Brothers of Jesus?

[donadams]

All the sons had the same father, so unless you want to argue that Joseph had other wives, your argument doesn’t really work. Not to mention that it is pure speculation that Jesus’s brothers and sisters could have come from other women.

A plain reading of the Bible leads to the most plausible belief that Jesus actually had half-brothers and sisters through Mary and Joseph. Anything else is speculation.

I don’t agree you’re opposing Christ and his revealed truth always taught by holy mother church, yes you will find it in scripture
Matt 16:18-19 & 18:18 & 18:17
Jn 20;21 Matt 28:19 eph 4:5 Jude 1:3

Only Christ is born of Mary according to scripture!

Matt 1:16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.

Only one son!

Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Matt 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Lk 1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name Jesus.

Thee son of Mary! Singular!

Mark 6:3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary…

Singular!


Gen 3:15 I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel.

Seed: singular only one!

Matt 1:16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.

Only christ is born of Mary according to scripture:

Matt 1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

Only the Holy Ghost conceived in Mary according to scripture:

Lk 1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name Jesus.

A son singular

Biblical principles

Ezekiel 44:2 “This gate shall remain shut; it shall not be opened, and no one shall enter by it; for the Lord, the God of Israel, has entered by it; therefore it shall remain shut.”

Song of Solomon 4:12 A garden inclosed is my sister, my spouse; a spring shut up, a fountain sealed.


Lk 1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name Jesus.

A son singular not a family:

Lk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

Only the God-man is born of a Virgin-mother


Perpetual Virginity of Mary!

Mary conceived "without any detriment to her virginity, which remained inviolate even after his birth" (apostolic Council of the Lateran, 649) with the jurisdictional authority of Peter and the apostles in holy council! Matt 16:18 18:18 Jn 20:21-23 eph 2:20 bound on earth bound in heaven!

The Bible never says anyone is a biological child of Mary accept for Jesus Christ!

And the Bible says Her child is holy! And Her child is God!

Is 7:14 God provides a sign, a Virgin shall conceive and bear a son! (Singular, one son)

Ezekiel 44:2 “This gate shall remain shut; it shall not be opened, and no one shall enter by it; for the Lord, the God of Israel, has entered by it; therefore it shall remain shut.”

Song of Solomon 4:12 A garden inclosed is my sister, my spouse; a spring shut up, a fountain sealed.

(Mary had become the temple & dwelling place of the Almighty, like the Ark of the Covenant in the Old Testament. Mary was a vessel consecrated to God alone?)

Matt 1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

(The Bible says only the Holy Ghost conceived in Mary)

Matt 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
(A son singular) (only Jesus is savior)

Lk 1:28 Hail Mary, full of Grace, the Lord is with thee!

Blessed art thou amongst all women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.
(The fruit of Her womb is blessed and holy)

Lk 1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name Jesus.
(A son, singular)

Lk 1:34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
(This verse imply’s a vow of perpetual virginity, She refuses even the exalted dignity of mother of God and mother of our savior if it means violating Her vow of perpetual virginity)

Lk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
(Her son is God)

Matt 1:25 He knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name Jesus.

2 Samuel 6:23 tells us: Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child UNTIL the day of her death.

Are we to assume that Michal had children after she died?

Until only states that they had no relation up to that point, the Bible does not say they had sex ever, before or after that point!

Lk 1:34 no sex ever!

First born does not imply a second born. An only child is still first born!

The Bible says Joseph a just and therefore a chaste man, it does not say he has gone into Mary anywhere in scripture, 2 Sam 12:24 And David comforted Bathsheba his wife, and went in unto her, and lay with her: and she bare a son, and he called his name Solomon: and the Lord loved him. Gen 4:1 Adam knew his wife, Lk 1:34 betrothed to Joseph say “I know no man, scripture Never says this about a Joseph, for He was full of fear and reverence for Her immaculate purity and holiness! Especially after hearing from an angel that her child was of the Holy Spirit! Joseph was full of joy to be the guardian of Mary and her purity!


Isa 66:7 Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.

8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.

9 Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith the Lord: shall I cause to bring forth, and shut the womb? saith thy God.

10 Rejoice ye with Jerusalem, and be glad with her, all ye that love her: rejoice for joy with her, all ye that mourn for her:

11 That ye may suck, and be satisfied with the breasts of her consolations; that ye may milk out, and be delighted with the abundance of her glory.

12 For thus saith the Lord, Behold, I will extend peace to her like a river, and the glory of the Gentiles like a flowing stream: then shall ye suck, ye shall be borne upon her sides, and be dandled upon her knees.

13 As one whom his mother comforteth, so will I comfort you; and ye shall be comforted in Jerusalem

Adam and Eve were married in the garden but did not have sex, marriage is made by consent not sex!

Brothers and sisters of Jesus?

They are not the children of Mary!

Is 7:14 a virgin shall conceive and bear a son!
(One son, singular)

James is the son of zebedee, and the other James is the son of Alpheus not Joseph!
Matt 10:2-3

In Hebrew culture any close relative can be called brother or sister, lot was called Abraham’s brother but was his nephew.

Gen 12:5 and Abram took Sarai his wife, and Lot his brother's son..

Gen 13:8 And Abram said unto Lot, Let there be no strife, I pray thee, between me and thee, and between my herdsmen and thy herdsmen; for we are Brothers.

The 12 sons of Jacob are brothers but all are not the children of Leah and all are not the children of Rachel! They had 4 mother’s, These may be brothers but they are simply not the children of One mother and the brothers of Jesus are not the children of Mary!

Brothers of Jesus Not the children of Mary!

Matthew 13:55
Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?

Mk 15:40 There were also women looking on afar off: among whom was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the less and of Joses, and Salome;

Matthew 27:56
Among which was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joses, and the mother of Zebedees children.

Acts 4:36
And Joses, who by the apostles was surnamed Barnabas, (which is, being interpreted, The son of consolation,) a Levite, and of the country of Cyprus,

(Cannot be Mary’s child, Mary was of the tribe of Judah and the royal house of David the king!) Lk 1:32-33

Is Mary the mother of James?
If you mean the Blessed Virgin Mary then no. Her sister-in-law, Mary of Clopas, was the wife of Alphaeus (St. Joseph's brother), and mother of Simon, Joseph, and the apostles Judas Thaddeus, and James (the Less, brother of the Lord): Jesus' cousins.

The "sisters" of Jesus refer to women disciples

Salome, or Mary Salome, was the wife of Zebedee, and mother of apostles John (the beloved), and James (the greater).

Regarding Mat. 13:55 and Mk. 6:3, two of the four "brethren" are James and Judas of Alphaeus (cf. Mat. 10:2-3, Lk. 6:15-16, Act. 1:13). The third, Joseph, is identified in Mk. 15:40 as the brother of James of Alphaeus. The fourth, Simon, is identified in Mat. 13:55 and Mk. 6:3 as the brother of Joseph, James, and Judas of Alphaeus. Therefore, all four are were the sons of Alphaeus, not St. Joseph and the Blessed Virgin Mary.

 

[donadams]

When Jesus was twelve they went up to Jerusalem, the holy family, Joseph, Mary, and Jesus. Where are the brothers and sisters?

Jesus on the cross gives His mother to John, why? Why not James or a brother? Perhaps the law of Moses requires a mother to be given to the next oldest son? Because he was an only Son!
Only begotten of the Father, only begotten of the Mother.

Only God can be born of a Virgin-mother!

First born does not imply a second born. An only child is still first born!

Martin Luther

It is an article of faith that Mary is Mother of the Lord and still a virgin. … Christ, we believe, came forth from a womb left perfectly intact. (Weimer’s The Works of Luther, English translation by Pelikan, Concordia, St. Louis, v. 11, pp. 319-320; v. 6. p. 510.)

John Calvin

(On the Heretic Helvidius) Helvidius displayed excessive ignorance in concluding that Mary must have had many sons, because Christ’s “brothers” are sometimes mentioned. (Harmony of Matthew, Mark and Luke, sec. 39 [Geneva, 1562], vol. 2 / From Calvin’s Commentaries, translated by William Pringle, Grand Rapids, Michigan: Eerdmans, 1949, p.215; on Matthew 13:55)

[On Matt 1:25:] The inference he [Helvidius] drew from it was, that Mary remained a virgin no longer than till her first birth, and that afterwards she had other children by her husband . . . No just and well-grounded inference can be drawn from these words . . . as to what took place after the birth of Christ. He is called “first-born”; but it is for the sole purpose of informing us that he was born of a virgin . . . What took place afterwards the historian does not inform us . . . No man will obstinately keep up the argument, except from an extreme fondness for disputation. (Pringle, ibid., vol. I, p. 107)

Under the word “brethren” the Hebrews include all cousins and other relations, whatever may be the degree of affinity. (Pringle, ibid., vol. I, p. 283 / Commentary on John, [7:3])

John Wesley

‘I believe that He [Jesus] was made man, joining the human nature with the divine in one person; being conceived by the singular operation of the Holy Ghost, and born of the blessed Virgin Mary, who, as well after as before she brought Him forth, continued a pure and unspotted virgin’ (‘Letter to a Roman Catholic’, The Works of Rev. John Wesley, vol 10, p. 81).


St Augustine, Sermons 186.1 (early 5th century):

“In being born of a Virgin who chose to remain a Virgin even before she knew who was to be born of her, Christ wanted to approve virginity rather than to impose it. And he wanted virginity to be of free choice even in that woman in whom he took upon himself the form of a slave” (Holy Virginity 4:4 [A.D. 401]).

“It was not the visible sun, but its invisible Creator who consecrated this day for us, when the Virgin Mother, fertile of womb and integral in her virginity, brought him forth, made visible for us, by whom, when he was invisible, she too was created. A Virgin conceiving, a Virgin bearing, a Virgin pregnant, a Virgin bringing forth, a Virgin perpetual. Why do you wonder at this, O man?” (Sermons 186:1 [A.D. 411]).

“Heretics called Antidicomarites are those who contradict the perpetual virginity of Mary and affirm that after Christ was born she was joined as one with her husband” (Heresies 56 [A.D. 428]).

St Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica, III.28.3 (13th century):

"Without any hesitation we must abhor the error of Helvidius, who dared to assert that Christ's Mother, after His Birth, was carnally known by Joseph, and bore other children.

For, in the first place, this is derogatory to Christ's perfection: for as He is in His Godhead the Only-Begotten of the Father, being thus His Son in every respect perfect, so it was becoming that He should be the Only-begotten son of His Mother, as being her perfect offspring.

“Secondly, this error is an insult to the Holy Ghost, whose "shrine" was the virginal womb, wherein He had formed the flesh of Christ: wherefore it was unbecoming that it should be desecrated by intercourse with man.

“Thirdly, this is derogatory to the dignity and holiness of God's Mother: for thus she would seem to be most ungrateful, were she not content with such a Son; and were she, of her own accord, by carnal intercourse to forfeit that virginity which had been miraculously preserved in her.

“Fourthly, it would be tantamount to an imputation of extreme presumption in Joseph, to assume that he attempted to violate her whom by the angel's revelation he knew to have conceived by the Holy Ghost.

“We must therefore simply assert that the Mother of God, as she was a virgin in conceiving Him and a virgin in giving Him birth, did she remain a virgin ever afterwards."

The blessed Mary mother of God, is a perpetual virgin to the glory of God!


Holy apostolic authority in the council of the church!

The official acts of the Fifth Ecumenical Council held at Constantinople in 553 refer to Mary as aeiparthenos (i.e. ever-virgin). For example, an anathema against the 'three chapters' condemns those who deny:
that nativity of these latter days when the Word of God came down from the heavens and was made flesh of holy and glorious Mary, mother of God and ever-virgin, and was born from her ...

The Lateran Council of 649 convened by Pope Martin I also issued an important statement affirming Mary's lifelong virginity:
If anyone does not, according to the Holy Fathers, confess truly and properly that holy Mary, ever virgin and immaculate, is Mother of God, since in this latter age she conceived in true reality without human seed from the Holy Spirit, God the Word Himself, who before the ages was born of God the Father, and gave birth to Him without corruption, her virginity remaining equally inviolate after the birth, let him be condemned.

 

[Free]

When Jesus was twelve they went up to Jerusalem, the holy family, Joseph, Mary, and Jesus. Where are the brothers and sisters?

Jesus on the cross gives His mother to John, why? Why not James or a brother? Perhaps the law of Moses requires a mother to be given to the next oldest son? Because he was an only Son!
Only begotten of the Father, only begotten of the Mother.

Only God can be born of a Virgin-mother!

First born does not imply a second born. An only child is still first born!

Martin Luther

It is an article of faith that Mary is Mother of the Lord and still a virgin. … Christ, we believe, came forth from a womb left perfectly intact. (Weimer’s The Works of Luther, English translation by Pelikan, Concordia, St. Louis, v. 11, pp. 319-320; v. 6. p. 510.)

John Calvin

(On the Heretic Helvidius) Helvidius displayed excessive ignorance in concluding that Mary must have had many sons, because Christ’s “brothers” are sometimes mentioned. (Harmony of Matthew, Mark and Luke, sec. 39 [Geneva, 1562], vol. 2 / From Calvin’s Commentaries, translated by William Pringle, Grand Rapids, Michigan: Eerdmans, 1949, p.215; on Matthew 13:55)

[On Matt 1:25:] The inference he [Helvidius] drew from it was, that Mary remained a virgin no longer than till her first birth, and that afterwards she had other children by her husband . . . No just and well-grounded inference can be drawn from these words . . . as to what took place after the birth of Christ. He is called “first-born”; but it is for the sole purpose of informing us that he was born of a virgin . . . What took place afterwards the historian does not inform us . . . No man will obstinately keep up the argument, except from an extreme fondness for disputation. (Pringle, ibid., vol. I, p. 107)

Under the word “brethren” the Hebrews include all cousins and other relations, whatever may be the degree of affinity. (Pringle, ibid., vol. I, p. 283 / Commentary on John, [7:3])

John Wesley

‘I believe that He [Jesus] was made man, joining the human nature with the divine in one person; being conceived by the singular operation of the Holy Ghost, and born of the blessed Virgin Mary, who, as well after as before she brought Him forth, continued a pure and unspotted virgin’ (‘Letter to a Roman Catholic’, The Works of Rev. John Wesley, vol 10, p. 81).


St Augustine, Sermons 186.1 (early 5th century):

“In being born of a Virgin who chose to remain a Virgin even before she knew who was to be born of her, Christ wanted to approve virginity rather than to impose it. And he wanted virginity to be of free choice even in that woman in whom he took upon himself the form of a slave” (Holy Virginity 4:4 [A.D. 401]).

“It was not the visible sun, but its invisible Creator who consecrated this day for us, when the Virgin Mother, fertile of womb and integral in her virginity, brought him forth, made visible for us, by whom, when he was invisible, she too was created. A Virgin conceiving, a Virgin bearing, a Virgin pregnant, a Virgin bringing forth, a Virgin perpetual. Why do you wonder at this, O man?” (Sermons 186:1 [A.D. 411]).

“Heretics called Antidicomarites are those who contradict the perpetual virginity of Mary and affirm that after Christ was born she was joined as one with her husband” (Heresies 56 [A.D. 428]).

St Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica, III.28.3 (13th century):

"Without any hesitation we must abhor the error of Helvidius, who dared to assert that Christ's Mother, after His Birth, was carnally known by Joseph, and bore other children.

For, in the first place, this is derogatory to Christ's perfection: for as He is in His Godhead the Only-Begotten of the Father, being thus His Son in every respect perfect, so it was becoming that He should be the Only-begotten son of His Mother, as being her perfect offspring.

“Secondly, this error is an insult to the Holy Ghost, whose "shrine" was the virginal womb, wherein He had formed the flesh of Christ: wherefore it was unbecoming that it should be desecrated by intercourse with man.

“Thirdly, this is derogatory to the dignity and holiness of God's Mother: for thus she would seem to be most ungrateful, were she not content with such a Son; and were she, of her own accord, by carnal intercourse to forfeit that virginity which had been miraculously preserved in her.

“Fourthly, it would be tantamount to an imputation of extreme presumption in Joseph, to assume that he attempted to violate her whom by the angel's revelation he knew to have conceived by the Holy Ghost.

“We must therefore simply assert that the Mother of God, as she was a virgin in conceiving Him and a virgin in giving Him birth, did she remain a virgin ever afterwards."

The blessed Mary mother of God, is a perpetual virgin to the glory of God!


Holy apostolic authority in the council of the church!

The official acts of the Fifth Ecumenical Council held at Constantinople in 553 refer to Mary as aeiparthenos (i.e. ever-virgin). For example, an anathema against the 'three chapters' condemns those who deny:
that nativity of these latter days when the Word of God came down from the heavens and was made flesh of holy and glorious Mary, mother of God and ever-virgin, and was born from her ...

The Lateran Council of 649 convened by Pope Martin I also issued an important statement affirming Mary's lifelong virginity:
If anyone does not, according to the Holy Fathers, confess truly and properly that holy Mary, ever virgin and immaculate, is Mother of God, since in this latter age she conceived in true reality without human seed from the Holy Spirit, God the Word Himself, who before the ages was born of God the Father, and gave birth to Him without corruption, her virginity remaining equally inviolate after the birth, let him be condemned.

There was only one son born of a virgin, Jesus. That is the whole point. There is absolutely no reason, biblical or otherwise, to believe that Mary and Joseph did not have children with both of their genetics involved through the normal course of husband and wife relations. None of the verses you provided even imply that Mary remained virgin; to suggest such is to make those verses say something they do not, which is a big no-no.

 

[donadams]

When your pope defrocked an the most pro life Catholic priest but ignores openly gay priests who teach the Bible is error then wonder .

By theirs fruits!
I’ve been associated with movement since the late 80’s

 

[donadams]

Sounds like the reformed eh?

No sounds like the modernist apostasy
Christ promised apply to his church not the vatican

 

[jasonc]

By theirs fruits!
I’ve been associated with movement since the late 80’s

Again if they have errors that means the church does.

Fruits,not theology.i know plenty of jws who don't curse,and are pretty free of sins as biblically defined .

 

[jasonc]

No sounds like the modernist apostasy
Christ promised apply to his church not the vatican

So I'm right all the reformed are heretics .

 

[donadams]

There was only one son born of a virgin, Jesus. That is the whole point. There is absolutely no reason, biblical or otherwise, to believe that Mary and Joseph did not have children with both of their genetics involved through the normal course of husband and wife relations. None of the verses you provided even imply that Mary remained virgin; to suggest such is to make those verses say something they do not, which is a big no-no.

Really? Lk 1:43

 

[donadams]

What about biblical principles?

Is 7:14 God provides a sign, a Virgin shall conceive and bear a son! (Singular, one son)

Ezekiel 44:2 “This gate shall remain shut; it shall not be opened, and no one shall enter by it; for the Lord, the God of Israel, has entered by it; therefore it shall remain shut.”

Song of Solomon 4:12 A garden inclosed is my sister, my spouse; a spring shut up, a fountain sealed.

(Mary had become the temple & dwelling place of the Almighty, like the Ark of the Covenant in the Old Testament. Mary was a vessel consecrated to God alone?)

Adam and Eve were married in the garden but did not have sex, marriage is made by consent not sex!

Gen 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.

Gen 4:1 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the Lord.

Eve was a virgin in the garden but never called a virgin cos she did not remain a perpetual virgin!

 

[donadams]

Again if they have errors that means the church does.

Fruits,not theology.i know plenty of jws who don't curse,and are pretty free of sins as biblically defined .

Heresy, apostasy, schism
Cut them off from the church
What hath light to do with darkness 2 cor 6:14-15

14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?

 

[donadams]

So I'm right all the reformed are heretics .

What do you mean by reformed?
According to scripture the only reformed is Christ reformed the new covenant!
Hebrews 9:10
Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

 

[jasonc]

What do you mean by reformed?
According to scripture the only reformed is Christ reformed the new covenant!
Hebrews 9:10
Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

The protestant reformation as led by Luther ,Calvin ,Knox,Arminius.
There is a subset of that usage that is more common called the Calvinist .

 

[Free]

Really? Lk 1:43

Luk 1:43 And why is this granted to me that the mother of my Lord should come to me? (ESV)

How would this verse show that Mary remained a virgin?

 

[jasonc]

Heresy, apostasy, schism
Cut them off from the church
What hath light to do with darkness 2 cor 6:14-15

14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?

As said protestants are heretics to you.

 

[donadams]

The protestant reformation as led by Luther ,Calvin ,Knox,Arminius.
There is a subset of that usage that is more common called the Calvinist .

Can truth be reformed?

 

[jasonc]

Can truth be reformed?

So your interpretation is infallible,that when you look at the reformed it's the cross they point to.

With the Catholics it's all about Mary .if I see a icon or shrine it's certainly a Catholic ,a cross I know it's likely not .

But I guess you can brag to Jesus all about how Good you were.

See my church has an an antiabortion ministry .the Catholics here only visit the actual clinic to stop it for forty days. Only two remain yearly . The 40 days of life is a good works ,ya earn that pentantance .while repentance may include righting that which is wrong that you did .it doesn't include that part of what Catholics do.

Locally I know the diosece history .I have researched it . No,not all Catholics are uniformed .

You sound like Vatican one ,only Catholics are saved.vatican two accepts the protestants,then you have the fact prior to 1854 the immucalation conception wasn't around and well now you HAVE to believe or you are a heretic .yet all those bishops and pipes,priests didn't believe that .

So I guess ask yourself it does change because your entire base is now heresy .

 

[donadams]

Luk 1:43 And why is this granted to me that the mother of my Lord should come to me? (ESV)

How would this verse show that Mary remained a virgin?

Sorry little confusion there
Lkn1:34

 

[Free]

Sorry little confusion there
Lkn1:34

Luk 1:34 And Mary said to the angel, “How will this be, since I am a virgin?”

This is speaking of her state prior to Jesus even being conceived in her womb. It is only about Jesus, that he would be conceived by the Holy Spirit, not a man. The idea of perpetual virginity isn't even implied.

 

[Aussie Mark]

First, the gospel is not about Jesus' entire family. It is about Jesus so it is not important to mention any reference to his brothers and sisters. For one, if there were any at that time, one can easily surmise that they were not missing. Only one was missing and that was Jesus.

Second. It's possible she didn't have any other children yet. My youngest sister is 14 years younger than I. Does that mean she is not my sister? My oldest daughter is 12 years younger than my son. Does that mean she isn't my daughter?

C'mon man. You're trying way to hard to make Scripture fit your doctrine.

I started to read this thread and by the time I got to the 2nd screen this was doing my head in.

I agree that the scriptures seem to be used & twisted just to prove some wird doctrinal hang-up.

All four gospels are not histories or biographies but each had a distinct immediate audience and each was setting out with slightly different aims. We must be very careful not to impose modern expectations on what are essentially anicent texts.

Jesus had an earthly family which did include brothers, this we do we know from the scriptures. Just because it isn't in the gospels, doesn't mean he didn't have sisters either. It also make no mention of how many siblings he did or didn't have. We just know that he had them and that one was James, became a leader in the early church and write what we now have as a book of the Bible.

Same with the wise the wise men, the bible doesnt give a number of magi, just a number of gifts. It is church tradition that ascribes each gift to just one magi giving us the number of three. There could have been four, with one feeling awkward about only handing over some gift vouchers for the local Babies R Us or maybe not even bringing a gift at all.

I hardly think it matters at all if Jesus had siblings and Mary was the mother. By assuming that she wasn't their biological mother, it takes us down the only other option that Mary & Jospeh divorced which goes against Joseph's dream where he was encouraged to marry her even though she was with child and also Jesus' latter teachings on divorce.

Mary's status as a Virgin is important because:

• It fulfills prophecy
• Points to God's soverign hand and control of all things
• Distinguishes Jesus' birth from all others as being conceived of the Holy Spirit.

Beyond that it shouldn't matter if Mary and Jospeh had sex as a married couple (something encoraged in a positive way in the Bible) for in them doing so they themselves were doing as commanded to "be fruitful and multiply".

I don't think being hung up on Mary's sex life and Jesus' earthly family really does anything to further the Gospel or expand the Kingdom. Let's just keep it simple, Jesus did.

To me we have two options: Virgin Divorcee or Fertile Mum, I know which one I choose.

 

[donadams]

So your interpretation is infallible,that when you look at the reformed it's the cross they point to.

With the Catholics it's all about Mary .if I see a icon or shrine it's certainly a Catholic ,a cross I know it's likely not .

But I guess you can brag to Jesus all about how Good you were.

See my church has an an antiabortion ministry .the Catholics here only visit the actual clinic to stop it for forty days. Only two remain yearly . The 40 days of life is a good works ,ya earn that pentantance .while repentance may include righting that which is wrong that you did .it doesn't include that part of what Catholics do.

Locally I know the diosece history .I have researched it . No,not all Catholics are uniformed .

You sound like Vatican one ,only Catholics are saved.vatican two accepts the protestants,then you have the fact prior to 1854 the immucalation conception wasn't around and well now you HAVE to believe or you are a heretic .yet all those bishops and pipes,priests didn't believe that .

So I guess ask yourself it does change because your entire base is now heresy .

There is no personal interpretation of scripture
2 Peter 1:20
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
The immaculate conception was defined in 1854 but always believed and taught by the church and dec. 8 has been celebrated as the immaculate conception annually back to apostolic times

The truths of God are divine, as truth and life are from God Jn 14:6
And immutable as is the church founded by God in christ

Truth must be revealed by God thru Christ to His church (the apostles Jude 1:3) then must be proposed by the church, (Matt 28:19 gal 3:23) without error by the Holy Spirit! (Jn 16:13)

Christ and His church are one! (Acts 9:4 eph 5:31 Jn 15:1-5)

The evidence of true faith is humble subjection and obedience to Christ & His holy church!

The rule of faith for Christians is Jesus Christ Jn 14:6 and His church! Matt 18:17 acts 2:42 1 Tim 3:15