Buying a Sword

[christian_soldier]

"What would Jesus have done?"

Told a good joke that would have stopped the dude in his tracks? :smt017

What say ye, aLoneVoice? I'd also appreciate an answer to: "Now, if you were to ask the two getting beat if God had intervened, what do you suppose their answer might be?" from one of my previous posts.

Javier! Well done, my brother! :smt023

 

[Guest]

"What would Jesus have done?"

Told a good joke that would have stopped the dude in his tracks? :smt017

What say ye, aLoneVoice? I'd also appreciate an answer to: "Now, if you were to ask the two getting beat if God had intervened, what do you suppose their answer might be?" from one of my previous posts.

Javier! Well done, my brother! :smt023

christian_soldier - I appreciate discussions and dialogue and even debates - however, I believe I have shown you respect when I disagree with you - I do not believe that I have mocked you or your position.

I am sorry that you misunderstood what I meant about using humor - it seemed obvisious to me that it was merely an example to illustrate a point that we need to use our imagiantion.

As I have said, I believe that we need to get involved. soldier, did you use physical violence? Would I have grapped a tire iron, maybe not - but I would have gotten involved.

The same with jg - I would have gotten involved, I just would not have 'cold-cocked' the guy. :D

How would Jesus have responded or done? Do we have a recorded event in Scripture that is similiari? I believe so - the women who was to be stoned by a violent crowd. How did Jesus respond?

Yes, I realize that it is not the exact same - but it is similiar.

Also, let me say that I my decision to be a CO and a pacifist is personal. It is a personal desicion that I made through the reading of Scripture and conviction by the Holy Spirit.

 

[christian_soldier]

christian_soldier - I appreciate discussions and dialogue and even debates - however, I believe I have shown you respect when I disagree with you - I do not believe that I have mocked you or your position.

I'm sorry if I offended you. No mocking intended, really. Had we been actually conversing, you would have been able to detect light-hearted nuances, not derision.

 

[Solo]

Those that know me, will tell you that I am a very passive man..

I say this because about three months ago I was at a 711 and as I was leaving I saw this young man about 25 or so (I am 42) robbing or trying to Rob this lady with her 2 children there..As they were fighting over her purse, I dropped my big gulp and pow...I smacked that dude with a left hook that I had no idea I had in me..The fool hit the ground and I called the police....I have never had a fight in my life....But the fact is that it felt Good to have helped that Lady...I would hope that if it were my wife getting robbed, someone would do the same for her.....What would Jesus have done?

Only one left hook and no kicking or biting or jabs or uppercut or ?

Boy was that guy lucky that you came across him and not some other person with more love for protecting the defenseless!!!! :-D

 

[jgredline]

Only one left hook and no kicking or biting or jabs or uppercut or ?

Boy was that guy lucky that you came across him and not some other person with more love for protecting the defenseless!!!! :-D

Well, there is a little more...Once the guy was on the ground that lady started to kick him...and I let her...Really, the guy was a punk and I am a big guy...
6.1 268lbs, he was about 5.7'' and maybe 200lbs dripping wet....''but in my defense'' He is much younger than I and my hand was done..It swelled up like a balloon for the better part of a week....What hurt the most is that I had a hard time typing : which I am sure made many here very happy.. :-D

 

[christian_soldier]

BTW - aLoneVoice:

Once again - I'd also appreciate an answer to: "Now, if you were to ask the two getting beat if God had intervened, what do you suppose their answer might be?" from one of my previous posts.

I persist because some of your comments put me in mind of the story of the drowning man...you know that one?

 

[Guest]

BTW - aLoneVoice:

Once again - I'd also appreciate an answer to: "Now, if you were to ask the two getting beat if God had intervened, what do you suppose their answer might be?" from one of my previous posts.

I persist because some of your comments put me in mind of the story of the drowning man...you know that one?

Sorry for not answering that question, I was not doing that on purpose. And thank you for the apology.

Yes - I am sure that they would say that "God intervened" - however, does that justify the action? Let's say that the story stated that they were machined down in gun fire - I suppose they would answer the same that "God intervened" - but that doesn't really justify the action now does it?

Does the ends justify the means?

I suppose that there are those that might say that actions of Hill (from another thread) shows that God intervened - but does that justify homocide?

 

[Lewis]

Those that know me, will tell you that I am a very passive man..

I say this because about three months ago I was at a 711 and as I was leaving I saw this young man about 25 or so (I am 42) robbing or trying to Rob this lady with her 2 children there..As they were fighting over her purse, I dropped my big gulp and pow...I smacked that dude with a left hook that I had no idea I had in me..The fool hit the ground and I called the police....I have never had a fight in my life....But the fact is that it felt Good to have helped that Lady...I would hope that if it were my wife getting robbed, someone would do the same for her.....What would Jesus have done?

You did the right thing' and I am proud of you. People think that Christians are a bunch of punks. You know I have been to jail a few times in my life' onetime for 17 months' but it was always county' not the big house. But anyway they treat and call christians in jail a bunch of passive punks and other names that I can't say here. And I have ran into people out here on the street who expects Christians to take a beat down. Ain't that something' they expect it. And for this very same reason' a lot of Christians have been hurt or died. And Alone' did you read the article ?

 

[Guest]

You did the right thing' and I am proud of you. People think that Christians are a bunch of punks. You know I have been to jail a few times in my life' onetime for 17 months' but it was always county' not the big house. But anyway they treat and call christians in jail a bunch of passive punks and other names that I can't say here. And I have ran into people out here on the street who expects Christians to take a beat down. Ain't that something' they expect it. And for this very same reason' a lot of Christians have been hurt or died. And Alone' did you read the article ?

Yes, I read the article. It should be clear from my posts and explainations in this thread that I would disagree with the article.

If you would like, I could work up a point by point rebuttal - yet I doubt that will convince you.

The misunderstanding with the pacifist view, is that as a pacifist I do not get involved, or as you said am "passive". That is NOT what a pacifist is.

 

[Veritas]

aloneVoice,

So what is your definition of being a pacifist?

I would think it is impossible to be purely pacifist...unless you were a rock or some other inanimate object.

See, I think there are many types of violence. Even a forceful voice could be defined as a type of violence. Do you agree?

Sometimes I think violence is good and appropriate. Especially when it is God's judgement. An obvious example would be the Flood or the conquest of Israel by Joshua....or Jesus when He comes back.

 

[jgredline]

aloneVoice,

So what is your definition of being a pacifist?

I would think it is impossible to be purely pacifist...unless you were a rock or some other inanimate object.

See, I think there are many types of violence. Even a forceful voice could be defined as a type of violence. Do you agree?

Sometimes I think violence is good and appropriate. Especially when it is God's judgement. An obvious example would be the Flood or the conquest of Israel by Joshua....or Jesus when He comes back.

How about when Jesus himself slaughtered 185000 folks.. :o
35 And it came to pass on a certain night that the angel of the Lord went out, and killed in the camp of the Assyrians one hundred and eighty-five thousand; and when people arose early in the morning, there were the corpsesâ€â€all dead. 36 So Sennacherib king of Assyria departed and went away, returned home, and remained at Nineveh. 37 Now it came to pass, as he was worshiping in the temple of Nisroch his god, that his sons Adrammelech and Sharezer struck him down with the sword; and they escaped into the land of Ararat. Then Esarhaddon his son reigned in his place.

The Angel of the Lord is none other than Jesus Christ....This is a theophany

 

[Veritas]

:o

Thank God we're saved!

 

[christian_soldier]

:o

Thank God we're saved!

Amen! :D

 

[Guest]

aloneVoice,

So what is your definition of being a pacifist?

I would think it is impossible to be purely pacifist...unless you were a rock or some other inanimate object.

See, I think there are many types of violence. Even a forceful voice could be defined as a type of violence. Do you agree?

Sometimes I think violence is good and appropriate. Especially when it is God's judgement. An obvious example would be the Flood or the conquest of Israel by Joshua....or Jesus when He comes back.

Veritas - you are equating pacifism with being passive. They are seperate ideas altogether.

For me, a pacifist is someone who works to bring about peace - the ministry of reconcilliation. It means being involved within struggle, it means getting in the way of two parties that are fighting each other to seek reconcillation and restoration. For me, a pacifist is someone who is willing to get in the way, risking violence upon himself so as not to impose violence upon someone else.

I believe a Quaker proverb expresses it well: "Let's us take the risks of peace upon ourselves, than impose the violence of war unto others".

I would agree that the only violence that is acceptable is that which is God's judgement. I believe the violence recorded in the Scriptures at the hand of God is a divine violence which is acceptable. This would be God ordained, God instructed, and God carrying out the violence.

When you look at the wars that Israel fought, it is clear that God is the one at work and not the strength of the Hebrew army. Take Gideon for example, or the Judges, or the Prophets.

However, it was also a time when humanity was under the Law - and not during a time of Grace. I believe that Jesus has provided for us an outline of how we are to live in the Sermon on the Mount, and that He provides for us a living example of the Sermon in his earthly life.

 

[Veritas]

When you look at the wars that Israel fought, it is clear that God is the one at work and not the strength of the Hebrew army. Take Gideon for example, or the Judges, or the Prophets.

I totally agree with you there.

For me, a pacifist is someone who works to bring about peace

Isn't this why soldiers are supposed to fight?

Or, for example, Javier hit that man to bring about peace, not to start a fight.

However, it was also a time when humanity was under the Law - and not during a time of Grace.

On a side note... I think I might make a thread about Grace in OT times. I think it was still there.

 

[Guest]

Veritas - when you quoted me about a pacifist is one who brings peace, you cut off the whole quote:

For me, a pacifist is someone who works to bring about peace - the ministry of reconcilliation.

There is more to peace than the absence of violence.

Look at a soda can - it looks like it is at peace, even if I shake it up - on the outside it looks like it is at peace. But once that seal is broken - there is an explosion.

What looked like was at peace, was merely under supression. The carbonated soda on the inside was aggitated, but contained - suppressed.

Wars are not fought to bring about peace (reconcillation), rather then bring about suppression and containment.

 

[Guest]

How about when Jesus himself slaughtered 185000 folks.. :o
35 And it came to pass on a certain night that the angel of the Lord went out, and killed in the camp of the Assyrians one hundred and eighty-five thousand; and when people arose early in the morning, there were the corpsesâ€â€all dead. 36 So Sennacherib king of Assyria departed and went away, returned home, and remained at Nineveh. 37 Now it came to pass, as he was worshiping in the temple of Nisroch his god, that his sons Adrammelech and Sharezer struck him down with the sword; and they escaped into the land of Ararat. Then Esarhaddon his son reigned in his place.

The Angel of the Lord is none other than Jesus Christ....This is a theophany

jg - not all 'angels of the Lord" are theophanies like the "Angel of the Lord".

 

[jgredline]

I agree, but when the definate article is used to define the noun, as in this verse then it is Jesus...When I was studying Hebrew, This was one passage we looked at....

Note: I don't know Hebrew...I did take a semester of it, but was way in over my head at the time...I came away with some understanding though...

 

[Veritas]

Veritas - when you quoted me about a pacifist is one who brings peace, you cut off the whole quote:

alonevoice wrote:
For me, a pacifist is someone who works to bring about peace - the ministry of reconcilliation.

Okay... so being a pacifist is definately a ministry (of reconcilliation) in your mind. Yeah. I don't think I'd call a soldier a minister...unless he was a chaplain. I could be wrong about that though. I think there are those who are called to be soldiers like the Roman centurion in Acts 10. I think a calling and a ministry are different...I have to think about that.

Wars are not fought to bring about peace (reconcillation), rather then bring about suppression and containment.

I have to disagree if you think that all wars are just about suppression and containment. I think that is a part of them, but there are those that are fought with the intent of bringing about a peace and/or reconcilliation.

How about this scenerio... I'll hit the threatening guy to suppress his immediate violence and sober him a bit, then you can talk to him in his somewhat sobered state to bring about the completion of reconciliation.

 

[christian_soldier]

Sounds like a plan

How about this scenerio... I'll hit the threatening guy to suppress his immediate violence and sober him a bit, then you can talk to him in his somewhat sobered state to bring about the completion of reconciliation.

:smt023