Bible Study BLASPHEMY of the HOLY SPIRIT = The Unpardonable Sin??

[JLB]

Yes they are, because the reprobate “goats“ and “tares” have neither the spiritual “ears to hear them” nor the empowering indwelling of the Holy Spirit to enable them to obey.

Tares, sons of the wicked one, can never be sons of the kingdom.


As to your reference to “reprobate goats”, maybe you could post the scripture you are referring to, so we can discuss it.



JLB

 

[atpollard]

Do you believe a person must believe in order to become saved, or do you believe a person must be saved in order to believe?

JLB

I believe Ephesians 2:1-10

 

[atpollard]

Tares, sons of the wicked one, can never be sons of the kingdom.

Can goats become sheep?

 

[JLB]

I believe Ephesians 2:1-10

So do I.


Do you believe a person must believe in order to become saved, or do you believe a person must be saved in order to believe?


If you believe a person must be saved first, in order to believe, then how does a person become saved?


For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16

• whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

They way we are saved, according to the scriptures is to believe.


that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Romans 1:9-10

• For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Each person must believe and obey the Lord, in order to receive eternal salvation.


And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, Hebrews 5:9



He gives us grace, (thank God) to do these things, nevertheless it’s up to each of us to do the believing and obeying.



JLB

 

[Boaz]

So do I.


Do you believe a person must believe in order to become saved, or do you believe a person must be saved in order to believe?


If you believe a person must be saved first, in order to believe, then how does a person become saved?


For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16

• whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

They way we are saved, according to the scriptures is to believe.


that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Romans 1:9-10

• For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Each person must believe and obey the Lord, in order to receive eternal salvation.


And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, Hebrews 5:9



He gives us grace, (thank God) to do these things, nevertheless it’s up to each of us to do the believing and obeying.



JLB

Atpollared
I'm going to jump in here. Hope no one minds.
I realize confusion as to the order of salvation can be misunderstood in the scriptures you quote. Or rather understood the way that you and many understand them. I will quote some scriptures and then continue with a different way in which they can be understood.
John3:5-8 "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. You should not be surprised at my saying, you must be born again. The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born OF THE SPIRIT."
John 1:12,13 "Yet to all who received Him, to those who believed (already believed, already saved) in His name, He gave right to become children of God------ children born not of natural descent, nor of HUMAN DECISION or a husband's will, but BORN OF GOD"
So we see that it is the Holy Spirit that gives, causes the new birth.
Ephesians 2:8-10 "For it is by GRACE you have been saved, THROUGH FAITH and this (Faith, salvation), NOT FROM YOURSELVES , it is the GIFT of God----not by WORKS( our choice or decision, or behavior), so that no one can boast. For we are GOD'S workmanship, created in Chist Jesus---".
John 6:65 "And He said ,'therefore I have said to you that NO ONE CAN come to Me unless it has been GRANTED to him by the Father.'"

 

[Boaz]

Atpollared
I'm going to jump in here. Hope no one minds.
I realize confusion as to the order of salvation can be misunderstood in the scriptures you quote. Or rather understood the way that you and many understand them. I will quote some scriptures and then continue with a different way in which they can be understood.
John3:5-8 "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. You should not be surprised at my saying, you must be born again. The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born OF THE SPIRIT."
John 1:12,13 "Yet to all who received Him, to those who believed (already believed, already saved) in His name, He gave right to become children of God------ children born not of natural descent, nor of HUMAN DECISION or a husband's will, but BORN OF GOD"
So we see that it is the Holy Spirit that gives, causes the new birth.
Ephesians 2:8-10 "For it is by GRACE you have been saved, THROUGH FAITH and this (Faith, salvation), NOT FROM YOURSELVES , it is the GIFT of God----not by WORKS( our choice or decision, or behavior), so that no one can boast. For we are GOD'S workmanship, created in Chist Jesus---".
John 6:65 "And He said ,'therefore I have said to you that NO ONE CAN come to Me unless it has been GRANTED to him by the Father.'"

Sorry hit wrong button. I wasn't done.
In light of that is it possible that when the Bible says believe and you will be saved, it is stating the requirement of salvation, belief, meaning IF you believe you ARE saved, rather than making request for them to believe, or explaining the ORDER of salvation?

 

[JLB]

Atpollared
I'm going to jump in here. Hope no one minds.
I realize confusion as to the order of salvation can be misunderstood in the scriptures you quote. Or rather understood the way that you and many understand them. I will quote some scriptures and then continue with a different way in which they can be understood.
John3:5-8 "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. You should not be surprised at my saying, you must be born again. The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born OF THE SPIRIT."
John 1:12,13 "Yet to all who received Him, to those who believed (already believed, already saved) in His name, He gave right to become children of God------ children born not of natural descent, nor of HUMAN DECISION or a husband's will, but BORN OF GOD"
So we see that it is the Holy Spirit that gives, causes the new birth.
Ephesians 2:8-10 "For it is by GRACE you have been saved, THROUGH FAITH and this (Faith, salvation), NOT FROM YOURSELVES , it is the GIFT of God----not by WORKS( our choice or decision, or behavior), so that no one can boast. For we are GOD'S workmanship, created in Chist Jesus---".
John 6:65 "And He said ,'therefore I have said to you that NO ONE CAN come to Me unless it has been GRANTED to him by the Father.'"

Great, so maybe you could answer my question.

1. Do you believe that a person must believe, in order to be saved?
2. Do you believe you must be saved in order to believe?
   
   

 

[Boaz]

Great, so maybe you could answer my question.

1. Do you believe that a person must believe, in order to be saved?
2. Do you believe you must be saved in order to believe?
   

I believe you must be saved (reborn, born again) in order to believe. Which I explained in post 87 to Atpollard which I think I meant to post to you.

 

[JLB]

Sorry hit wrong button. I wasn't done.
In light of that is it possible that when the Bible says believe and you will be saved, it is stating the requirement of salvation, belief, meaning IF you believe you ARE saved, rather than making request for them to believe, or explaining the ORDER of salvation?

I believe the scriptures teach us that we must believe in order to be saved.

I believe you must be saved (reborn, born again) in order to believe.

If one is saved, born again, before they believe then how is one saved?


JLB

 

[LovethroughDove]

Did someone post the scripture right after Matt 12:31?

Matthew 12:32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or the age to come.

Jesus spells it out. He is "Son of Man"/Human and "Son of God"/Holy Spirit. The Pharisees were saying he was a demon - - -Now their fate depends on what their intentions for saying this were. It is all about intent. Did they say it because they really thought he is evil? Or did they say it because they were scared? Did they say it because they've never seen something like this?

If they truly thought his powers came from the devil? Probably blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Boaz]

I believe the scriptures teach us that we must believe in order to be saved.







If one is saved, born again, before they believe then how is one saved?


JLB

By the Holy Spirit performing a new birth in the person as Jesus explained to Nicodemus. This causes the sinner to be both willing and able to believe the truth about Jesus. It opens their ears to hear, their eyes to see (understand and believe.) The preparation, in a sense, is ongoing their entire life up to conversion, but the new birth always involves hearing, whether through spoken or written word, the Gospel message.

 

[JLB]

By the Holy Spirit performing a new birth in the person as Jesus explained to Nicodemus. This causes the sinner to be both willing and able to believe the truth about Jesus. It opens their ears to hear, their eyes to see (understand and believe.) The preparation, in a sense, is ongoing their entire life up to conversion, but the new birth always involves hearing, whether through spoken or written word, the Gospel message.

You said a person is saved, born again FIRST, then they can believe the Gospel.


How is a person saved, born again iif not by believing the Gospel.


JLB

 

[JLB]

By the Holy Spirit performing a new birth in the person as Jesus explained to Nicodemus.

Of course it’s by the Holy Spirit.

That action of the Holy Spirit is predicated on a person believing the Gospel, first.


that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. Romans 10:9


The condition for being saved is predicated on believing the Gospel, as we see the word IF, stated as the condition.




Your claim is the contrary, that a person must be saved first, before he has the ability to believe the Gospel.


How does a person become saved, if not by believing the Gospel?




JLB

 

[Boaz]

Of course it’s by the Holy Spirit.

That action of the Holy Spirit is predicated on a person believing the Gospel, first.


that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. Romans 10:9


The condition for being saved is predicated on believing the Gospel, as we see the word IF, stated as the condition.




Your claim is the contrary, that a person must be saved first, before he has the ability to believe the Gospel.


How does a person become saved, if not by believing the Gospel?




JLB

He DOES become saved by believing the Gospel. I'm saying the REASON he believes is because the Holy Spirit opened his eyes to see and his ears to hear. Before the Holy Spirit did this he had ears but could not hear, and having eyes, he could not see. It is really a simultaneous action, like Faith and justification.
And why is it not possible that the IF in your reference falls underneath my previous explanation on believe and be saved.
IF you confess with your mouth------ it is BECAUSE you are saved. Otherwise, you wouldn't. It is not the confession that MAKES it so., but the other way around. Because you believe these things in your heart, you confess with your mouth. Possible? Doesn't mean You AGREE, but is it POSSIBLE this is the way of things. That it is not totally out of left field and unreasonable, but a perfectly legitimate alternative for others to believe?

 

[GodsGrace]

Here is what I believe about the unpardonable sin.
It is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit as the Bible says, but what exactly IS that and how is it different than blasphemy against the Son or the Father?
First, and as comfort, because I know a lot of Christians, me once included, fear this, I think it is impossible for a true Christian to commit this sin. A true and real Christian has the Holy Spirit indwelling them and if they could commit this sin it would be the house divided against itself that Jesus spoke of.

Hi B,
Been busy...can't remember if I answered this.

The above is true, but I'd like to speak to the blaspheming of the Holy Spirit and HOW that is different from speaking badly about the Father or the Son.

The Father is the creator and we owe the entire universe and everything in it to Him...It is HE that thought to make this planet for our habitation and to make Himself be known to us.

The Son is the Word of God...He brought everything into existence as the Father had the thoughts...HE is the one that was spoken of from the beginning accounting to Him the forgiveness of sins of the whole world and who would make accessible the doors of heaven to those that would accept God's conditions.

The Holy Spirit, OTOH, is the Person of the Trinity that is responsible for convincing us of our sins, letting us see the sinner we are and it is up to Him to guide us into life everlasting. If we speak against the very person that is supposed to be allowing us to see our sin...then how would we ever become aware of it?

This is my understanding...I'm sure there's more.

When a person is in Christ, (born again, redeemed, converted, however we say it) ALL their sins are forgiven because it is not our OWN righteousness, but the righteousness of CHRIST, that is counted as our own. Only this one is unforgivable. What is the difference?
It is it's relation to the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit's work is to enlighten the mind of sinners (Eph 1:17,18), reveal and teach the Gospel (John 14:26, to persuade us to repent and to believe the truth(Acts 7:51). He explains the word of God and He opens the mind so it is understood.2Cor.3:16,17.
It is when His influence is deliberately, knowingly refused, opposing the light, then the U.P. can be committed as a voluntary and informed act of MALICE. These people have seen and understood, but have not been converted. And yes, then there is a hardening done by God that rules out repentance and faith. Heb. 3:12,13. God PERMITS the human will to be permanent in this case.
If a person wants to repent they have not suffered this hardening. He has not committed that profound act of hatred towards His love.
Again: anyone who has been born again will not commit this sin.

B,
You've answered your own question much better than I have!

 

[GodsGrace]

They associated the work that He was doing as being done by Satan, which I'm sure is what you are saying. Therefore Jesus identified that with blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Again, what you said. It is a malicious, having been enlightened, (the Pharisees knew full well only God can cast out demons and the work of the Holy Spirit in this), hatred of the Holy Spirit. They were not saved. They rejected Jesus even though they knew from scripture of the Messiah and the works that He would do. They did not have e Holy Spirit in them. Jesus did.
As for the hardening, I contend from the many times the Bible says so that it is God who hardens a heart. In the case of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, and maybe in all cases, I of course don't know, it is a judicial hardening. God will not do this to one of His own, who have been purchased by the blood of Jesus. And I still believe that though I agree with your explanation of Matthew 12, I also believe that a Christian, indweltby the Holy Spirit would be a house divided if they blasphemed the Holy Spirit. It is Satan who hates Him. He would HAVE to be involved and also wouldn't it amount to Satan casting Him out of the person.

I know FHG that I say these things as though they are absolute indisputable fact, (my bad) but it is just a conversation, telling you what I personally believe. I enjoy our conversation. Not about right and wrong, no matter what I may sound like at times.☺

B,
I agree with you that a Christian cannot blaspheme the Holy Spirit....But I also agree with for_his_glory that once someone leaves the faith,,,at that point they CAN commit this sin.

But a Christian cannot.

 

[Boaz]

B,
I agree with you that a Christian cannot blaspheme the Holy Spirit....But I also agree with for_his_glory that once someone leaves the faith,,,at that point they CAN commit this sin.

But a Christian cannot.

Fair enough. ?

 

[HeIsRisen2018]

B,
I agree with you that a Christian cannot blaspheme the Holy Spirit....But I also agree with for_his_glory that once someone leaves the faith,,,at that point they CAN commit this sin.

But a Christian cannot.

Unless of course they repent of it since I was a Christian back in my childhood, left the faith when I was an adolescent, and then repented of it and came back to it in my adulthood. I mostly blame the kind of church I went to before though as it was all fire and brimstone and scary. Thank God I met JohnDB and he showed me that not all Baptists are like that because I had a fear of Baptists up until that point.

 

[GodsGrace]

I too have been enjoying our discussion and even if we disagree that's OK as long as we keep the unity of love flowing.

Let me explain myself afresh about those who blasphemy against the Holy Spirit as I don't think I have explained it very well, especially in light of what is written in Hebrews 6:1-8.

When I said I knew some that were on fire for the Lord and all of that, I thought more about them and it's impossible that they could have walked away blaspheming the Holy Spirit if they were truly enlightened.

What it all breaks down to is one speaking evil against the Holy Spirit that once might have had some understanding, but have now let their house be divided as they go back to the harden heart that God once changed to a new heart as they have gone back to following their own will as they no longer walk in the Spirit, nor did they allow themselves to mature in the Spirit, Ezekiel 36:26.

How can one blasphemy the Holy Spirit if they never knew there was one, so in order to speak evil against the Holy Spirit one had to have had known that there is one being a part of the Godhead.

Hi FHG,,,
The above highlighted is a very interesting comment, which I have never thought about.

You say one has to know there IS a Holy Spirit in order to blaspheme against Him.

But, have you considered, all those that do not believe, are, in effect, rejecting the Holy Spirit...they did not have to be a Christian first, or even know that He is part of the Godhead.

Rejecting the Holy Spirit IS the Unpardonable Sin which will lead to being eternally lost.

Hebrews 6:1-8 is speaking about maturity as we are to leave the principles of the doctrines of Christ (milk) and move on to perfection (meat) no longer laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and faith toward God. For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, and have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, if they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

The principles of the Doctrine of Christ.
What are they?
This will make a good thread....

Those who walk away and speak evil (blasphemy) against the Holy Spirit are those who never matured in the knowledge and wisdom of the word of God, even when they were Spiritually born again, but never enlightened.

So if one is mature and enlightened, they will not fall away and/or blaspheme the Holy Spirit? I do believe that the Jews in Hebrews 6 were not mature in their new faith.

 

[GodsGrace]

Unless of course they repent of it since I was a Christian back in my childhood, left the faith when I was an adolescent, and then repented of it and came back to it in my adulthood. I mostly blame the kind of church I went to before though as it was all fire and brimstone and scary. Thank God I met JohnDB and he showed me that not all Baptists are like that because I had a fear of Baptists up until that point.

Whatever sin we feel sorrow for,,,God will forgive.
And, yes, unfortunately the church we go to will affect us in some way. What churches should be doing is showing us the love of God so that we could love Him back and WANT to follow as disciples of His.....
By force, nothing seems to work, either in "religion" or anything else in life.