Born again or not

[daninthelionsden]

So many wolves and so many tares. Scary and can be lonely really.

I can only speak for myself and my walk alone on this. I used to really be erratic in my walk...blown by the wind. Even to this day circumstances and emotions can get the better of me at times. But, when things really changed for me, was when I asked my wife to baptize me in our swimming pool and I began to put on His yoke and start bringing myself into obedience to HIM.

 

[jerry63935]

The historical term for the new birth event is regeneration, which suggests someone doing something To o For another. Probably why that word went out of fashion!

when G.W Bush was in office i heard him say he was not familiar with word Born again i am thinking Billy Graham may have mentioned it to him . in another forum non Christian a lady who attended a anglican Church in the u.k use to get mad at me call me a new birther . said her Church never used that .i M NOT %100 certain on the name ..i dont even remember what she called her pastor ,, i looked it up but that has been years ago

 

[TonyFaithAlone]

many claim to be christians that are not i call it head salvation ,but if truly born again then yes you are a Christian

You're implying you don't need to use your head to understand and believe in something? Or are you talking about knowing what believing mean but not living the faith?

 

[TonyFaithAlone]

I can only speak for myself and my walk alone on this. I used to really be erratic in my walk...blown by the wind. Even to this day circumstances and emotions can get the better of me at times. But, when things really changed for me, was when I asked my wife to baptize me in our swimming pool and I began to put on His yoke and start bringing myself into obedience to HIM.

I'm trying to be helpful here but have you believed that Jesu Christ died for your sins on the cross for the gift of eternal life and he was resurrected three days later to justify your faith before you were baptized again?

 

[jerry63935]

You're implying you don't need to use your head to understand and believe in something? Or are you talking about knowing what believing mean but not living the faith?

the only thing you need your head for/mind is to understand what does romans 10:10 say with the heart man believes with the mouth confession many people only have it in there head / the think in there own mind prov reads there is a way that seems right what is our heart Christ stands at the door and knocks the door of heart physical organ or our very inner being . yes our mind has to understand simple faith that you /me acknowledge /believe every thing christ done for us and can forgive us simple as a .accept b believe c confess .the plan of salvation is so simple a child can understand

 

[TonyFaithAlone]

Yes. By the Holy Spirit. Regeneration is the historical term used and I suspect it lost popularity because of what is implied by the word regenerate. It suggests that something is being done for you so you can believe rather than you are doing something to yourself. Me, I'm grateful for that as I would never have gotten there on my own!

I heard a lot of different definitions about what 'regeneration' means throughout the past decade. The only clear and right definition I found in the bible is something said by Paul, 'be transformed by the renewing of your minds. So that you will know what the good, pleasing, and perfect will of God is.'. So it's just about getting educated on a particular subject. The bible wrote about how some Berean were more noble than most because they fact check the apostle Paul preached with the old testament. I believe the Berean understood what regeneration mean according to the will of God.

How do you define 'regeneration'?

 

[for_his_glory]

Yes we know because Jesus told us, there would be tares growing among the wheat, so He is not talking about the world around us but within our gatherings. Or people claiming to be one of us, believers, who or not. And He tells us to leave them be lest when we tear them up it takes some of the wheat with it. I think we can all discern the various ways that could happen.
My greatest curiosity was whether or not the meaning of being borne again, as Jesus used it, has worked its way back into the teaching in our pulpits. Evidently not everywhere right? It is important I feel.
I know those who are not of th Reformed beliefs, but at least have an understanding of Jesus's phrase, will differ from me on how the new birth occurs and of course there is no point in getting in an argument over that! The historical term for the new birth event is regeneration, which suggests someone doing something To o For another. Probably why that word went out of fashion!

When certain words like that of born again seem to go out of fashion as some say, then so does all the word of God as many say some of the teachings of Christ are not for today. Many also love to change the terminology to fit their own belief.

Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever. 9 Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines. For it is a good thing that the heart be established with grace; not with meats, which have not profited them that have been occupied therein.

 

[Boaz]

Hi again. Most often you hear regeneration being pushed by those who lean heavily on systematic theology which in my view falls short in many ways. Primarily by way of discernment because systematic theology forces a narrative and context on the text that again in my view does not accurately portray the original narrative to which the original listeners would have heard and understood it.

When I think of being born again, I think about what Jesus says about a kernel of wheat. If it does not fall to the ground, it will not die in order that it be reborn and produce a crop.

This is similar to discipleship and the parable of the sower. We all go through trials but the goal is producing more disciples. Often, that means that we need to endure trials and on occasion, God requires our pruning. It isn't pleasant, but it all works to the good for those who love God.

What can be difficult is discerning a tare and a believer who stumbles and perhaps is going through a trial and is getting choked out. Peter went through the same trials we will all go through and most notably, Peter even goes so far to deny Jesus.

Is this to say Peter wasn't "regenerate" or even to say as much that he was a tare? I dont think so. It was part of his discipleship... The sower casting seed... We all have our weakness and those need to die inside of us so we can fully trust Jesus because it is so much more than our moments of courage when we step out of the boat and we walk on water.

At cf.net, we try to recognise this on other people who call themselves Christians, even if they look very little like Jesus. What we do know is this. The world will know we are Christians by the love we show for one another. Jesus tells us that we will know a tree by it's fruit and that means having enough patience to wait till another season for it to occur.

Well. The seed needing to fall into the ground so that it will grow a whatever the seed is and bare fruit is a parable and Jesus talking about being reborn is not. The seed parable is making an analogy of His death and resurrection which is necessary in order for the fruit that is believers to be produced.
As to our discernment be ing preferred to systematic interpretation, problem is our discernment is faulty at best, kind of hit and miss about whether we got it right or not. I don't see that systematic interpretation forces anything in to a text. It is the proper way to interpret or translate ANYTHING. The safest and surest method we have to best ascertain what the writer ACTUALLY MEANT by the words they use. True if we are reading a novel for example we appear to be discerning what the author is saying but in reality we are bringing all the things used in systematic translation into play. It just seems easier to do automatically with a novel. In truth it is just as easy with the Bible. We just keep getting ourselves in the way. Things like what we have already heard or been taught, the traditions of our particular denomination, even what we WANT it to mean. Each passage in the Bible has only ONE MEANING. And that meaning is the meaning that God meant. There may be more than one application, it may remind of another scripture or narrative. For instance the writing on Esther going before the king, and the king extending his scepter to her for admittance to his thrown reminds me of the Hebrew verses where it says that through the blood of Jesus, and the sacrifice of His body, we come before His throne of grace to receive mercy in our time of need. The account of Esther REMINDS me of that, complete with mental pictures, but Esther' s story is an actual historic account, the Hebrews passage is actual Christian doctrine.

I heard a lot of different definitions about what 'regeneration' means throughout the past decade. The only clear and right definition I found in the bible is something said by Paul, 'be transformed by the renewing of your minds. So that you will know what the good, pleasing, and perfect will of God is.'. So it's just about getting educated on a particular subject. The bible wrote about how some Berean were more noble than most because they fact check the apostle Paul preached with the old testament. I believe the Berean understood what regeneration mean according to the will of God.

How do you define 'regeneration'?

Of course regeneration has a definition that can be applied to what you said. It is not a Biblical word, Jesus used the expression born again. I was explaining that historically, in the earlier periods of the Church, what Jesus called being born again was referred to as regeneration, I suppose they were using common language of the day. So in this sense it is REFERENCE to being born again. The objection to it is that it is saying that we have to be born again, or regenerated, in order to choose Christ. That as fallen humans we are unable to choose Christ, ("we are at enmity with God") until God does something FOR us that changes that condition. A lot of people don't like this and that is ok. We remember making that choice after all for the most part. That wasn't always the case again, historically. Up until a couple of hundred years ago there was no altar call. People went to church, usually from childhood. And they heard the gospel. They either believed it or not. Believing is the only requirement. The proper order in my OPINION is we are regenerated by God, "born from above", then we choose Jesus. But----- no matter which way you think about it, if you made the choice, you're ok.

 

[for_his_glory]

the only thing you need your head for/mind is to understand what does romans 10:10 say with the heart man believes with the mouth confession many people only have it in there head / the think in there own mind prov reads there is a way that seems right what is our heart Christ stands at the door and knocks the door of heart physical organ or our very inner being . yes our mind has to understand simple faith that you /me acknowledge /believe every thing christ done for us and can forgive us simple as a .accept b believe c confess .the plan of salvation is so simple a child can understand

Many call themselves a Christian, but have not Christ in their heart nor the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. These are the tares in the church as they only give lip service to the Lord as they know nothing about being Spiritually born again and rely on a carnal interpretation of the word. They will stand before the Lord someday and He will say to them He never knew them, Matthew 7:21.

 

[TonyFaithAlone]

the only thing you need your head for/mind is to understand what does romans 10:10 say with the heart man believes with the mouth confession many people only have it in there head / the think in there own mind prov reads there is a way that seems right what is our heart Christ stands at the door and knocks the door of heart physical organ or our very inner being . yes our mind has to understand simple faith that you /me acknowledge /believe every thing christ done for us and can forgive us simple as a .accept b believe c confess .the plan of salvation is so simple a child can understand

If that's the case then I believe you understand there are no distinctions between a Christian and a born-again Christian.

Well. The seed needing to fall into the ground so that it will grow a whatever the seed is and bare fruit is a parable and Jesus talking about being reborn is not. The seed parable is making an analogy of His death and resurrection which is necessary in order for the fruit that is believers to be produced.
As to our discernment be ing preferred to systematic interpretation, problem is our discernment is faulty at best, kind of hit and miss about whether we got it right or not. I don't see that systematic interpretation forces anything in to a text. It is the proper way to interpret or translate ANYTHING. The safest and surest method we have to best ascertain what the writer ACTUALLY MEANT by the words they use. True if we are reading a novel for example we appear to be discerning what the author is saying but in reality we are bringing all the things used in systematic translation into play. It just seems easier to do automatically with a novel. In truth it is just as easy with the Bible. We just keep getting ourselves in the way. Things like what we have already heard or been taught, the traditions of our particular denomination, even what we WANT it to mean. Each passage in the Bible has only ONE MEANING. And that meaning is the meaning that God meant. There may be more than one application, it may remind of another scripture or narrative. For instance the writing on Esther going before the king, and the king extending his scepter to her for admittance to his thrown reminds me of the Hebrew verses where it says that through the blood of Jesus, and the sacrifice of His body, we come before His throne of grace to receive mercy in our time of need. The account of Esther REMINDS me of that, complete with mental pictures, but Esther' s story is an actual historic account, the Hebrews passage is actual Christian doctrine.

Of course regeneration has a definition that can be applied to what you said. It is not a Biblical word, Jesus used the expression born again. I was explaining that historically, in the earlier periods of the Church, what Jesus called being born again was referred to as regeneration, I suppose they were using common language of the day. So in this sense it is REFERENCE to being born again. The objection to it is that it is saying that we have to be born again, or regenerated, in order to choose Christ. That as fallen humans we are unable to choose Christ, ("we are at enmity with God") until God does something FOR us that changes that condition. A lot of people don't like this and that is ok. We remember making that choice after all for the most part. That wasn't always the case again, historically. Up until a couple of hundred years ago there was no altar call. People went to church, usually from childhood. And they heard the gospel. They either believed it or not. Believing is the only requirement. The proper order in my OPINION is we are regenerated by God, "born from above", then we choose Jesus. But----- no matter which way you think about it, if you made the choice, you're ok.

Let me try to understand you through a biblical lense (I feel safer that way).

You say 'regeneration' is another word for being 'born-again' and being born again mean you have gotten the gift of eternal life. But you cannot get the gift of eternal life until you are found in Christ. And you cannot be found in Christ until God does something for you.

So what does God gotta do for you in order for you to be found in Christ? I can only assume you're gonna say, 'you must be pre-selected among the human population before the foundation of the world for you to be found in Christ'. So that mean God has to be your parents and not your earthly one (the children that's born of a child of God is excluded). And the bible say those who believed in the gospel of Jesus Christ gained the right to be God's children. In other words the something that God has to do for you is to send his son into the world as a human being to die for your sins on the cross and raised him up three days later to justify God's work for you.

The bible say the holy spirit convict the world of sin because of 'unbelief'. So unbelief is that one and only thing that's holding people back from being able to 'choose christ's. I suppose that is the enmity toward God that you spoke of.

Let me know If I had interpreted something wrong.

 

[daninthelionsden]

I'm trying to be helpful here but have you believed that Jesu Christ died for your sins on the cross for the gift of eternal life and he was resurrected three days later to justify your faith before you were baptized again?

As an adult I was only baptized once. I was baptized as an infant, but I don't hold infant baptism to be valid as it is not biblical. The Lord put on my heart to be baptized and I obeyed.

 

[jerry63935]

Many call themselves a Christian, but have not Christ in their heart nor the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. These are the tares in the church as they only give lip service to the Lord as they know nothing about being Spiritually born again and rely on a carnal interpretation of the word. They will stand before the Lord someday and He will say to them He never knew them, Matthew 7:21.

yes i covered that but the tares still have a chance to turn into wheat

 

[jerry63935]

As an adult I was only baptized once. I was baptized as an infant, but I don't hold infant baptism to be valid as it is not biblical. The Lord put on my heart to be baptized and I obeyed.

baptism never saved anyone .like you i don't do infant baptism baptism follows salvation

 

[Boaz]

If that's the case then I believe you understand there are no distinctions between a Christian and a born-again Christian.


Let me try to understand you through a biblical lense (I feel safer that way).

You say 'regeneration' is another word for being 'born-again' and being born again mean you have gotten the gift of eternal life. But you cannot get the gift of eternal life until you are found in Christ. And you cannot be found in Christ until God does something for you.

So what does God gotta do for you in order for you to be found in Christ? I can only assume you're gonna say, 'you must be pre-selected among the human population before the foundation of the world for you to be found in Christ'. So that mean God has to be your parents and not your earthly one (the children that's born of a child of God is excluded). And the bible say those who believed in the gospel of Jesus Christ gained the right to be God's children. In other words the something that God has to do for you is to send his son into the world as a human being to die for your sins on the cross and raised him up three days later to justify God's work for you.

The bible say the holy spirit convict the world of sin because of 'unbelief'. So unbelief is that one and only thing that's holding people back from being able to 'choose christ's. I suppose that is the enmity toward God that you spoke of.

Let me know If I had interpreted something wrong.

I am having a little trouble following exactly what you are saying/asking so forgive me if I miss it. My perspective is from the Reformed position so take it for what it is. My beliefs, not me saying people who don't believe this way are wrong or trying to change anyone's mind. I can only answer your question from my perspective. I realize I will be subject to verbal attack but I hope that doesn't happen. It is not something I intend to argue about.

Being born again or regenerated means that God, in His grace, has given you the gift of faith. That is, the willingness and ability to put your trust in Jesus for salvation.
Ephesians 2; 1-9 "And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins,in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the Prince of the power of the air, the Spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by NATURE children of wrath, just as the others.
But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were DEAD in trespasses, MADE US ALIVE together with Christ (by Grace you have been saved), and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that in the ages to come He might show the richness of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by Grace you have been saved THROUGH FAITH, and that not of yourselves; it is the GIFT OF GOD, not of works, lest anyone should boast."

Caps above are all mine to draw attention to key words.
It is God who places you in Christ.
And I didn't say God knew His own before the foundation of the world. God said it. Eph. 1:3-6 "Blessed be our God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we as should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself according to the good pleasure of His will-----"

God of course has already sent His Son who has already died and ascended into Heaven. What God needs to do for us now is something else we cannot to for ourselves. He has to give us Faith to believe. He does this by a work of the Holy Spirit (a new birth in effect that overrides the seed of sin we are born with which is what makes us unwilling to turn to God) who makes us not only able but willing to choose Christ. It takes Faith to believe the things in the Bible. To our carnal minds, it is nonsense. A virgin birth, a resurrection of the dead, a sacrificial death of another to save us. Not sure what you were asking about earthly parents. Obviously they are still our parents. The new birth is not a rebirth of our physical selves. It is a spiritual awakening.

 

[jerry63935]

i fully under stood your question of being saved vs born again

The new birth is not a rebirth of our physical selves. It is a spiritual awakening.

amen to that .i am well aware of the reformed theology. regardless of how we think the process takes place .its a spiritual birth unless the spirit draws us there will be no salvation . me personally i hold to free will .but neither free will or reformed will save .its done in part through the Blood of jesus

 

[stovebolts]

baptism never saved anyone .like you i don't do infant baptism baptism follows salvation

I believe baptism plays a part in our salvation and within scripture, is normative.

Acts 2: Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

We see here that Peter believe both repentance and water baptism play a role in the forgiveness of sins and the promise of receiving the Holy Spirit.

Many misunderstand baptism and it's role in salvation.

 

[jerry63935]

I believe baptism plays a part in our salvation and within scripture, is normative.

Acts 2: Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

We see here that Peter believe both repentance and water baptism play a role in the forgiveness of sins and the promise of receiving the Holy Spirit.

Many misunderstand baptism and it's role in salvation.

baptism follows salvation its the cross of christ payment of sins the resurrection gives us new life. baptism follows statement to the world one is ready to follow christ. 2 symbolic.the old man is buried and the new man comes to new life . baptism is important but not essential to be born again. i get the holy ghost the moment i am /any of us was saved paul wrote in romans whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved . there probably numerous souls saved at the midnight hour that never was baptized.. LORD save me from a true heartfelt cry /deathbed repentance. your welcome to your belief and i have mine

 

[stovebolts]

baptism follows salvation its the cross of christ payment of sins the resurrection gives us new life. baptism follows statement to the world one is ready to follow christ. 2 symbolic.the old man is buried and the new man comes to new life . baptism is important but not essential to be born again. i get the holy ghost the moment i am /any of us was saved paul wrote in romans whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved . there probably numerous souls saved at the midnight hour that never was baptized.. LORD save me from a true heartfelt cry /deathbed repentance. your welcome to your belief and i have mine

This is why I stay away from systematic theology. It moves us away from the original narrative.

 

[jerry63935]

i only go by what my bible reads

 

[for_his_glory]

yes i covered that but the tares still have a chance to turn into wheat

Of course the tares (those of unbelief) have a chance as we were all tares at one time.