I know) that the number of earthquakes per year is increasing, contrary to the claims of some Bible prophecy teachers who seem to be misinterpreting passages in the Olivet Discourse of Jesus such as Matt. 24:7. There is more instrumentation to record earthquakes around the world in place today compared to former times, of course. Increases in world population mean that the impact of earthquakes on people has become greater. http://www.ldolphin.org/quakes.html

Googled an Yahoo'ed that and couldn't find anything...

Do you have a direct link, sure would be interesting to see..

Yes it would, my guess it is a link to Hal Lindsey, Jack VanImpe or John Hagee. :D

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

Re: !

Googled an Yahoo'ed that and couldn't find anything...

Do you have a direct link, sure would be interesting to see..

Thanks!

Howdy ZaksDarlin


http://earthquake.usgs.gov/

This link is gonna tell you more than you could possibly want to know. I put it on my home page after I found it. The first time I opened the page, it showed that there were over 180 earthquakes around the world for that week. It has pages that you can go to that show historical data (Most, biggest, most lives lost, most $$ damage), it has maps, and if you add it to your home page, you can keep up with where earthquakes are happening anytime. (Most seem to be in Alaska and California.)
For example: This page shows the latest earthquakes.
http://earthquake.usgs.gov/eqcenter/

 

[Vic C.]

Up to the 17th century, there was ony @ 1 major earthquake per century

Yahoo how many major earthquakes per year since 9/11

May I rephrase that?

Up to the 17th century, there was ony 1 known major earthquake per century.

8-)

 

[lecoop]

John says it is the last hour. Last hour of what in the 1st century context??

Is it not rather reckless of the NT writers to say something is near or at hand when it was clearly not?

Does it sound like inspired writers to you?

You have the NT writers proclaiming the end of the Church Age 30 years after it began, and here we are over 1900 years later.

Is this a different “end†that Peter said was “at hand�

Were Peter and Paul on different eschatological pages?

Why not keep the Olivet Discourse in it correct 1st century, end of the Jewish Age context?

All very good questions. Please allow me to tell you why I am not a preterist. We have a few verses in the NT, such as these above, that seem to indicate that the end should have come way back then. However, we have many times over, the number of verses that speak of events that have not yet occured. I will just mention one: No matter how slick a speaker a preterist is, he or she can never be good enough to convince but just a few pretribers that Jesus has indeed come back, and that every eye saw Him, and that the thousand year reign has begun. It is an argument that just won't fly. how you have convinced yourself, or how other preterists have convinced themselves, I will never know. All I can say is, when the future rapture does occur, and when we are shouting up and down the streets of gold, I hope you will call Jesus over and ask Him why He included these verses in the bible?

John says it is the last hour. Last hour of what in the 1st century context??

You will have to admit, these verses do keep the idea of "immenence" alive! If it was the last hour then, it is overdue now. Did not James write, "Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain."

Is it not rather reckless of the NT writers to say something is near or at hand when it was clearly not?

Does it sound like inspired writers to you?

No, not at all, because they wrote as the HS persuaded them to write. If you have a problem with what He wrote, you will have to take it up with Him. One thing is for sure: we do not look at time as God does. Remember Jonah? Somehow, he just knew that God was a God of great mercy and patience, and after he (Jonah) would give the warning, then God would repent and not do it. That is why Jonah ran! What was the message he finally gave? "Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown."

Now, how long did it take God to finally overthrow Nineveh? Jonah preached in 767 BC by my bible. Ninivah was destroyed in 625 BC. That would be 142 years! Let's see: that would be 142 * 360 = 51120 days, minus the 40 days, would be 51,080 days late!

Could it be that God in His great mercy, wanting all the Gentiles to come in, that want in, has great patience for His harvest? You need to ask Him!

Meanwhile, read Revelation with an open and reasonable mind: Jesus has not yet come to earth on a white horse, with 10,000's of His saints. The battle of Armageddon has not yet happened. Neither has the "day of the Lord," nor the 70th week of Daniel.

You have the NT writers proclaiming the end of the Church Age 30 years after it began, and here we are over 1900 years later.

30 / 1900 compared with 40 / 51,080: it seems like we have many, many years to go!

Coop

 

[preterist]

We have a few verses in the NT, such as these above, that seem to indicate that the end should have come way back then.

1st of all there are not “few†but many. Secondly you are correct that they seem to indicate the end was to come “way back thenâ€Â. I wonder why they seem to indicate that?

However, we have many times over, the number of verses that speak of events that have not yet occured. I will just mention one: No matter how slick a speaker a preterist is, he or she can never be good enough to convince but just a few pretribers that Jesus has indeed come back, and that every eye saw Him, and that the thousand year reign has begun.

This is because you look through the eyes of Hal Lindsey and not through the eyes of a 1st century Hebrew. Let me quote a pre-tribber:

John Gill on Matthew 26:64:


and coming in, the clouds of heaven. So Christ's coming to take vengeance on the Jewish nation, as it is often called the coming of the son of man, is described in this manner, Mat_24:27.

It is an argument that just won't fly. how you have convinced yourself, or how other preterists have convinced themselves, I will never know.

Study. Try it sometime. But you must start in the OT, and put away your “Left Behind†series.

All I can say is, when the future rapture does occur, and when we are shouting up and down the streets of gold, I hope you will call Jesus over and ask Him why He included these verses in the bible?

Which verses? I dealt with many on the other thread that you seemed to bail out on when it became obvious your answers were no longer adequate.

http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopi ... 8&start=45

Still think John 19:37 hasn't been fulfilled yet?

Quote:
John says it is the last hour. Last hour of what in the 1st century context??


You will have to admit, these verses do keep the idea of "immenence" alive!

Define imminence.

If it was the last hour then, it is overdue now. Did not James write, "Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain."

You reckon the husbandman expected the rains in his lifetime? Or are his great great great ………..grandchildren still waiting on the rain?

No, not at all, because they wrote as the HS persuaded them to write.

So the Holy Spirit instructed the NT writers to write things that were not true. Interesting concept.

If you have a problem with what He wrote, you will have to take it up with Him.

That’s just it, I don’t have a problem with it. It seems to fit perfectly with everything else He wrote. You seem to want to twist His words to fit your view.

One thing is for sure: we do not look at time as God does.

Once again you are saying God chose to communicate with us in terms we would not nor could not understand. Kinda renders His words meaningless if you believe that.

Remember Jonah? Somehow, he just knew that God was a God of great mercy and patience, and after he (Jonah) would give the warning, then God would repent and not do it. That is why Jonah ran! What was the message he finally gave? "Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown."

Now, how long did it take God to finally overthrow Nineveh? Jonah preached in 767 BC by my bible. Ninivah was destroyed in 625 BC. That would be 142 years! Let's see: that would be 142 * 360 = 51120 days, minus the 40 days, would be 51,080 days late!

Of course there is the little detail that they did in fact repent:

Jon 3:5 And the people of Nineveh believed God; and they proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest of them even to the least of them.

Meanwhile, read Revelation with an open and reasonable mind: Jesus has not yet come to earth on a white horse, with 10,000's of His saints. The battle of Armageddon has not yet happened. Neither has the "day of the Lord," nor the 70th week of Daniel.

You mean with a dispensational mind, which I usually find to be neither open nor reasonable.

30 / 1900 compared with 40 / 51,080: it seems like we have many, many years to go!

Wow, I thought we were in the “end times†now. Guess not.

All very good questions. Please allow me to tell you why I am not a preterist.

The only reasons you seem to come up with is that the preterist approach doesn’t fulfill things the way you think they are suppose to be fulfilled. You use very little scripture to explain why your not a preterist

 

[lecoop]

Why I am not a preterist? Very simply, it is just too goofy a doctrine to believe, and is based on a poor understanding of the end time scriptures. They, the preterists, would have us believe that all these verses are in our history.

Joel 1
15 Alas for the day! for the day of the LORD is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come.
How interesting, we see "at hand" here too!

18 How do the beasts groan! the herds of cattle are perplexed, because they have no pasture; yea, the flocks of sheep are made desolate.
19 O LORD, to thee will I cry: for the fire hath devoured the pastures of the wilderness, and the flame hath burned all the trees of the field.
20 The beasts of the field cry also unto thee: for the rivers of waters are dried up, and the fire hath devoured the pastures of the wilderness.

When, oh when, did this happen? Answer: it did not! It is still in our future. Notice what John says about the pastures:

Rev 8
7 The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.

When did this happen? Answer: it did not! It is still in our future. Notice that it does not say, 'cast on Jerusalem," or "cast on the MidEast;" no, it says "cast on the earth." This is a world wide event, as a judgement from God, during the first half of the 70th week of Daniel, still in our future.

What was the context of these verses in Joel?

15 Alas for the day! for the day of the LORD is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come.

The context is a future time for Israel, after the church has been raptured to heaven. We will spend more time on this "Day of the Lord."

Joel 2
1 Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand;

Wow! Again, we see that it is "nigh at hand." What is this Day going to be like?

2 A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations.
20 But I will remove far off from you the northern army, and will drive him into a land barren and desolate, with his face toward the east sea, and his hinder part toward the utmost sea, and his stink shall come up, and his ill savour shall come up, because he hath done great things.

How interesting! The attacking army here, during the Day of the Lord, does not destroy jerusalem, but is driven back to the sea, and killed! Did this happen to Titus? Answer: No!

31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the LORD come.

This should sound familiar:

Rev 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

There can be no doubt that the 6th seal is the fulfillment of the prophecy in Joel. Notice that Joel said these cosmic signs would come before the day of the Lord. In Revelation then, we see that the day of the Lord starts with the next seal event: the 7th seal. Therefore, these cosmic signs fulfill the prophecy of Joel and the day of the Lord is started after the cosmic signs. What we read, then, in Rev. 8 on - from the 7th seal onward - will be the day of the Lord. Again, the preterists would have us believe that these events, both here in old testament prophecy, and in Revelation, happened in 70 AD. Please note, it is the same "day of the Lord," in Revelation as here in Joel. What did verse 20 above say? That the armies coming against Jerusalem would be destroyed! In AD 70, it was Jerusalem that was destroyed!

What then, do we read in Revelation from chapter 8 on? We just read "there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up! This is what the day of the Lord is: total destruction! For the readers: did all the green grass in the world burn up when Titus attacked Jerusalem?

Joel 3
1For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem,

When? Joel is still on the subject of the "day of the Lord." From above, the day that will start with the 7th angel blowing his trumpet. Now, notice what will happen on that "day."

2 I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.

Notice what this says: "I will gather all nations..." Sorry, but this would have been impossible then. Very possible now - but impossible then. This is still a prophecy in our future. There is more on this:

Rev 19
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

First off, no one has seen the King coming, riding on a white horse! That whole idea is ludicrous. That is the context of these verses! Notice, this is the nations: "I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat..." What happens to them? They become bird feed! Did this happen in 70 AD? No, of course not! There is still more:

Ezek 38
17 And, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, even a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood.
18 Ye shall eat the flesh of the mighty, and drink the blood of the princes of the earth, of rams, of lambs, and of goats, of bullocks, all of them fatlings of Bashan.

These are the nations gathered against Jerusalem, and Against her King, Jesus the Christ. The verses below speak further:

Joel 3
9 Proclaim ye this among the Gentiles; Prepare war, wake up the mighty men, let all the men of war draw near; let them come up:
10Beat your plowshares into swords and your pruninghooks into spears: let the weak say, I am strong.
11 Assemble yourselves, and come, all ye heathen, and gather yourselves together round about: thither cause thy mighty ones to come down, O LORD.
12 Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about.

The preterists would have us believe that this was fulfilled in 70 AD. NOT! This will be a minimun of 10 nations, perhaps more, that will join with the beast and come against Israel, and ultimately against Her King.

Rev 16
12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

Please notice that these three evil spirits, go out to the whole world, to convince them to come and gather together in Israel: yet the preterist would have us believe that this was fulfilled in 70 AD! That is preposterous! Who is involved?

Rev 17
12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.
14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

How silly to think that this was fulfilled in AD 70! There was NOT 10 nations gathered together to fight with Jesus Himself! No, this is in our future.

Joel 3
13Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great.
14Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.

This is referring to the great battle of Armageddon. It is the "day of the Lord," not the days of Titus. Rev 14 speaks on this too: with two angels on clouds with sickles, ready to harvest the armies that would dare challenge God.

Joel 3
15The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.

Again we see this verse that aligns with the 6th seal, and the cosmic signs see then. Again, preterists would have us think that this was about 70 AD. They are wrong! Notice what Joel goes on to say:

16The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.
17So shall ye know that I am the LORD your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more.
18And it shall come to pass in that day, that the mountains shall drop down new wine, and the hills shall flow with milk, and all the rivers of Judah shall flow with waters, and a fountain shall come forth out of the house of the LORD, and shall water the valley of Shittim.

Did the Lord roar out of Zion then, when Titus was there? NO! Was the Lord the hope of His people then? No, they were distroyed. For the readers, see how ludicrous this preterism belief is? The Lord did not come and same them from Titus. Neither did the mountains shall drop down new wine, and the hills shall flow with milk! Sorry, but this just did not happen! But notice what comes next: it is incontrovertible: "a fountain shall come forth out of the house of the LORD, and shall water the valley of Shittim!" Do we see this water today? No, for no one has seen it, and will never see it until this verse is fulfilled, when Jesus comes back bodily and sets his foot of the mount!

Zechariah 14:
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

Ezek 47
8 Then said he unto me, These waters issue out toward the east country, and go down into the desert, and go into the sea: which being brought forth into the sea, the waters shall be healed.
9 And it shall come to pass, that every thing that liveth, which moveth, whithersoever the rivers shall come, shall live: and there shall be a very great multitude of fish, because these waters shall come thither: for they shall be healed; and every thing shall live whither the river cometh.
10 And it shall come to pass, that the fishers shall stand upon it from Engedi even unto Eneglaim; they shall be a place to spread forth nets; their fish shall be according to their kinds, as the fish of the great sea, exceeding many.

We can easily observe these things. They have NOT happened! There is no pure water proceeding out of the temple in Jersusalem. And no one fishes in that water that is not yet there! Yet the preterist would have us believe that these things have already happened, in 70 AD! Wait, just to be sure, what is the context of the verses above in Zechariah 14, where Jesus Himself sets His feet on the mount, and the mountain splits (another thing that has never happened!) The context, again is this:

Zechariah 14
1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

Once again, the context is the "day of the Lord," that time in our future that will start with the 6th seal, and go on past the battle of Armageddon. When anyone does any real study on this, it is very clear that these are events in our future. There is no huge canyon on the mount of Olives, since that mountain has not yet split, since Jesus has not yet set His feet down there. There is no water proceeding out, and making the dead sea live once more. Yet this is what the preterist would have us believe.

Zephaniah 1
7Hold thy peace at the presence of the Lord GOD: for the day of the LORD is at hand: for the LORD hath prepared a sacrifice, he hath bid his guests.

Here is that catchy phrase once again: "at hand!" And once again, it is in reference to the "day of the Lord!" ONce again we see an event in this day, where God has prepared a great feast, called his guests, the nations, and called the vultures and buzzards too! His guests will be the great feast! Once again, we know that this did not happen in 70 AD.

14The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.
15That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,
17And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the LORD: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung.
18Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the LORD's wrath; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy: for he shall make even a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land.

Zephaniah 2
9Therefore as I live, saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel, Surely Moab shall be as Sodom, and the children of Ammon as Gomorrah, even the breeding of nettles, and saltpits, and a perpetual desolation: the residue of my people shall spoil them, and the remnant of my people shall possess them.

For the history student: What happened to Moab in 70 AD? Ammon?


Zephaniah 3
8 Therefore wait ye upon me, saith the LORD, until the day that I rise up to the prey: for my determination is to gather the nations, that I may assemble the kingdoms, to pour upon them mine indignation, even all my fierce anger: for all the earth shall be devoured with the fire of my jealousy.
9 For then will I turn to the people a pure language, that they may all call upon the name of the LORD, to serve him with one consent.
13 The remnant of Israel shall not do iniquity, nor speak lies; neither shall a deceitful tongue be found in their mouth: for they shall feed and lie down, and none shall make them afraid.
14 Sing, O daughter of Zion; shout, O Israel; be glad and rejoice with all the heart, O daughter of Jerusalem.
15 The LORD hath taken away thy judgments, he hath cast out thine enemy: the king of Israel, even the LORD, is in the midst of thee: thou shalt not see evil any more.
16 In that day it shall be said to Jerusalem, Fear thou not: and to Zion, Let not thine hands be slack.
17 The LORD thy God in the midst of thee is mighty; he will save, he will rejoice over thee with joy; he will rest in his love, he will joy over thee with singing.

Verse 8: more about gathering the nations! But notice what else? " for all the earth shall be devoured with the fire of my jealousy." Did you catch that? God says, "all the earth." This is not a prophecy of 70 AD. Do the people in Israel use "a pure language" to "call upon the name of the LORD, to serve him with one consent." I don't think so. Most in Israel do not call on Him at all! Again, this is clearly future to us! Verses 15-17 are clearly not speaking about any time since AD 70! This is still in Israel's future. And what is the context? Of course, it is the same as we have been showing, the "day of the Lord," and the day that He gathers together the nations, to destroy them!

Zechariah 14
9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.
12And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.
17And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
20In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD's house shall be like the bowls before the altar.
21Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts:

Is the LORD "king over all the earth?" No! Verse 12 describes a death like a nuclear blast! Again, that did not happen in 70 AD.

Isaiah 2:12
For the day of the LORD of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low:
19And they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth.
20In that day a man shall cast his idols of silver, and his idols of gold, which they made each one for himself to worship, to the moles and to the bats;
21To go into the clefts of the rocks, and into the tops of the ragged rocks, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth.

Again, a prophecy that points directly to the 6th seal, showing that the "day of the Lord" will start right after that.

Isaiah 4
1And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying, We will eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel: only let us be called by thy name, to take away our reproach.
3And it shall come to pass, that he that is left in Zion, and he that remaineth in Jerusalem, shall be called holy, even every one that is written among the living in Jerusalem:

How many will die at the battle of Armageddon? It seems, most of the men in the world! Seven women will cling to one man!

Isaiah 13
9Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
10For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
11And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
12 I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir. 13Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.
9Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
10For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
11And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
12I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir.
13Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.

19And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the beauty of the Chaldees' excellency, shall be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah.
20It shall never be inhabited, neither shall it be dwelt in from generation to generation: neither shall the Arabian pitch tent there; neither shall the shepherds make their fold there.

Is God to punish Israel or the world, during this "day of the Lord?" Answer: the world. No, this is NOT speaking of 70 AD! Again, how many men of the world will die? "I will make a man more precious than fine gold." No wonder 7 woman will cling to one man.! Clearly, this is not speaking of 70 AD!

Jerimiah 46
10For this is the day of the Lord GOD of hosts, a day of vengeance, that he may avenge him of his adversaries: and the sword shall devour, and it shall be satiate and made drunk with their blood: for the Lord GOD of hosts hath a sacrifice in the north country by the river Euphrates.
10For this is the day of the Lord GOD of hosts, a day of vengeance, that he may avenge him of his adversaries: and the sword shall devour, and it shall be satiate and made drunk with their blood: for the Lord GOD of hosts hath a sacrifice in the north country by the river Euphrates.

Hmmm! Did Titus make it up to the River Euphrates too? No, it says, "the Lord God..."

For the readers, perhaps now you can see why I will never be a preterist. It is simple too goofy to consider, when all these scriptures are taken together.

Coop

 

[preterist]

...

Joel 1
15 Alas for the day! for the day of the LORD is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come.
How interesting, we see "at hand" here too!

Apparently the Jamison, Fausset and Brown commentary also believes it was a near event in that day and pertaining to Judea:

Here the transition begins from the plague of locusts to the worse calamities (Joe_2:1-11) from invading armies about to come on Judea, of which the locusts were the prelude.

18 How do the beasts groan! the herds of cattle are perplexed, because they have no pasture; yea, the flocks of sheep are made desolate.
19 O LORD, to thee will I cry: for the fire hath devoured the pastures of the wilderness, and the flame hath burned all the trees of the field.
20 The beasts of the field cry also unto thee: for the rivers of waters are dried up, and the fire hath devoured the pastures of the wilderness.

When, oh when, did this happen? Answer: it did not! It is still in our future.

So we will literally see beast of the field cry? Preterist allow the OT prophets to use figures of speech just like is done today. Dispies force everything into a literal/physical fulfillment. The result of this method: http://www.jvim.com/

Rev 8
7 The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.

When did this happen? Answer: it did not! It is still in our future. Notice that it does not say, 'cast on Jerusalem," or "cast on the MidEast;" no, it says "cast on the earth." This is a world wide event, as a judgement from God, during the first half of the 70th week of Daniel, still in our future.

Yet another mistake by you. Young’s Literal Translation understands the greek word for “earth†has the meaning of “landâ€Â, not world-wide. Kosmos would have been the word used if the entire world was meant.

YLT:

Rev 8:7 and the first messenger did sound, and there came hail and fire, mingled with blood, and it was cast to the land, and the third of the trees was burnt up, and all the green grass was burnt up.

Now what land? The land of Judea.

G1093
γῆ
gē
ghay
Contracted from a primary word; soil; by extension a region, or the solid part or the whole of the terrene globe (including the occupants in each application): - country, earth (-ly), ground, land, world.

Joel 2
1 Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand;

Wow! Again, we see that it is "nigh at hand." What is this Day going to be like?

John Gill, who I remind everyone again is not a preterist, says this regarding the context of Joel 2:

Joel 2 - INTRODUCTION TO JOEL 2

In this chapter a further account is given of the judgment of the locusts and caterpillars, or of those who are designed by them, Joe_2:1; the people of the Jews are called to repentance, humiliation, and fasting, urged from the grace and goodness of God, his jealousy and pity for his people, and the answer of prayer that might he expected from him upon this, even to the removal of the calamity, Joe_2:12; a prophecy of good things, both temporal and spiritual, in the times of the Messiah, is delivered out as matter and occasion of great joy, Joe_2:21; and another concerning the effusion of the Spirit, which was fulfilled an the day of Pentecost, Joe_2:28; and the chapter is concluded with the judgments and desolations that should come upon the land of Judea after this, for their rejection of Christ, though the remnant according to the election of grace should be delivered and saved from the general destruction, Joe_2:30.

20 But I will remove far off from you the northern army, and will drive him into a land barren and desolate, with his face toward the east sea, and his hinder part toward the utmost sea, and his stink shall come up, and his ill savour shall come up, because he hath done great things.

How interesting! The attacking army here, during the Day of the Lord, does not destroy jerusalem, but is driven back to the sea, and killed! Did this happen to Titus? Answer: No!

Who is claiming this happened under Titus? Perhaps a little brush up on history will convince you.

Adam Clarke:

Joe 2:20 -
I will remove far off from you the northern army - “That is, the locusts; which might enter Judea by the north, as Circassia and Mingrelia abound with them. Or the locusts may be thus called, because they spread terror like the Assyrian armies, which entered Judea by the north.

Unfortunately this is a common practice among modern futurist, take events that happened 4000 years ago and force them into our future.

did all the green grass in the world burn up when Titus attacked Jerusalem?

SO what happens to all the people living on earth when the entire world is burned up? Don’t dispies have people still on earth after this event?

2 I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.

Notice what this says: "I will gather all nations..." Sorry, but this would have been impossible then.

Exactly how was this impossible? Rome was made up of many nations and the region was called the “worldâ€Â.

Luk 2:1 And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed.

Think Caesar got the Indians and Eskimos on his tax roles? Context, context, context, the forgotten word in Dispieland.

Rev 19
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

First off, no one has seen the King coming, riding on a white horse! That whole idea is ludicrous.

Once again your fatal flaw, forcing a literal fulfillment on a book full of OT symbols and imagery. Do you really want to get into a debate of how you take the book of Revelation literally? If so, it would be my pleasure.

Neither did the mountains shall drop down new wine, and the hills shall flow with milk! Sorry, but this just did not happen! But notice what comes next: it is incontrovertible: "a fountain shall come forth out of the house of the LORD, and shall water the valley of Shittim!" Do we see this water today? No, for no one has seen it, and will never see it until this verse is fulfilled, when Jesus comes back bodily and sets his foot of the mount!

So you think literal wine shall drop from mountains? You really believe the hills will flow with literal milk?

Has this happened yet:

Joh 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

According to your hermeneutic I guess not.

Zechariah 14:
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

Ezek 47
8 Then said he unto me, These waters issue out toward the east country, and go down into the desert, and go into the sea: which being brought forth into the sea, the waters shall be healed.
9 And it shall come to pass, that every thing that liveth, which moveth, whithersoever the rivers shall come, shall live: and there shall be a very great multitude of fish, because these waters shall come thither: for they shall be healed; and every thing shall live whither the river cometh.
10 And it shall come to pass, that the fishers shall stand upon it from Engedi even unto Eneglaim; they shall be a place to spread forth nets; their fish shall be according to their kinds, as the fish of the great sea, exceeding many.

We can easily observe these things. They have NOT happened! There is no pure water proceeding out of the temple in Jersusalem. And no one fishes in that water that is not yet there! Yet the preterist would have us believe that these things have already happened, in 70 AD! Wait, just to be sure, what is the context of the verses above in Zechariah 14, where Jesus Himself sets His feet on the mount, and the mountain splits (another thing that has never happened!) The context, again is this:

Zechariah 14
1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

The same type of language is used here describing a historical event:

Mic 1:1 The word of the LORD that came to Micah the Morasthite in the days of Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah, which he saw concerning Samaria and Jerusalem.
Mic 1:2 Hear, all ye people; hearken, O earth, and all that therein is: and let the Lord GOD be witness against you, the Lord from his holy temple.
Mic 1:3 For, behold, the LORD cometh forth out of his place, and will come down, and tread upon the high places of the earth.
Mic 1:4 And the mountains shall be molten under him, and the valleys shall be cleft, as wax before the fire, and as the waters that are poured down a steep place.

If you’re looking for a pure river look no farther than Jesus himself:

Joh 4:10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.

There is no huge canyon on the mount of Olives, since that mountain has not yet split, since Jesus has not yet set His feet down there. There is no water proceeding out, and making the dead sea live once more. Yet this is what the preterist would have us believe.

Preterist and even many non-preterist understand the figurative nature of prophetic language. You obviously do not, that’s why you are waiting on milk to flow from hills.

Zephaniah 1
7Hold thy peace at the presence of the Lord GOD: for the day of the LORD is at hand: for the LORD hath prepared a sacrifice, he hath bid his guests.

Here is that catchy phrase once again: "at hand!" And once again, it is in reference to the "day of the Lord!" ONce again we see an event in this day, where God has prepared a great feast, called his guests, the nations, and called the vultures and buzzards too! His guests will be the great feast! Once again, we know that this did not happen in 70 AD

Here we go again, trying to take passages that speak of past events and making them future. You’re right, they did not happen in AD70, they happened in 586BC! This is speaking of the impending judgment by Babylon!

Zep 1:14 Near is the great day of Jehovah, Near, and hasting exceedingly, The noise of the day of Jehovah, Bitterly shriek there doth a mighty one.

It is near and hastens exceedingly. Lets do some math, the prophecy was given in 626BC and fulfilled in 586BC, well what do you know..40 years!

Once again, futurist,non-preterist John Gill:

Zep 1:2 - I will utterly consume all things from off the land, saith the Lord. That is, from the land of Judah, by means of the Chaldeans or Babylonians:

This is too easy.

For the history student: What happened to Moab in 70 AD? Ammon?

Nothing, what happened to it 500 years earlier?????? Perhaps you should find out what preterist believe before making these strange accusations.

Zechariah 14
9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.
12And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.
17And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
20In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD's house shall be like the bowls before the altar.
21Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts:

Is the LORD "king over all the earth?" No! Verse 12 describes a death like a nuclear blast! Again, that did not happen in 70 AD.

No, it just describes a Leviticus curse that Hal Lindsey’s imagination got a hold of.

Lev 26:16 I also do this to you, and I have appointed over you trouble, the consumption, and the burning fever, consuming eyes, and causing pain of soul; and your seed in vain ye have sowed, and your enemies have eaten it;

Isaiah 2:12
For the day of the LORD of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low:
19And they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth.
20In that day a man shall cast his idols of silver, and his idols of gold, which they made each one for himself to worship, to the moles and to the bats;
21To go into the clefts of the rocks, and into the tops of the ragged rocks, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth.

Again, a prophecy that points directly to the 6th seal, showing that the "day of the Lord" will start right after that.

I agree, but it points right to Judah and Jerusalem in the 1st century:

Isa 2:1 The thing that Isaiah son of Amoz hath seen concerning Judah and Jerusalem:

Isa 2:2 And it hath come to pass, In the latter end of the days, (Heb 1:2 in these last days did speak to us in a Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He did make the ages; )

Isaiah 13
9Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
10For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
11And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
12 I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir. 13Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.
9Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
10For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
11And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
12I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir.
13Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.

19And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the beauty of the Chaldees' excellency, shall be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah.
20It shall never be inhabited, neither shall it be dwelt in from generation to generation: neither shall the Arabian pitch tent there; neither shall the shepherds make their fold there.

Is God to punish Israel or the world, during this "day of the Lord?" Answer: the world. No, this is NOT speaking of 70 AD!

Right again! It doesn’t speak of AD70 and I know of no preterist who thinks it does. Anybody who can read has the ability to see this is a judgment on Babylon carried out by the Medes! Of course there is a reason you left out verse 17 isn’t there. I’ll provide it for the readers since you deceptively left it out:

Isa 13:17 Lo, I am stirring up against them the Medes, Who silver esteem not, And gold--they delight not in it.

And there is an equally deceptive reason you left out verse 18 because it gives details of the warfare:

Isa 13:18 And bows dash young men to pieces, And the fruit of the womb they pity not, On sons their eye hath no pity.

Bows! Don’t you take that literally or is this some sort of “code language†for missiles that only you and Hal Lindsey know?

I also noticed you picked up in verse 9 and left out the very important verse 1:

Isa 13:1 The burden of Babylon that Isaiah son of Amoz hath seen:

Gosh, kinda ruins your theory of some future event. So who do you think these future Medes are?

Jerimiah 46
10For this is the day of the Lord GOD of hosts, a day of vengeance, that he may avenge him of his adversaries: and the sword shall devour, and it shall be satiate and made drunk with their blood: for the Lord GOD of hosts hath a sacrifice in the north country by the river Euphrates.
10For this is the day of the Lord GOD of hosts, a day of vengeance, that he may avenge him of his adversaries: and the sword shall devour, and it shall be satiate and made drunk with their blood: for the Lord GOD of hosts hath a sacrifice in the north country by the river Euphrates.

Hmmm! Did Titus make it up to the River Euphrates too? No, it says, "the Lord God..."

Man, this is getting embarrassing. You should get your money back for the lousy book you are using. Thomas Ice perhaps?

Jer 46:1 That which hath been the word of Jehovah unto Jeremiah the prophet concerning the nations,
Jer 46:2 For Egypt, concerning the force of Pharaoh-Necho king of Egypt, that hath been by the river Phrat, in Carchemish, that Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon hath smitten, in the fourth year of Jehoiakim son of Josiah king of Judah:

Does it really need any comment? My what a little context does for a passage.

For the readers, perhaps now you can see why I will never be a preterist. It is simple too goofy to consider, when all these scriptures are taken together.

For the readers, perhaps now you understand when you ignore the context of OT passages you can prove anything. If you also ignore the nature of the language used by OT and NT prophets you can again prove just about anything. What lecoop fails to recognize is that there were many “days of the Lord†in the OT pertaining to different events. Lecoop and Van Impe lump them all in one and force them it into one event somewhere in our future despite how much damage it does to the context of those passages.

 

[lecoop]

Ezek 47
8 Then said he unto me, These waters issue out toward the east country, and go down into the desert, and go into the sea: which being brought forth into the sea, the waters shall be healed.
9 And it shall come to pass, that every thing that liveth, which moveth, whithersoever the rivers shall come, shall live: and there shall be a very great multitude of fish, because these waters shall come thither: for they shall be healed; and every thing shall live whither the river cometh.
10 And it shall come to pass, that the fishers shall stand upon it from Engedi even unto Eneglaim; they shall be a place to spread forth nets; their fish shall be according to their kinds, as the fish of the great sea, exceeding many.

:smt043 :smt043 :smt043

Perhaps Preterist can show us how to catch fish in "spiritual" water! He he he!


Zech 14
4And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

5And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

It would also be interesting to see how these people will flee through a "spiritual" valley! Hmm. It says "the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee!" This is sure in agreement with "dispie" thinking: we are coming back with Jesus! :smt041

Perhaps Preterist has never heard of a "double reference," or just does not believe in it. Many of these old testament references did indeed, speak of close events, but also make a reference to a future event, at the end of the age. This "dispie" knows that some of these references are to ancient babylon, but he also knows that they have a double reference to a future "day of the Lord." Why would John write something in 95 AD that was completed in 500+ BC? Of course, he did not. He wrote of future events.

Perhaps also, Preterist has not heard the lowing of cattle that are thirsty or hungry. Gill can call this ( the grass burned up) the work of catipillars if he chooses, and relate it to some ancient happening. However, it would, again, be foolish for John to write it as a future event, in 95 AD!

Yet another mistake by you. Young’s Literal Translation understands the greek word for “earth†has the meaning of “landâ€Â

Of course it is "land!" Have you ever seen green grass in the ocean? No, this judgement of the first angel, burns up the grass, not the ocean! Same with trees: they don't grow in an ocean! Theyar's has, among other things:

4) the earth as a whole
...a) the earth as opposed to the heavens
...b) the inhabited earth, the abode of men and animals

Sorry, but it still seems to be to be the entire earth, not Israel. Did you not read:

Rev. 8:13
13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!

By the way, could you explain how this would affect just Israel?

12 And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.

Preterists believe that these things were fulfilled in 70 AD. in Israel. Just Israel?

Rev 18:3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.

Rev 16:19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
Rev 11:9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

Perhaps Preterist can explain how this could happen in 70 AD? Perhaps Preterist will again try to explain away "nations" as Rome.

By the way, how many "rivers" are in Israel?

Rev 8:10 And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;

Referring back to the "Day of the Lord:" Locusts and caterpillars? How interesting that John wrote about the cosmic signs mentioned by Joel as happening before the day of the Lord, and John wrote this in 95 AD! Now Preterist will try to explain that Revelation was undoubted written before 70 AD. Good luck.

Adam Clarke:

Joe 2:20 -
I will remove far off from you the northern army - “That is, the locusts; which might enter Judea by the north, as Circassia and Mingrelia abound with them. Or the locusts may be thus called, because they spread terror like the Assyrian armies, which entered Judea by the north.

Unfortunately this is a common practice among modern futurist, take events that happened 4000 years ago and force them into our future.

4000 years ago? Preterist just can't see that John ties Joel into the future with the cosmic signs at the 6th seal, and wrote it about 95 AD! Yes, perhaps Joel did write of things that happened back then. However, John shows us that some of what Joel wrote had a double reference, pointing to a time future yet to John in 95 AD. The same can be said for the text in Isaiah 2. It was clearly pointing to a time in the future, and a time yet future to John in 95 AD, since John wrote almost the same words, of things taking place at the 6th seal.

SO what happens to all the people living on earth when the entire world is burned up? Don’t dispies have people still on earth after this event?

Most of them die. It is God's final judgement on the nations.

Quote:
2 I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.

Notice what this says: "I will gather all nations..." Sorry, but this would have been impossible then.


Exactly how was this impossible? Rome was made up of many nations and the region was called the “worldâ€Â.

Sorry, but this is Joel, who wrote this before the Roman Empire existed. What did Joel mean by "nations?" Here is another verse using the same word:

Mal 3:12 And all nations shall call you blessed: for ye shall be a delightsome land, saith the LORD of hosts.

But again, John writes about these things and points them to a time future to 95 AD:

Joel 3:2
I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.

Rev 16:12 The sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up to prepare the way for the kings from the East. 13Then I saw three evil[a] spirits that looked like frogs; they came out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14They are spirits of demons performing miraculous signs, and they go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them for the battle on the great day of God Almighty.

Sorry, preterest, but John wrote this about 95 AD, pointing to a time after you think all these things happened, clearly pointing to a time yet future to us. (Again, take a trip to the dead sea, and see how many fishermen you see fishing there.)

Once again your fatal flaw, forcing a literal fulfillment on a book full of OT symbols and imagery. Do you really want to get into a debate of how you take the book of Revelation literally? If so, it would be my pleasure.

(In reference to the angel calling the birds to come and feast, or to Jesus on the white horse. Apparently, Preterist does not believe Jesus the Christ will ride a white horse!

18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

John saw this battle in the realm of the spirit, or in a vision. You can spiritualize it if you choose. Either way, it was prophecied in the old testament, and John confirmed it to be a future event, writing about it in 95 AD.

Quote:
Neither did the mountains shall drop down new wine, and the hills shall flow with milk! Sorry, but this just did not happen! But notice what comes next: it is incontrovertible: "a fountain shall come forth out of the house of the LORD, and shall water the valley of Shittim!" Do we see this water today? No, for no one has seen it, and will never see it until this verse is fulfilled, when Jesus comes back bodily and sets his foot of the mount!


So you think literal wine shall drop from mountains? You really believe the hills will flow with literal milk?

Forget the wine and milk! Have you ever seen the fountain of water coming from the house of the Lord? I sure haven't! Yet People will be fishing one day in the dead sea!

Joh 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

He he! Try fishing out of Jesus' belly! :smt043

Preterist and even many non-preterist understand the figurative nature of prophetic language. You obviously do not, that’s why you are waiting on milk to flow from hills.

:smt043 Again, it will be interesting to see thousands of people fleeing through a figurative valley! :smt043

Zephaniah 1
7Hold thy peace at the presence of the Lord GOD: for the day of the LORD is at hand: for the LORD hath prepared a sacrifice, he hath bid his guests.

Here is that catchy phrase once again: "at hand!" And once again, it is in reference to the "day of the Lord!" ONce again we see an event in this day, where God has prepared a great feast, called his guests, the nations, and called the vultures and buzzards too! His guests will be the great feast! Once again, we know that this did not happen in 70 AD


Here we go again, trying to take passages that speak of past events and making them future. You’re right, they did not happen in AD70, they happened in 586BC! This is speaking of the impending judgment by Babylon!

Perhaps I read more into this chapter than what was there. Perhaps there is no "double reference" here. Yet again, John did write about inviting the nations and the birds to a feast - and they, the nations would be the feast!

It is late, and I will quit.

Coop

 

[preterist]

..

Ezek 47
8 Then said he unto me, These waters issue out toward the east country, and go down into the desert, and go into the sea: which being brought forth into the sea, the waters shall be healed.
9 And it shall come to pass, that every thing that liveth, which moveth, whithersoever the rivers shall come, shall live: and there shall be a very great multitude of fish, because these waters shall come thither: for they shall be healed; and every thing shall live whither the river cometh.
10 And it shall come to pass, that the fishers shall stand upon it from Engedi even unto Eneglaim; they shall be a place to spread forth nets; their fish shall be according to their kinds, as the fish of the great sea, exceeding many.



Perhaps Preterist can show us how to catch fish in "spiritual" water! He he he!

Hehehehe, maybe you should convince fellow futurist before convincing preterist:

Matthew Henry:

Eze 47:1-12 -
This part of Ezekiel's vision must so necessarily have a mystical and spiritual meaning that thence we conclude the other parts of his vision have a mystical and spiritual meaning also; for it cannot be applied to the waters brought by pipes into the temple for the washing of the sacrifices, the keeping of the temple clean, and the carrying off of those waters, for that would be to turn this pleasant river into a sink or common sewer. That prophecy, Zec_14:8, may explain it, of living waters that shall go out from Jerusalem, half of them towards the former sea and half of them towards the hinder sea. And there is plainly a reference to this in St. John's vision of a pure river of water of life, Rev_22:1. That seems to represent the glory and joy which are grace perfected. This seems to represent the grace and joy which are glory begun. Most interpreters agree that these waters signify the gospel of Christ, which went forth from Jerusalem, and spread itself into the countries about, and the gifts and powers of the Holy Ghost which accompanied it, and by virtue of which it spread far and produced strange and blessed effects. Ezekiel had walked round the

John Gill:

these waters issue out toward the east country; the Gospel was first preached in the eastern parts of the world; See Gill on Eze_47:3, or "towards the first, or east Galilee" (f); in Galilee Christ began to preach, and wrought his first miracle; here he called his disciples, and chiefly conversed; and here he had the greatest followers, and some of the first Christian churches were formed here after his ascension, Mat_4:12,

and go down into the desert; or wilderness, the wilderness of the people, the Gentiles; to whom the Gospel was carried when rejected by the Jews, and who before were like a desert, but now became as a fruitful field, Isa_35:1. The Jews (g) interpret this of the plain, or the sea of Galilee or Tiberius, at which Christ called his disciples; near to this he delivered his discourses concerning himself, the bread of life, and eating his flesh, and drinking his blood; here he met with his disciples after his resurrection, and enjoined Peter to feed his sheep and lambs; see Mat_4:18,

Zech 14
4And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

5And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

It would also be interesting to see how these people will flee through a "spiritual" valley! Hmm.

Hmmm, I guess this is a literal valley also. Please tell me where it is so I can avoid it:

Psa 23:4 Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.

Did this literally occur when John the Baptist came on the scene?

Isa 40:3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.
Isa 40:4 Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low: and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain:

Your lack of understanding of how this type of language is used doesn’t allow you to think beyond Tim LaHaye.

Perhaps Preterist has never heard of a "double reference," or just does not believe in it. Many of these old testament references did indeed, speak of close events, but also make a reference to a future event, at the end of the age.

Really? This is the first time you’ve mentioned this. You have backed yourself into such a corner that you must now play the “double-fulfillment†card. Lets review you’re your previous words:

“Here is that catchy phrase once again: "at hand!" And once again, it is in reference to the "day of the Lord!" ONce again we see an event in this day, where God has prepared a great feast, called his guests, the nations, and called the vultures and buzzards too! His guests will be the great feast! Once again, we know that this did not happen in 70 ADâ€Â

“Joel 1
15 Alas for the day! for the day of the LORD is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come.
How interesting, we see "at hand" here too!â€Â

You were dogmatic that it had not yet happened, now you do a 180. No, you came to this view in the last 24 hours when you ran out of other explanations.

Secondly, now that you’ve very recently come to this double-fulfillment theory you do understand that in order have a double fulfillment it had to have a first fulfillment. That means everything you said did not happen in the past did in fact happen. Lets review shall we:

“2 I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.

Notice what this says: "I will gather all nations..." Sorry, but this would have been impossible then.â€Â


“Neither did the mountains shall drop down new wine, and the hills shall flow with milk! Sorry, but this just did not happen! But notice what comes next: it is incontrovertible: "a fountain shall come forth out of the house of the LORD, and shall water the valley of Shittim!" Do we see this water today? No, for no one has seen it, and will never see it until this verse is fulfilled, when Jesus comes back bodily and sets his foot of the mount!â€Â

Though I’m sure you will never admit it, you have lost the argument by surrendering to the original fulfillment. Your argument that they are now future is rendered impotent.

Thirdly you now recognize that there were indeed more than one “day of the Lord’s†found in scripture.

Fourthly you must prove that they were meant to have more than one fulfillment. What is your proof?

Dr. John Brown (1852)
"Dr. Owen's remark is full of good sense-" If the Scripture has more than one meaning, it has no meaning at all: " and it is just as applicable to the prophecies as to any other portion of Scripture.' (Sufferings and Glories of the Messiah, p. 5, note.)
"It appears, then, that is Scripture be the best interpreter of Scripture, we have in the Old Testament a key to the interpretation of the prophecies in the New. The same symbolism is found in both, and the imagery of Isaiah, Ezekiel, and the other prophets helps us to understand the imagery of St. Matthew, St. Peter, and St. John. As the dissolution of the material world is not necessary to the fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy, neither is it necessary to the accomplishment of the predictions of the New Testament. But though symbols are metaphorical expressions, they are not unmeaning. It is not necessary to allegorise them, and find a corresponding equivalent for every trope; it is sufficient to regard the imagery as employed to heighten the sublimity of the prediction and to clothe it with impressiveness and grandeur. There are, at the same time, a true propriety and an underlying reality in the symbols of prophecy. The moral and spiritual facts which they represent, the social and ecumenical changes which they typify, could not be adequately set forth by language less majestic and sublime. There is reason for believing that an inadequate apprehension of the real grandeur and significance of such events as the destruction of Jerusalem and the abrogation of the Jewish economy lies at the root of that system of interpretation which maintains that nothing answering to the symbols of the New Testament prophecy has ever taken place. Hence the uncritical and unscriptural figments of double senses, and double, triple, and multiple fulfillments of prophecy. That physical disturbances in nature and extraordinary phenomena in the heavens and in the earth may have accompanied the expiring throes of the Jewish dispensation we are not prepared to deny. It seems to us highly probable that such things were. But the literal fulfillment of the symbols is not essential to the verification of prophecy, which is abundantly proved to be true by the recorded facts of history." (Discourses and Sayings of our Lord, vol. i. p.200).

This "dispie" knows that some of these references are to ancient babylon, but he also knows that they have a double reference to a future "day of the Lord."

Based on what? Please explain how Is. 13 will be fulfilled again and how you know it.

Why would John write something in 95 AD that was completed in 500+ BC? Of course, he did not. He wrote of future events.

You are quite confused on several fronts. Firstly, John didn’t write of events 500 years BC. Where do you get this foolish notion.

Secondly John wrote Revelation pre-AD70.

Philip Schaff (1877)
"On two points I have changed my opinion -- the second Roman captivity of Paul (which I am disposed to admit in the interest of the Pastoral Epistles), and the date of the Apocalypse (which I now assign, with the majority of modern critics, to the year 68 or 69 instead of 95, as before)." (Vol. I, Preface to the Revised Edition, 1882 The History of the Christian Church, volume 1)
"
The early date [of Revelation] is now accepted by perhaps the majority of scholars." (Encyclopedia 3:2036.)

"Tertullian’s legend of the Roman oil-martyrdom of John seems to point to Nero rather than to any other emperor, and was so understood by Jerome (Adv. Jovin. 1.26) (History 1:428.)

"The destruction of Jerusalem would be a worthy theme for the genius of a Christian Homer. It has been called "the most soul-stirring of all ancient history." But there was no Jeremiah to sing the funeral dirge of the city of David and Solomon. The Apocalypse was already written, and had predicted that the heathen "shall tread the holy city under foot forty and two months." (p. 397-398)

For those interested in this subject I highly recommend “Before Jerusalem Fell†by Kenneth Gentry.

Perhaps also, Preterist has not heard the lowing of cattle that are thirsty or hungry. Gill can call this ( the grass burned up) the work of catipillars if he chooses, and relate it to some ancient happening. However, it would, again, be foolish for John to write it as a future event, in 95 AD!

Again, you are confused. Gill’s comments were on an OT passage, not Revelation.

Of course it is "land!" Have you ever seen green grass in the ocean? No, this judgement of the first angel, burns up the grass, not the ocean! Same with trees: they don't grow in an ocean! Theyar's has, among other things:

4) the earth as a whole
...a) the earth as opposed to the heavens
...b) the inhabited earth, the abode of men and animals

Please, spare the theatrics. We both know the point was “region†as compared to “world-wideâ€Â. Not land verses ocean.

The “other things†Thayer has are these:

5) a country, land enclosed within fixed boundaries, a tract of land, territory, region

Sorry, but it still seems to be to be the entire earth, not Israel. Did you not read: 

Rev. 8:13 
13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!

Why should I assume entire earth? There is nothing in that that would lead to that conclusion. It sounds much like the woes found in Matthew 23.

Why not use this word if it is meant to mean entire world:

G2889
κόσμος
kosmos
Thayer Definition:
1) an apt and harmonious arrangement or constitution, order, government
2) ornament, decoration, adornment, i.e. the arrangement of the stars, ‘the heavenly hosts’, as the ornament of the heavens. 1Pe_3:3
3) the world, the universe
4) the circle of the earth, the earth

By the way, could you explain how this would affect just Israel?

12 And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.

Preterists believe that these things were fulfilled in 70 AD. in Israel. Just Israel?

Sir Isaac Newton:
"The figurative language of the prophets is taken from the analogy between the world natural and an empire or kingdom considered as a world politic. Accordingly, the world natural, consisting of heaven and earth, signifies the whole world politic, consisting of thrones and people, or so much of it as is considered in prophecy; and the things in that world signify the analogous things in this. For the heavens and the things therein signify thrones and dignities, and those who enjoy them: and the earth, with the things thereon, the inferior people; and the lowest parts of the earth, called Hades or Hell, the lowest or most miserable part of them. Great earthquakes, and the shaking of heaven and earth, are put for the shaking of kingdoms, so as to distract and overthrow them; the creating of a new heaven and earth, and the passing of an old one; or the beginning and end of a world, for the rise and ruin of a body politic signified thereby. The sun, for the whole species and race of kings, in the kingdoms of the world politic; the moon, for the body of common people considered as the king's wife; the starts, for subordinate princes and great men; or for bishops and rulers of the people of God, when the sun is Christ. Setting of the sun, moon, and stars; darkening the sun, turning the moon into blood, and falling of the stars, for the ceasing of a kingdom." (Observations on the Prophecies, Part i. chap. ii)

Moses Stuart (1836)
(On Heb. 12:25-29) "That the passage has respect to the changes which would be introduced by the coming of the Messiah, and the new dispensation which he would commence, is evident from Haggai ii. 7-9. Such figurative language is frequent in the Scriptures, and denotes great changes which are to take place. So the apostle explains it here, in the very next verse. (Comp. Isa. 13:13; Haggai 2:21,22; Joel 3:16; Matt. 24:29-37). (Hebrews, in loc.)


Milton Terry (1898)
"We sometimes, indeed, are meet with a disputant who attempts to evade the force of the above question by the plea that if we interpret one part of Jesus's discourse literally we are bound in consistency to treat the entire prophecy in the same way. So, on the other hand, it is urged that if Matt. 24:29-31, for example, be explained metaphorically, we must carry that same principle through all the rest of the chapter; and if the words "sun, moon, and heavens" in verse 29 are to be taken figuratively, so should the words "Judea," and "mountains," and "housetop," and "field" in other parts of the chapter be explained metaphorically! It is difficult to understand how such a superficial plea can be seriously put forward by one who has made a careful study of the Hebrew prophets. Every one of the Old Testament examples which have been cited above stands connected, like these apocalyptic saying of Jesus, with other statements which all readers and expositors have understood literally. The most proasic writer may at times express himself through a whole series of sentences in figurative term, and incorporate the extended metaphor in the midst of the plain narrative of facts. ...
Rev 18:3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.

Rev 16:19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
Rev 11:9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

Perhaps Preterist can explain how this could happen in 70 AD? Perhaps Preterist will again try to explain away "nations" as Rome.

Perhaps because preterist look at it from the perspective of those to whom the book was written. Wow, what a novel idea.

Josephus War of the Jews: Book 2, 18. 1
1.NOW the people of Cesarea had slain the Jews that were among them on the very same day and hour [when the soldiers were slain], which one would think must have come to pass by the direction of Providence; insomuch that in one hour's time above twenty thousand Jews were killed, and all Cesarea was emptied of its Jewish inhabitants; for Florus caught such as ran away, and sent them in bonds to the galleys. Upon which stroke that the Jews received at Cesarea, the whole nation was greatly enraged; so they divided themselves into several parties, and laid waste the villages of the Syrians, and their neighboring cities, Philadelphia, and Sebonitis, and Gerasa, and Pella, and Scythopolis, and after them Gadara, and Hippos; and falling upon Gaulonitis, some cities they destroyed there, and some they set on fire, and then went to Kedasa, belonging to the Tyrians, and to Ptolemais, and to Gaba, and to Cesarea; nor was either Sebaste [Samaria] or Askelon able to oppose the violence with which they were attacked; and when they had burnt these to the ground; they entirely demolished Anthedon and Gaza; many also of the villages that were about every one of those cities were plundered, and an immense slaughter was made of the men who were caught in them.

By the way, how many "rivers" are in Israel?

I don’t know, how many are in the land of Judea?

Referring back to the "Day of the Lord:" Locusts and caterpillars? How interesting that John wrote about the cosmic signs mentioned by Joel as happening before the day of the Lord, and John wrote this in 95 AD! Now Preterist will try to explain that Revelation was undoubted written before 70 AD. Good luck.

No luck needed. Just exactly what is your proof it was written later. Other than notes in your Scofield Bible?

Actually Luke also wrote of the events of Joel and proclaimed they were occurring on the day of Pentecost:

Act 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
Act 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
Act 2:18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
Act 2:19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
Act 2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
Act 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Yes, perhaps Joel did write of things that happened back then.

Thank You. My point exactly.

However, John shows us that some of what Joel wrote had a double reference, pointing to a time future yet to John in 95 AD. The same can be said for the text in Isaiah 2.

I made this point in a previous thread and never got a response. I’ll try again.

Isa 2:19 And they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth.

John does indeed record this same event:

Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

But what you leave out is that Jesus also quotes from this passage in Isaiah:

Luk 23:28 But Jesus turning unto them said, Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children.
Luk 23:29 For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck.
Luk 23:30 Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us.

So who does Jesus say this will happen to? The Daughters of Jerusalem! The very women he spoke to on the way to the Cross. That puts the fulfillment of both Is 2 and Rev 6 as a first century fulfillment.

Why does this judgment occur?

Isa 3:8 For Jerusalem is ruined, and Judah is fallen: because their tongue and their doings are against the LORD, to provoke the eyes of his glory.

Is this the futurists reason for the judgment in the last days?

(In reference to the angel calling the birds to come and feast, or to Jesus on the white horse. Apparently, Preterist does not believe Jesus the Christ will ride a white horse!

I thought He was coming on the Clouds? Horse-shaped Clouds perhaps?

Perhaps I read more into this chapter than what was there. Perhaps there is no "double reference" here.

Ya think? It's just lie all the others.


Zephaniah 1
7Hold thy peace at the presence of the Lord GOD: for the day of the LORD is at hand: for the LORD hath prepared a sacrifice, he hath bid his guests.

So this “day of the Lord†is a past event?

 

[lecoop]

"Day of the Lord."

What does it mean? Was it a "catch all" phrase for the OT, and used for whenever God would chastize a nation for misusing Israel, such as Assyria, then Babylon?

If so, then one MUST explain away the prophecy of Joel 2, and the prophecy of Isaiah 2, that point exactly to the 6th seal of Revelation. These verses on the 6th seal, were written in 95 AD, literally hundreds of years after Joel and Isaiah wrote. Please note these words:


Joel 2
31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the LORD come.

Compare with:

Rev 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

Were these just "figures of speech" with no meaning? If so, how could they be signs of a coming event, as God meant for them to be? No, the Holy Spirit is telling the readers, that when they see these signs in the sun and moon, that soon after, would come this time called "the Day of the Lord." It would start soon after the 6th seal was broken. Now look at Isaiah:

Isa. 2
10 Enter into the rock, and hide thee in the dust, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty.
12 For the day of the LORD of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low:

19 And they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth.

21 To go into the clefts of the rocks, and into the tops of the ragged rocks, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth.

Now compare with the 6th seal:

Rev 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake;...
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

There can be no doubt that John is writing about the fulfillment of both the Joel and Isaiah prophecy. Both of these prophecies mention the "day of the Lord."

Those of the preterist belief would have us all believe that John wrote before the destruction of Jerusalem, and what John wrote after chapter 6 was all accomplished in 70 AD. However, John was very careful to lay out the events of Revelation chapter 7 through chapter 16 as the 70th week of Daniel, a time frame covering exactly 7 years (Daniel's 70th week, and "Jacob's trouble"). This seven year period as written by John, shows the 7 trumpet judgements in the first half of the week and the vials and plagues in the second half of the week. We will show this in Revelation.

If the 6th seal points to the start of the "day of the Lord," coming immediately after, then what "realtime" event follows the 6th seal? Of course, the 7th seal follows the 6th seal. Therefore, the "day of the Lord," starts with the 7th seal.

Noticing then, that God chose to use a "7" to mark the beginning of the day of the Lord, one might wonder if He would use "7's" to mark the 70th week of Daniel. In fact, He did.

From the book of Daniel, we see that the abomination event would be in the "midst" of the week:

Daniel 9
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

We see than, that in some future "week" or "seven" that an event will split the week into two parts. This event will be the ceasing of the daily sacrifice, and the abomination.

Did this come to pass, as Daniel said? Yes.

Daniel 11
31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.

The "his" here was Antiochus Epiphanes. He did indeed stop the daily sacrifice,and did indeed perform an abomination.

"Antiochus Epiphanes was a great persecutor of the Jewish people. The apocryphal books of 1 and 2 Maccabees describe how he tried to stamp out Jewish religion, and in so doing slaughtered thousands of Jewish men, women, and children. In one of the worst acts in Jewish history, Antiochus desecrated the Temple by slaughtering a pig on the altar, forcing the priests to eat pork, and setting up an idol to Zeus. The Jews then abandoned the Temple, not wishing to go into a defiled place. That put a halt to the daily sacrifices (as predicted by Daniel 11:31), until the Jews regained control of the Temple during the Maccabean revolution."
http://www.biblebb.com/files/mac/sg2369.htm

We see then, what this event was, that Daniel called an "abomination." Antiochus desecrated the temple, by slaughtering an unclean animal and then by erecting an idol of Zeus!

Now, was this the complete end of the prophecy given by Daniel? No, this prophecy in Daniel had a second reference, meaning that it did refer to the events of Antiochus Epiphanes, but it also would have yet another fulfillment, much later. Notice these two verses in Daniel 11, that refer to "the end."

35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.
40 And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over.

What does Daniel mean by the "time of the end?" We shall see. However, please notice the last verse of this chapter in Daniel:

45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.

There can be little doubt that Daniel was prophecying about Antiochus, but this verse is about someone else. Students of history know that Antiochus did not die in the Holy Land! Yet Daniel says that this man did. Who, then, is the "he" in verse 45? Let's go on:

Dan 12
Daniel 12
1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

From verse 2, we see that Daniel is speaking of a resurrection. Did Daniel or the other OT saints rise from the dead in 70 AD? What time is "that time" that Daniel refers to in verse 1? We will get to that. First, let's look at what Jesus said:

Matt 24
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand


How interesting: Jesus also refers to the "end." It is clear then, that when Antiochus desecrated the temple, 167 BC, it was not "the end" that Daniel was speaking of. So then, what is the end that Daniel spoke of, and Jesus repeats? It will be the "end" when the resurrection takes place. Now notice that Jesus mentions "the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet." Therefore, Daniel's prophecy was not completely fulfilled with Antiochus, and pointed to a time future to Jesus; and time of the "end."

We now have several questions to answer: who was the "he" that Daniel was speaking of. When is this time of "the end?" We know from Daniel 12:2 above, that it must be a time of resurrection. Let's look and see what Jesus said would be after this abomination event:

Mat 24
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Please notice that Daniel said something almost the same in 12:1: "there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation."

Therefore, we know that after this abomination event spoken of by Jesus, there will come a time of intense persectution; a time of trouble: "Jacob's trouble." Daniel speaks further of this time of trouble:

Dan 7
25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Notice that Daniel said that the saints would be given into "his" hands for a "time, times, and the dividing of time." (3 1/2 years) This time frame makes sense, since Jesus shows that the time of intense persection would start at the abomination event, which Daniel said would come in the midst, or middle of the week. Therefore, this abomination event splits the week into two equal halves of 3 1/2 years. We will see further proof of this. Daniel speaks further on this time frame of 3 1/2 years:

Dan 12
6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?
7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

We see again, a time of 3 1/2 years. In the next post, we will carry these thoughts over into the book of Revelation, and show that John also speaks of these same events, pointing to a time yet future to 95 AD.

Coop