Bible Study BLASPHEMY of the HOLY SPIRIT = The Unpardonable Sin??

[for_his_glory]

And the context is that of a warning and it is address to those who are not weak struggling Christians.
Changing the metaphor.
To a drowning man you would say get swimming lessons.

That is what I mean by a smouldering flame of faith. One doesn't chuck a bucket of petrol over it, but gentle fan it and feed it fuel.

Is not a smoldering flame become lukwarm until it burns out, but if you put a little kindling to it, it will begin to flame again. Those whose heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed, Matthew 13:14, 15, they are given a chance to repent before God spews them out of His mouth, Rev 3:14-19, and give them over to a reprobate mind as they harden their heart against Him, Romans 1:28-32.

 

[Boaz]

I pretty much agree with everything you say. I think, correct me if I am wrong, we disagree on whether a Christian can commit the unpardonable sin. And our differing view is because we are starting from different theological points. We both know what that is and it also involves OSAS so no need to discuss THAT! Also we are using the word enlightened differently. Language is so wonderful yet often very confusing as we can't see into anothers mind!
You say a Christian can be born again but not enlightened and I gather that you are speaking of the ever increasing knowledge that comes with maturing in Christ. The way I am using the word is in reference to a person who is a participating in Christian communites, so has heard and has as head knowledge, everything necessary for salvation, and they have witnessed activity of the Holy Spirit among believers, knows He exists and His role in salvation and in the believers lives. Yet it does not penetrate to his heart.The one who commits the U.P. sin, is one with this knowledge who for whatever reason comes to a place of genuine hatred and rejection and cursing of the Holy Spirit. The hardening of such a person to a place where they cannot repent I believe is done by God, as the Bible says this, and it is a judicial hardening, an irreverrsible judgement, different than the natural hardening that is the effect of repeated sin.
Since we, you and I have the particular theological differences that we do, I accept with love, that you will not agree! LOL
I do have a question though, and it is sincere. I would like to know if there is a Biblical answer out of this. If a Christian, indwelt by the Holy Spirit, commits the U,S. , is that not in effect Satan casting out the Holy Spirit? Something we know is impossible,

OSAS vs OSNAS is no longer allowed to be discussed in the forums any longer. You can read the scrolling message at the top of the page.

Romans 1:28 it is God that turns them over to a reprobate mind as they no longer retain God in their knowledge as for whatever reason they have allowed them self to come to a place of pure hatred and rejection as they curse (speak evil) against the Holy Spirit which is the unpardonable sin that will never be forgiven.

Another good scripture is Matthew 13:14, 15 and Rev 3:15, 16 as their heart has become dull and their ears can barely hear and their eyes they have closed as they have become lukewarm and hardened their heart and God will spew them out of His mouth.

If one is Spiritually maturing being led and taught by the Holy Spirit they keep moving forward in the Holy Spirit who gives us understanding and wisdom of all God wants us to learn as we are enlightened into all truths. These are the ones who have tasted and know that the Lord is good and hear the voice of the Master.
[/QUOTE]
I know about the OSAS prohibition. That's what I said. We won't discuss it. Just pointing out WHY we have reached different interpretation of the U.S.
Here is what I believe about Romans 1:28. Paul is not talking about Christians. He is talking about ALL mankind after the fall. He states that everyone ever born or will be born knows of God's existence because it is evident in the creation, the natural world. In the beauty, the perfection, the faithfulness of days seasons and complexity; in the DESIGN. But as fallen people we choose to ignore that so He turned us over to this reprobate mind, which of course, left to its own devices, becomes ever more perverted. There really is no such thing as an atheist. We all know at some level God exists, we are denyers. There is no salvation message in God's revelation of Himself in nature, only His existence and attributes. That revelation comes through history etc. In His Word. That particular passage in Romans has nothing to do with Christian maturity or lack of it. Nothing to do with Christians at all, other than we are in need of a Savior.
Therefore, it is possible, just a bit possible, that the other scriptures you reference as being about Christian maturity, might be a slight shade off the mark. Christian maturity of course is very important and is dealt with in the Bible.
But I did not get a clear answer, May be my own vision problem about whether or not committing the U.S. by a Christian would be a casting out of the Holy Spirit by the enemy.

 

[for_his_glory]

Matthew 12:15-21 You must read all these verses to get the context but the critical verse is 20. "A bruised reed he will not break, and a smouldering wick He will not snuff out." I agree that appears at first glance to contradict Rev. 3:16 but of course know that there is no contradiction in the Bible because there is no contradiction in God. There are many places where it looks like two opposing teachings. The way to settle the apparent contradiction is to start with the one that is perfectly clear in relation to other places of clarity on the same subject , then examine our interpretation of the seeming contraction to see where we may be misinterpreting. This requires the entire context of the scripture, taking into account who, what where, when and why.
So the Matthew scripture is clear and lines up with , just for one example for sake of space, John 10:21-30. Also John 6:37-40.
That being the case, what would be Another possible interpretation of Rev. 3:16?

There is no contradiction between the two as both are about those who repent and turn to Jesus who will not despise the brokenhearted, but given the chance will heal the bruised reed and the smoking flax.

Matthew 12:1-21 is the prophecy given to Isaiah, Isaiah 42:1-4, first given in Genesis 49:10 and fulfilled in Luke 3:22 as Jesus (Shiloh) come and the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased. This gave the people hope that Messiah had truly come.

A reed that is bruised may be damaged, but not irreparable and a smoldering wick may be about to lose it's fire altogether, but it can still be reignited. The prophecy that Jesus fulfilled is that of His tenderness and compassionate care for the weak and downtrodden. Those who come to Jesus He will not despise. They have the promise that God sent Him to bind up the brokenhearted, Isaiah 61:1

 

[Boaz]

There is no contradiction between the two as both are about those who repent and turn to Jesus who will not despise the brokenhearted, but given the chance will heal the bruised reed and the smoking flax.

Matthew 12:1-21 is the prophecy given to Isaiah, Isaiah 42:1-4, first given in Genesis 49:10 and fulfilled in Luke 3:22 as Jesus (Shiloh) come and the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased. This gave the people hope that Messiah had truly come.

A reed that is bruised may be damaged, but not irreparable and a smoldering wick may be about to lose it's fire altogether, but it can still be reignited. The prophecy that Jesus fulfilled is that of His tenderness and compassionate care for the weak and downtrodden. Those who come to Jesus He will not despise. They have the promise that God sent Him to bind up the brokenhearted, Isaiah 61:1

Well I guess you figured out a way to make it all come out according to your plan!. ? I also still disagree. It never says that Jesus, if given the CHANCE He will heal the broken reed etc. It says He WILL and that HE WILL NOT put out a smouldering flax.
But still. Where is the answer to my question.?

 

[for_his_glory]

OSAS vs OSNAS is no longer allowed to be discussed in the forums any longer. You can read the scrolling message at the top of the page.

Romans 1:28 it is God that turns them over to a reprobate mind as they no longer retain God in their knowledge as for whatever reason they have allowed them self to come to a place of pure hatred and rejection as they curse (speak evil) against the Holy Spirit which is the unpardonable sin that will never be forgiven.

Another good scripture is Matthew 13:14, 15 and Rev 3:15, 16 as their heart has become dull and their ears can barely hear and their eyes they have closed as they have become lukewarm and hardened their heart and God will spew them out of His mouth.

If one is Spiritually maturing being led and taught by the Holy Spirit they keep moving forward in the Holy Spirit who gives us understanding and wisdom of all God wants us to learn as we are enlightened into all truths. These are the ones who have tasted and know that the Lord is good and hear the voice of the Master.

I know about the OSAS prohibition. That's what I said. We won't discuss it. Just pointing out WHY we have reached different interpretation of the U.S.
Here is what I believe about Romans 1:28. Paul is not talking about Christians. He is talking about ALL mankind after the fall. He states that everyone ever born or will be born knows of God's existence because it is evident in the creation, the natural world. In the beauty, the perfection, the faithfulness of days seasons and complexity; in the DESIGN. But as fallen people we choose to ignore that so He turned us over to this reprobate mind, which of course, left to its own devices, becomes ever more perverted. There really is no such thing as an atheist. We all know at some level God exists, we are denyers. There is no salvation message in God's revelation of Himself in nature, only His existence and attributes. That revelation comes through history etc. In His Word. That particular passage in Romans has nothing to do with Christian maturity or lack of it. Nothing to do with Christians at all, other than we are in need of a Savior.
Therefore, it is possible, just a bit possible, that the other scriptures you reference as being about Christian maturity, might be a slight shade off the mark. Christian maturity of course is very important and is dealt with in the Bible.
But I did not get a clear answer, May be my own vision problem about whether or not committing the U.S. by a Christian would be a casting out of the Holy Spirit by the enemy.
[/QUOTE]

Romans 1:18-32 is about the reason for Gentile guilt and the results of it that God turns them over to a reprobate mind as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge even though it was manifested in them because God showed it unto them.

In a sense this can also be the same with a Christian that has not allowed themselves to Spiritually mature as they turn back to the lust of the world as they are unprincipled and cause damnation to be brought upon them in God's judgement.

And I agree as there is no such thing as an atheist as they will argue God, thus establishing that there is one, but denying there is.

 

[for_his_glory]

Well I guess you figured out a way to make it all come out according to your plan!. ? I also still disagree. It never says that Jesus, if given the CHANCE He will heal the broken reed etc. It says He WILL and that HE WILL NOT put out a smouldering flax.
But still. Where is the answer to my question.?

Maybe I said it wrong as it is the brokenhearted that need Jesus and need to come to Him.

It's been a crazy week so far going with hubby to a couple doctor visits and my computer has a lag and I need to go to the Library and use their WiFi to update as I'm still on slow dial-up.

Can you refresh my mind as to the question you asked as I completely forgot.

 

[Boaz]

Maybe I said it wrong as it is the brokenhearted that need Jesus and need to come to Him.

It's been a crazy week so far going with hubby to a couple doctor visits and my computer has a lag and I need to go to the Library and use their WiFi to update as I'm still on slow dial-up.

Can you refresh my mind as to the question you asked as I completely forgot.

?
So sorry for your troubles and your crazy week. Prayers that you are doing well after Dr visit and that you get the computer up to speed.
The question evolves out of my perspective on the topic so if I phrase it wrong, forgive me.
If a Christian can commit the unpardobable sin wouldn't that in effect be the Holy Spirit being cast out of the person by the enemy? That is why to me it would be a house divided.

 

[for_his_glory]

?
So sorry for your troubles and your crazy week. Prayers that you are doing well after Dr visit and that you get the computer up to speed.
The question evolves out of my perspective on the topic so if I phrase it wrong, forgive me.
If a Christian can commit the unpardobable sin wouldn't that in effect be the Holy Spirit being cast out of the person by the enemy? That is why to me it would be a house divided.

It's actually hubby that is Doctoring right now as he has blockage in his legs and next Wed will go see a cardiologist. We are concerned, but gave it to God.

As per your question I hope this answer's it.

The enemy (Satan) has no power or authority over the Holy Spirit just like all of us have no power and authority over the Spirit, but the enemy can cause great devastation in a Christians life that is so horrendous that it can cause them to lose total faith and trust in God as they speak evil against His Holy Spirit.

This might help us understand what blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is all about in a simpler understanding. It's a conscious and hardened opposition to the truth because the Spirit is truth. Conscious and hardened resistance to the truth leads man away from humility and repentance and without repentance there can be no forgiveness. Because of defiance they refuse to let the Holy Spirit speak to them. The only unpardonable sin is refusing to let God pardon you.

If a house be divided against itself that house cannot stand as sin and righteousness can not coexist in the house of God as the Temple of God is within us.

 

[Boaz]

It's actually hubby that is Doctoring right now as he has blockage in his legs and next Wed will go see a cardiologist. We are concerned, but gave it to God.

As per your question I hope this answer's it.

The enemy (Satan) has no power or authority over the Holy Spirit just like all of us have no power and authority over the Spirit, but the enemy can cause great devastation in a Christians life that is so horrendous that it can cause them to lose total faith and trust in God as they speak evil against His Holy Spirit.

This might help us understand what blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is all about in a simpler understanding. It's a conscious and hardened opposition to the truth because the Spirit is truth. Conscious and hardened resistance to the truth leads man away from humility and repentance and without repentance there can be no forgiveness. Because of defiance they refuse to let the Holy Spirit speak to them. The only unpardonable sin is refusing to let God pardon you.

If a house be divided against itself that house cannot stand as sin and righteousness can not coexist in the house of God as the Temple of God is within us.

But if the Holy Spirit dwells in a person, wouldn't He come to the aid of a person experiencing such devastation? Why would He stand by and let the person commit the sin of no return?
The Bible tells us that when we believe in Jesus I.e. have saving faith, (and by believe I mean knowing who He is and what He did, the required beliefs for salvation), that ALL our sins are forgiven because Jesus already paid the price or us. Therefore a Christian WON'T commit that sin. The only sin that is unforgivable is rejecting Jesus, in which case none of a person's sins are forgiven. It is the Holy Spirit that applies the work that Jesus did to us. It is the Holy Spirit that gives us the new birth. He who quickened our hearts and brought us near and pointed us towards Jesus. Rejecting salvation IS rejecting the Holy Spirit.
My prayers are with you and your husband.

 

[JLB]

believe.

So the Christian should not be decieve.

The Bible is filled with warnings of “do not be deceived “.



JLB

 

[atpollard]

The Bible is filled with warnings of “do not be deceived “.

The Bible is filled with admonitions to repent and be saved ... Christians (the Saved or Elect or those predestined for Glorification) hear and obey; those who do not hear and obey the call to repent are not Christians.

The Bible is filled with warnings of “do not be deceived” and those empowered by the Holy Spirit to hear and obey (Christians) will heed the warnings and will not be deceived; those who do not hear and obey the warnings are not Christians.

 

[JLB]

The Bible is filled with admonitions to repent and be saved ... Christians (the Saved or Elect or those predestined for Glorification) hear and obey; those who do not hear and obey the call to repent are not Christians.

How about those who hear the Gospel, but don’t obey?


JLB

 

[JLB]

The Bible is filled with warnings of “do not be deceived” and those empowered by the Holy Spirit to hear and obey (Christians) will heed the warnings and will not be deceived; those who do not hear and obey the warnings are not Christians.

The way you are coming across, it sounds like you are saying that the Christians, are Christians before they hear and obey, rather than they “became” Christians “because” they hear and obey.


JLB

 

[JLB]

R

The Bible is filled with warnings of “do not be deceived” and those empowered by the Holy Spirit to hear and obey (Christians) will heed the warnings and will not be deceived; those who do not hear and obey the warnings are not Christians.

Sorry bro, but the warnings are given to Christians.



JLB

 

[Who Me]

The Bible is filled with warnings of “do not be deceived “.



JLB

More to the point is what I said about preparing oneself so one is not received.

 

[atpollard]

How about those who hear the Gospel, but don’t obey?
JLB

Is a disciple of Christ someone that hears about Christ, or someone that is transformed by the encounter with Christ and follows Christ?

[I believe ... the latter.]

 

[atpollard]

The way you are coming across, it sounds like you are saying that the Christians, are Christians before they hear and obey, rather than they “became” Christians “because” they hear and obey.

JLB

No, I am saying that the Gospel is proclaimed for the benefit of those that will obey it and is of no value to those that HEAR it and ignore it ... in EXACTLY the same way, the Warning in the Bible are written for the benefit of those that read and heed them, but the warnings are of no value to those without “ears to hear”.

That is why both comments were presented in a single post, even though you have chosen to respond to each as if the other did not exist.

 

[atpollard]

Sorry bro, but the warnings are given to Christians.

JLB

Yes they are, because the reprobate “goats“ and “tares” have neither the spiritual “ears to hear them” nor the empowering indwelling of the Holy Spirit to enable them to obey. To offer spiritual wisdom to “fools” is to cast your pearls before swine.

 

[JLB]

Is a disciple of Christ someone that hears about Christ, or someone that is transformed by the encounter with Christ and follows Christ?

[I believe ... the latter.]

A disciple is a follower of Jesus Christ.

The disciple may or may not continue to follow the Lord.

He may fall away, or he may continue steadfast to the end.




JLB

 

[JLB]

No, I am saying that the Gospel is proclaimed for the benefit of those that will obey it and is of no value to those that HEAR it and ignore it ...

Agreed.

in EXACTLY the same way, the Warning in the Bible are written for the benefit of those that read and heed them, but the warnings are of no value to those without “ears to hear”.

Agreed.


Do you believe a person must believe in order to become saved, or do you believe a person must be saved in order to believe?



JLB