buying and selling

[Deborah13]

in exodus whom were the mixed multitudes that agreed with the torah? HMM? they weren't Hebrews, Joseph's sons were what? Egyptians? moses married a what? an ethopian. the midianites are ethopians and the kenites aren't exactly Hebrews at all.

What's HMM?
There were a lot of others weren't there.
Thanks Jason

 

[agua.]

I understand your doctrine fully, just well where will the church be ? in the rapture? where will the believing jews be in that? heaven? ok so if im in heaven until the end the 1000 years. where is isreal literaly. oh gone. it was destroyed with the earth. hmm that is my point.

There will be Jewish believers on Earth during the MR who survive the trib, according to Paul, and Israel ( the land ) will be the centre of Jesus rule during the MR. There will also be Jewish believers resurrected along with Gentile believers after the trib which combined represent the Church. I have no idea what you mean.

 

[agua.]

I don't think people like Ruth, Rehab, etc. would be considered wild branches, but maybe they would.
They were proselytes, faithful Jews by choice so I don't know. But certainly almost all would be natural, genetic Jews.

Anyone attached to the Jews,even the proseltyes, are considered natural branches.

It just dawned on me that maybe we have a different understanding of who the nation of Israel was before the cross. God called them out first and foremost to bring the light of the world, the Messiah.
Even before the cross I see a nation Israel that was and still is a natural "kinsmen in the flesh" people.
But I also see a spiritual group of people, the Remnant if you will. These were/are the chosen, peculiar people, the holy people of God. I see the 'Israel of God'

Sure but the remnant we are considering in Romans are faithful Israelite believers.The comparison the not bowing to baal shows this as per 1Kings 19:18.

Galatians 6:16 as the peculiar, holy people.

Gal 6:16 ESV And as for all who walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God.

Notice here Paul makes the distinction between "all who walk by this rule" ( these are all believers) " " and the Israel of God" ( these are Jewish believers ). Gentile believers are never called Israel why would they be ? It would be like calling you an Australian.

1 Peter 2:9, as having began with the old testament saints most of them Jewish and continuing on to the bringing in of the Gentiles and ending with many Jews coming in. Jesus said He had two flocks those two flocks will be one.
When the Gospel was take to the Gentiles it grew and grew, there were true revivals down through the yrs. That is what I think is going to happen with the Jews. I see the Messianic Movement growing even in Israel where so many are against them. The Orthodox Jews tell their people not to shop in their stores, etc. For the sake of the forefathers God said.

Yes but this has nothing to do with the content of our discussion esp. Romans 9-11. You're right that all believers are chosen; but we aren't all Jew. ( or Gentile ).

I'm sorry I keep misunderstanding you. Maybe you can see what I am saying this time, it is not Replacement Theology at all. In fact, some Messianic Jews believe almost exactly like I do.
I tried to figure out a way to look at things from the corp. view as you said. But I guess you will have to do that with someone that can get it. I tried going at it a couple different ways but it just got too complicated. :neutral
Blessings agua, thanks for the attempt.

Ok Deb I apologise for being a bit gruff but it is as clear as water to me and I am confused when people don't see it especially when Paul explains it well. I think people struggle with it because they instinctively think the different method Yahweh has used for the Jew and the Gentile somehow implies favouritism or superiority. I'm sure you understand that there was/is absolutely no benefit, in God's eye, in being an unfaithful Jew and that being a Jew doesn't guarantee salvation, and never did.

I would still like to see you address a couple of questions if you can but never mind if you'd rather not .

1. What do you suggest the blinding of the Jews means and why did Yahweh do this ?
2. What does "turning ungodliness from Jacob" mean to you ? ( as per Romans 11:26 )

 

[Deborah13]

@agua
Post #94, I said,
"So have they been accepted back yet as a nation? I don't know but I think they have. But not because of the State of Israel being created in 1948."
Post #97, you said,
"Israel's formation in 1948 isn't the time of Romans 11:26 I haven't suggested that. It could be the pre-emptive reforming before this time though imo."

So first I just want to say something about these two post.
I do not make statements that are suggestive of what I think someone else thinks.
If I think someone has a belief about something that I have perceived from their posts, I will ask if that is what they believe, straight out and straight forward rather than guessing or accusing.
So in the posts above when I said "I don't believe" that is what I specifically meant and in no way had anything to do with me thinking that that is what you believe. I mentioned that because it is what I used to believe as many evangelicals do.
I try very hard not to put words in peoples mouths, I will ask. If you catching me doing that please straighten me out. Misrepresenting another is just bad form.
I asked you if you thought my theology was Replacement theology because I perceived that this is what you believed, so I asked.

 

[Deborah13]

agua.

Post # 96 - I said,
"I don't understand when you say I'm taking those scriptures and changing them to mean the Church.
Do you think I believe Replacement Theology? I don't, not at all. I don't even know anyone who does.
Post # 97 - you said,
"We are discussing the methods Yahweh has used to bring the Jew and the Gentile to Him and you quote scriptures specifically about the Jew and apply them to non Jews from I can see. This is replacement theology."

From what I can find out online Replacement Theology says that,
The Church began sometime around Pentecost in Acts, when the Holy Spirit was given to all who would believe. That the Body of Christ began at this time. This is the very foundation of Replacement Theology.

There are many of my beliefs that would never fit in to even the very foundation of what that theology says, and the differences just keep growing.

I do not believe that the Church, the Body of Christ began in Acts or anywhere in the New Testament.
The Body of Christ exists in Him, He is eternal, the Alpha and the Omega.
People have become a part of that Body in different ways, at different times, and that will continue to be true.

jasonc said something that really resonated with me. In speaking of Torah being the Messiah. At the time I agreed and still do, but my vision of what that entailed was very narrow. I had my mind just on the law and every jot and tittle being Him. After sleeping on these thoughts I woke up this morning with what I perceive to be a boarder vision of what that means. Thank you Jason.

 

[Deborah13]

Anyone attached to the Jews,even the proseltyes, are considered natural branches.
Sure but the remnant we are considering in Romans are faithful Israelite believers.The comparison the not bowing to baal shows this as per 1Kings 19:18. What do you believe?

I believe this is a very small part of the remnant of Israel before the cross. This is just those that were alive during this specific time period, that Paul quotes from scripture. I believe Paul used that scripture to prove his point that not all Israel had forsaken the Lord and that they did not/will not all perish.
Next verse,
Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
I see this election of grace, not by works, clearly in, Isaac thy seed shall be called...visibly seen in Jacob, in that "the elder shall serve the younger", speaking of law/grace,faith. (this is speaking of Israel) I am not including Gentiles other than proselytes.

Gal 6:16 ESV And as for all who walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God.

Notice here Paul makes the distinction between "all who walk by this rule" ( these are all believers) " " and the Israel of God" ( these are Jewish believers ). Gentile believers are never called Israel why would they be ? It would be like calling you an Australian.

It seems I remember you saying that some say that Abraham would be considered an Israelite. Why wouldn't he be? It was to him the promise of a people was given, he is the original forefather and I don't have a problem with that thought.
By the same token why would adopted children have a different name from the adoptive father?
When we look at Jesus' genealogy in Matthew we can see that blood was not necessary. The adopted child even legally takes the same place in the family as the real blood son. I believe the same concept can be found in the OT but I will have to think about it and research the law. I believe I can find that in the inheritance rights. Maybe?
As far as name changing that is easy with God. Abram became Abraham, Sari, because Sarah.
God did this when they became His.
As a side note, the study of the 'h' or 'hey' is an interesting one, too.

Yes but this has nothing to do with the content of our discussion esp. Romans 9-11. You're right that all believers are chosen; but we aren't all Jew. ( or Gentile ).

So let's just stick to scripture by scripture and stick with that. But scripture is witnessed by other scripture. When you ask what or why I believe what I do I have to bring in the scripture that I see for that answer. Not just give what I believe but why I believe it.

I think people struggle with it because they instinctively think the different method Yahweh has used for the Jew and the Gentile somehow implies favoritism or superiority. I'm sure you understand that there was/is absolutely no benefit, in God's eye, in being an unfaithful Jew and that being a Jew doesn't guarantee salvation, and never did.

I don't see favoritism at all, not one bit. God uses groups of people and individuals for different purposes and sometimes for more than one purpose. We are used for what He best suits us for.

I would still like to see you address a couple of questions if you can but never mind if you'd rather not .

1. What do you suggest the blinding of the Jews means and why did Yahweh do this ?
2. What does "turning ungodliness from Jacob" mean to you ? ( as per Romans 11:26 )

This would be easier if we were in the same time zone. Long.....posts, and I have hogged the thread in one post after another !

 

[jasonc]

There will be Jewish believers on Earth during the MR who survive the trib, according to Paul, and Israel ( the land ) will be the centre of Jesus rule during the MR. There will also be Jewish believers resurrected along with Gentile believers after the trib which combined represent the Church. I have no idea what you mean.

there will be jewish believers. so the church cant be isreal? nope says the the futurist to me. the church isn't isreal. why? because the church is spiritual not physical but the nation of isreal is physical and not spiritual? no the nation of isreal is both. okay. if both the eras have a gentile -jew mix what is the difference?

HMM as in hmm. the Hebrew nation has always had some gentile in her.

 

[Randy]

The children as described in the book of Rev are those that obey Gods commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus. God made a new covenant.

Randy

 

[jasonc]

jasonc said something that really resonated with me. In speaking of Torah being the Messiah. At the time I agreed and still do, but my vision of what that entailed was very narrow. I had my mind just on the law and every jot and tittle being Him. After sleeping on these thoughts I woke up this morning with what I perceive to be a boarder vision of what that means. Thank you Jason.

you are welcome. the Lord used king david's accounts of mistakes and success to teach me much.

 

[agua.]

I've read everything you've written above Deb and I can see we aren't coming to any understanding of each others position and things are getting less clear so
I won't comment on the Romans 9-11 issue anymore.

agua.

I do not believe that the Church, the Body of Christ began in Acts or anywhere in the New Testament.
The Body of Christ exists in Him, He is eternal, the Alpha and the Omega.
People have become a part of that Body in different ways, at different times, and that will continue to be true.

This particular portion concerning the Body of Christ is interesting considering the bringing of Jew and Gentile together was one of the results of the Cross as per Ephesians 2 and it's another piece of the message Paul gives concerning Yahweh's methods. Maybe we should let it be for now.

 

[agua.]

there will be jewish believers. so the church cant be isreal? nope says the the futurist to me. the church isn't isreal. why? because the church is spiritual not physical but the nation of isreal is physical and not spiritual? no the nation of isreal is both. okay. if both the eras have a gentile -jew mix what is the difference?

HMM as in hmm. the Hebrew nation has always had some gentile in her.

The Church is both physical and spiritual and only spiritual Israel is part of the Church. ie. only the believing Jew is spiritual Israel.

Rom_2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

We're talking about salvation being offered corporately to the Gentiles not individual people who did believe. Paul was the Apostle to the Gentiles to give the message that salvation was corporately being offered to them after the Cross.

Act 28:25-28 KJV And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers, (26) Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive: (27) For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. (28) Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.

Again we see Paul's message of why.

 

[jasonc]

The Church is both physical and spiritual and only spiritual Israel is part of the Church. ie. only the believing Jew is spiritual Israel.

Rom_2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

We're talking about salvation being offered corporately to the Gentiles not individual people who did believe. Paul was the Apostle to the Gentiles to give the message that salvation was corporately being offered to them after the Cross.

Act 28:25-28 KJV And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers, (26) Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive: (27) For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. (28) Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.

Again we see Paul's message of why.

the first gentile to hear and believe is recorded where and there are two. its not in the book of acts, but in the synoptic gospels. the centurion and the syriophonecian woman. I could add one more. the samaratian since they aren't jews. related but half breed. they accept on the torah and none of the prophets. just because the gospel doesn't mention it. we can be assured that the goy listened to the man when he came to town.

so when a Hebrew is born again NOW is he removed from isreal? ye say no, so in the places of heaven in god's kingdom and also earth. we have isreal in two places?

 

[agua.]

the first gentile to hear and believe is recorded where and there are two. its not in the book of acts, but in the synoptic gospels. the centurion and the syriophonecian woman. I could add one more. the samaratian since they aren't jews. related but half breed. they accept on the torah and none of the prophets. just because the gospel doesn't mention it. we can be assured that the goy listened to the man when he came to town.

so when a Hebrew is born again NOW is he removed from isreal? ye say no, so in the places of heaven in god's kingdom and also earth. we have isreal in two places?

Paul still considered himself to be a Jew and he was born again.

Rom 11:1 KJV I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

I've heard you use the term Messianic Jew to describe a Born again Jew. You aren't one or the other but both.

Salvation went corporately to the Gentiles after the Cross as Paul said.

 

[jasonc]

Paul still considered himself to be a Jew and he was born again.

Rom 11:1 KJV I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

I've heard you use the term Messianic Jew to describe a Born again Jew. You aren't one or the other but both.

so the man that jesus said had the greatest faith in isreal wasn't saved? the centurion who said speak the word only? he wasn't a jew. but a gentile.

ok so that negates the point of yours. paul also mentions the isreal of god, in galatians as a reference to the church. so how can that be?

 

[agua.]

so the man that jesus said had the greatest faith in isreal wasn't saved? the centurion who said speak the word only? he wasn't a jew. but a gentile.

ok so that negates the point of yours. paul also mentions the isreal of god, in galatians as a reference to the church. so how can that be?

Again we're not talking about individual salvation but the different methods Yahweh has used to bring Jew and Gentile to Him. The Israel of God are the believing Jews and not the Church.

Gal 6:16 KJV And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

There are 2 groups here in "as many as walk according to this rule of faith and the Israel of God ( the true Jew ). Do you agree Paul was both a Jew and a Christian ?

 

[jasonc]

Again we're not talking about individual salvation but the different methods Yahweh has used to bring Jew and Gentile to Him. The Israel of God are the believing Jews and not the Church.

Gal 6:16 KJV And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

There are 2 groups here in "as many as walk according to this rule of faith and the Israel of God ( the true Jew ). Do you agree Paul was both a Jew and a Christian ?

only one. there is neither greek nor jew but righteousness and righteousness.

uhm a messianic jew can never be nor do the torah fully. that Is impossible. I cant atone via animal offerings.

reconcile this with your doctrine.

and I didn't say there were now jews in the church only that we that are are just as Christian(follower of Christ) as any gentile. you are making the difference. messianic judiams is a style of worship, not an all together different group. and so it will be in mr. that is my point. a church again!

For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

gal 6. paul I think would disagree with you.

 

[agua.]

Again we're not talking about individual salvation but the different methods Yahweh has used to bring Jew and Gentile to Him. The Israel of God are the believing Jews and not the Church.

Gal 6:16 KJV And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

There are 2 groups here in "as many as walk according to this rule of faith and the Israel of God ( the true Jew ). Do you agree Paul was both a Jew and a Christian ?

only one. there is neither greek nor jew but righteousness and righteousness.

uhm a messianic jew can never be nor do the torah fully. that Is impossible. I cant atone via animal offerings.

reconcile this with your doctrine.

and I didn't say there were now jews in the church only that we that are are just as Christian(follower of Christ) as any gentile. you are making the difference. messianic judiams is a style of worship, not an all together different group. and so it will be in mr. that is my point. a church again!



gal 6. paul I think would disagree with you.

Ok Jason God bless.

 

[jasonc]

there is a reason(s) I cant become a messianic jew
1) god called me away from that
2) my family would assume that I am one of them and be insulted. I don't hide what I am from them.
3) to speak to any jew raised in the temple is a major source of temptation as I can learn from my heritage. yet be drawn from Christ to them.

on fb we have a closed paged called cranman and we discuss our history. I am of Ukrainian descent and its possible last name is a code for crimea. we were near that area when we left in the late 19th century. that said. sometime others will post things about the feasts. I know my cousin did last year with channukah and I had got caught into talking about doing it in my home which I do. do you see the problem? they must know that im not one of them but a believer. can I do it? sure. but I must also not tempt others to think im one of them and be as such. I could use that to reach them but often with some messianics it becomes a source of discussing torah and not jesus. im not saying it cant be done. after all paul did it. but I rather not be so sneaky. I would rather tell them im a Christian. then say im a jew then tell them about jesus and where he is in the torah. that to me closes doors. my dad said to me a few years ago. son either be a jew or a Christian not both.

 

[Deborah13]

I've read everything you've written above Deb and I can see we aren't coming to any understanding of each others position and things are getting less clear so
I won't comment on the Romans 9-11 issue anymore.



This particular portion concerning the Body of Christ is interesting considering the bringing of Jew and Gentile together was one of the results of the Cross as per Ephesians 2 and it's another piece of the message Paul gives concerning Yahweh's methods. Maybe we should let it be for now.

Yes, it was one of the results of the cross.
The OT saints looked forward to see their salvation in Christ's sacrifice.
We look backward and see our salvation in Christ's sacrifice.

If they are not in Christ, what are they?

I've thought on what I think you are trying to say or lead me to understand about the corp.
invitation. But I don't believe in the rapture, so there isn't any taking away of the Gentile Church as some call it and then God focusing again on Israel. When God focus' on Israel I believe the Church will be a part of that. What does Paul say,
Rom 11:12 and if the fall of them is the riches of a world, and the diminution of them the riches of nations, how much more the fulness of them?
I'd love to be around to see it!

 

[agua.]

I think you like Matt Henry's commentary maybe take a look at his explanation.

http://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/matthew-henry-complete/romans/11.html