By Nature Children of Wrath as others !

[Fastfredy0]

Don't we "have to" believe in Him?
Don't we "have to " repent of sin?
Don't we "have to" get baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins?
Don't we "have to " be reborn?
Don't we "have to" receive the gift of the Holy Ghost?
Don't we "have to" endure till the end?
I can hardly call that controlling God.

You are missing the point. I say God caused you to believe, repent, etc. You say some other (yet to be defined by you) caused you to believe, repent, etc. The debate is WHAT IS THE CAUSE. We are agreed upon the effects (believe, repent, etc.) of the cause. You don't acknowledge the possibility that God controls you. Perhaps you thing the Indwelling Spirit in you is dormant too? What do the Spirit do? To the degree you think the Spirit is not dormant in you, you are seeing the 'light' of my argument.

If He is doing all the choosing, why do we "have to" comply with or obey anything?

He is All Powerful, you are not... thus you will comply with His decrees.
What seems the wiser course .... that everything goes the way God wishes or some other power that you have yet to define determines compliance.

Have a good day.

 

[Walpole]

I was gone for a while but I see I haven't missed much. The Calvinists are still trying to sell others on their megalomaniac God who has to manipulate mindless puppets and robots in order to get them to believe in him.

 

[Hopeful]

You are missing the point. I say God caused you to believe, repent, etc. You say some other (yet to be defined by you) caused you to believe, repent, etc. The debate is WHAT IS THE CAUSE. We are agreed upon the effects (believe, repent, etc.) of the cause. You don't acknowledge the possibility that God controls you. Perhaps you thing the Indwelling Spirit in you is dormant too? What do the Spirit do? To the degree you think the Spirit is not dormant in you, you are seeing the 'light' of my argument.


He is All Powerful, you are not... thus you will comply with His decrees.
What seems the wiser course .... that everything goes the way God wishes or some other power that you have yet to define determines compliance.

Have a good day.

I don't believe, as you do, that the damned will suffer eternally because God didn't force them to believe.

 

[Fastfredy0]

I don't believe, as you do, that the damned will suffer eternally because God didn't force them to believe.

I hope you're right. Is your belief based on scripture or your contention that God is not cruel or something else?
Matt. 25:41; Mark 9:44-49; Revelation 14:10-11

 

[Hopeful]

I hope you're right. Is your belief based on scripture or your contention that God is not cruel or something else?
Matt. 25:41; Mark 9:44-49; Revelation 14:10-11

It is that I don't believe God forces some to believe and others not to believe.
He is just.

 

[Fastfredy0]

It is that I don't believe God forces some to believe and others not to believe.
He is just.

And why is God not just to send non-believers to hell. They get what they deserve. Remember, I have shown that the 1282 N.A. Indian goes to hell since there is only one gospel by which men are saved (Gal.1:8) and the 1282 Indian does not have access to that gospel.
Premise 1: You have a chance to go to heaven if you believe Paul's gospel
Premise 2: There is no other gospel than that of Paul (Gal.1:8)
Premise 3: God has not given the salvific gospel to the 1282 N.A. Indian
YOUR CONCLUSION assuming premise 1,2 and 3 are true: GOD IS NOT JUST BECAUSE HE DOESN'T PROVIDE A WAY THAT ALL MAY BE SAVED. Again, deal with the syllogism. Show what is wrong with ANY PREMISE. Otherwise, by your own words GOD IS NOT JUST ... or you have a contradiction you have to solve.
Possible answers:
God is not just
God lied
Scripture is not reliable
No one seeks God unless He intervenes
God instituted a new dispensation since Paul's writings with a new gospel whereby we may be saved.
The immaculate conception of the 1282 N.A. Indian

1 Corinthians 2:4 And my language and my message were not set forth in persuasive (enticing and plausible) words of wisdom, but they were in demonstration of the [Holy] Spirit and power [a proof by the Spirit and power of God, operating on me and stirring in the minds of my hearers the most holy emotions and thus persuading them - God is the cause], 5 So that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men (human philosophy), but in the power of God. AMP
The power of God is the means by which faith has been generated.
Verse 4 being repeated in 1 Thessalonians 1:5 for our good news [regarding salvation] came to you not only in word, but also in [its inherent] power and in the Holy Spirit and with great conviction [on our part]. AMP

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes ... what other power exists other than Gods? Tell of this other power .. who, what is it. Is it eternal or did someone/something create this power and if so who created this power that controls us if it was not God?
Heb. 1:3; John 1:3; Col. 1:17; Acts 17:28

God has everything under control...
Luke 12:22.....

But God does not control everything....
1 Corinthians 6:12

BTW,,,
Your posts...Hebrews 1:3, John 1:3, Col 1:17, Acts 17:28
do not support your position and have nothing to do with God controlling us.

There is no light (salvation) for the 1282 N.A. Indian. Show me in scripture how this Indian (just 1 example among billions who have never heard of Christ) is saved. You claim everyone without exception can be saved ... tell me how without preaching another gospel Gal. 1:8 , John 14:6

Interesting discussion. Thinks for expressing you ideas clearly ... well the moth and flame wasn't the clearest... *giggle*

Do you respect William Lane Craig?
He also agrees with the bible....
It seems that you do not.

 

[for_his_glory]

...and I was hoping you would exegete my verses as I did you yours ... and it was only a 10-20% of my list of verses and these only dealt with God choosing. I have plenty more verses in categories of "God Will", "Faith caused by God", "Repentance caused by God", "the attributes of God affirming God's choosing us and not us choosing Him", "examples of conversions", "analogies", "the depravity of man", "God hardening/blinding men from salvation", "God's sovereignty", "works deny the possibility of synergistic salvation", simple logic, "empirical evidence" and more.
God does not contradict Himself; scripture must harmonize with scripture.

It is God who sovereignly chooses the elect, so that Paul says, "He has chosen you," and not "He has approved of your choice." If God does little more than accept our choice, then he does not choose us in any real sense of the term. But Jesus says, "You did not choose me, but I chose you" (John 15:16). Therefore, Arminianism is false. Vincent Cheung

God has blessed you:
1) "Because He died for you" and "What you did (believed in Him)". Thus, you control God and caused Him to adopt you because of what you have done. God shares the glory of your salvation with you (oh praise "free will" / dualism) or
2) Because God chose you and caused you to believe in Him. God will crown His own works and shares His glory with no one. (John 1:12-13, Phil. 1:29, Mat. 11:27, John 3:27, John 6:29, John 6:63; Romans 9:16; Phil 2:13; James 1:18; 1 John 4:19 (I don't think I used any implicit ALL or WORLD verses and only supply a partial list)

The main reason I am leaving this conversation is because you are putting words in my mouth that I have not spoken making it look like I am teaching another gospel. You go right ahead and believe what Calvinism teaches within their views and opinions and I will continue to believe what Christ has already taught. You are my brother in the Lord, but we will never see eye to eye on everything. I really do appreciate the time you spent giving all those scriptures you have given, but I can not agree with how you interpret most of them, so it's just better that I walk away as I have nothing more to give.

 

[Hopeful]

And why is God not just to send non-believers to hell.

Because they were not given a "chosen" designation...in your POV.

They get what they deserve. Remember, I have shown that the 1282 N.A. Indian goes to hell since there is only one gospel by which men are saved (Gal.1:8) and the 1282 Indian does not have access to that gospel.
Premise 1: You have a chance to go to heaven if you believe Paul's gospel
Premise 2: There is no other gospel than that of Paul (Gal.1:8)
Premise 3: God has not given the salvific gospel to the 1282 N.A. Indian

Isn't that the same Paul who wrote..."For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)" (Rom 2:14-15)
Don't you think anyone from the pre-gospel times will be judged as righteous on the last day?
Enoch, Samuel, Elijah, and others?
They never heard any gospel, but to deny them heaven and eternal life for that reason sounds devilish.

 

[Hopeful]

And why is God not just to send non-believers to hell. They get what they deserve. Remember, I have shown that the 1282 N.A. Indian goes to hell since there is only one gospel by which men are saved (Gal.1:8) and the 1282 Indian does not have access to that gospel.
Premise 1: You have a chance to go to heaven if you believe Paul's gospel
Premise 2: There is no other gospel than that of Paul (Gal.1:8)
Premise 3: God has not given the salvific gospel to the 1282 N.A. Indian
YOUR CONCLUSION assuming premise 1,2 and 3 are true: GOD IS NOT JUST BECAUSE HE DOESN'T PROVIDE A WAY THAT ALL MAY BE SAVED. Again, deal with the syllogism. Show what is wrong with ANY PREMISE. Otherwise, by your own words GOD IS NOT JUST ... or you have a contradiction you have to solve.
Possible answers:
God is not just
God lied
Scripture is not reliable
No one seeks God unless He intervenes
God instituted a new dispensation since Paul's writings with a new gospel whereby we may be saved.
The immaculate conception of the 1282 N.A. Indian

1 Corinthians 2:4 And my language and my message were not set forth in persuasive (enticing and plausible) words of wisdom, but they were in demonstration of the [Holy] Spirit and power [a proof by the Spirit and power of God, operating on me and stirring in the minds of my hearers the most holy emotions and thus persuading them - God is the cause], 5 So that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men (human philosophy), but in the power of God. AMP
The power of God is the means by which faith has been generated.
Verse 4 being repeated in 1 Thessalonians 1:5 for our good news [regarding salvation] came to you not only in word, but also in [its inherent] power and in the Holy Spirit and with great conviction [on our part]. AMP

They only "deserve it" if they heard it and rejected it

 

[tdidymas]

Because they were not given a "chosen" designation...in your POV.

Isn't that the same Paul who wrote..."For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)" (Rom 2:14-15)
Don't you think anyone from the pre-gospel times will be judged as righteous on the last day?
Enoch, Samuel, Elijah, and others?
They never heard any gospel, but to deny them heaven and eternal life for that reason sounds devilish.

What do you do with Gen. 3:15? It is the "proto-gospel" such that they did believe in the future Messiah, as did Abel (per Hebrews 11), Abraham (per Gal. 3), Moses (per Deu. 18), and all NT believers before Christ was revealed (per John 1:41 & 4:25). Before Christ, all believers in the future Messiah went to paradise, also called "the bosom of Abraham." It was not because of their miniscule righteousness (as compared to other people), but because they believed the Messiah would save them. They did indeed hear the gospel per Heb 4:2 "For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them..." ("them" being those who fell in the wilderness in the days of Moses).

It seems to me that you think a self-righteous person will make it to heaven because "he's done his best," even though Paul wrote "by the works of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight." Paul is expressing a general rule which applies to all people, OT saints included. But all human-produced righteousness is tainted with sin in all its glory, yet you seem to think that God accepts it as a justification for salvation. Is this what you think?

 

[Fastfredy0]

The main reason I am leaving this conversation is because you are putting words in my mouth that I have not spoken making it look like I am teaching another gospel.

I am drawing logical conclusions from your statements. You can correct me when I am wrong. I think you are withdrawing because you don't have a response and you are too honest to make one up.

Postulate: Teaching that someone can be saved (1282 N.A. Indian) who has not heard of Christ is teaching another gospel. Galatians 1:8

Premise 1: You believe a 1282 N.A. Indian who never heard of Christ can be saved since you stated everyone without exception has the opportunity to be saved.
Premise 2: Not everyone has heard of Christ. (Empirical evidence is overwhelming)
Conclusion 3: You preach another gospel. (Granted, unintentionally)

Galatians 1:8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we [originally] preached to you, let him be condemned to destruction!

Which Premise is incorrect and why?????

I really do appreciate the time you spent giving all those scriptures you have given

Thank you .... those were a small (15%) sampling. I respect the bountiful amount of knowledge you share with others. You are well versed.

John 3:27 John replied, “A man can receive nothing [he can claim nothing at all] unless it has been granted to him from heaven [for there is no other source than the sovereign will of God]. AMP

When we get to heaven the Father will settle this dispute (Probably say we both got it wrong )

 

[Fastfredy0]

Isn't that the same Paul who wrote..."For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)" (Rom 2:14-15)

I keep asking you questions about salvation and you respond with verses that people are aware of the law even if they have not heard it. This is irrelevant unless you are claiming salvation by obeying the law. (Romans 3:20)

Don't you think anyone from the pre-gospel times will be judged as righteous on the last day?
Enoch, Samuel, Elijah, and others?

Why do I keep answering your questions when you won't answer mine?
I prefer not to get into pre-Christ salvation as that complicates things but ...
Pre-Christ people will be judged righteous not because they are righteous, but because of faith. The contents of that faith be debatable. It seems that in Israel's time only only some of the Jews will be saved per Eph. 2:12. To keep things simpler I use the example of the 1282 N.A. Indian.

For the 4th? time answer my question given:
Premise 1: You have a chance to go to heaven if you believe Paul's gospel
Premise 2: There is no other gospel than that of Paul (Gal.1:8)
Premise 3: God has not presented the salvific gospel to the 1282 N.A. Indian and many others
Conclusion: Some people given NO OPPORTUNITY to be saved
Conclusion2: If Christ died for everyone with the idea that they might be saved, He died in vain.
QUESTION: Which premise is wrong and why (thus putting the conclusions in jeopardy)

Answer the question ... please, please, please (LOL)

 

[Consecrated Life]

there is no one reading this forum who was not at one time an unbeliever.
this is the basis upon which Paul made his statement.

 

[Hopeful]

What do you do with Gen. 3:15? It is the "proto-gospel" such that they did believe in the future Messiah, as did Abel (per Hebrews 11), Abraham (per Gal. 3), Moses (per Deu. 18), and all NT believers before Christ was revealed (per John 1:41 & 4:25). Before Christ, all believers in the future Messiah went to paradise, also called "the bosom of Abraham." It was not because of their miniscule righteousness (as compared to other people), but because they believed the Messiah would save them. They did indeed hear the gospel per Heb 4:2 "For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them..." ("them" being those who fell in the wilderness in the days of Moses).

It seems to me that you think a self-righteous person will make it to heaven because "he's done his best," even though Paul wrote "by the works of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight." Paul is expressing a general rule which applies to all people, OT saints included. But all human-produced righteousness is tainted with sin in all its glory, yet you seem to think that God accepts it as a justification for salvation. Is this what you think?

The non-Jews, or anybody before Moses, had no Law.
They could not be judged guilty of breaking non-existent Laws.

 

[Hopeful]

I keep asking you questions about salvation and you respond with verses that people are aware of the law even if they have not heard it. This is irrelevant unless you are claiming salvation by obeying the law. (Romans 3:20)



Why do I keep answering your questions when you won't answer mine?
I prefer not to get into pre-Christ salvation as that complicates things but ...
Pre-Christ people will be judged righteous not because they are righteous, but because of faith. The contents of that faith be debatable. It seems that in Israel's time only only some of the Jews will be saved per Eph. 2:12. To keep things simpler I use the example of the 1282 N.A. Indian.

For the 4th? time answer my question given:
Premise 1: You have a chance to go to heaven if you believe Paul's gospel

Yes

Premise 2: There is no other gospel than that of Paul (Gal.1:8)

No other gospel exists.

Premise 3: God has not presented the salvific gospel to the 1282 N.A. Indian and many others

True.

Conclusion: Some people given NO OPPORTUNITY to be saved

Wrong conclusion.
Moses, Abraham, and Jacob never heard off Paul's gospel.

Conclusion2: If Christ died for everyone with the idea that they might be saved, He died in vain.

He did not die in vain.
But OT folks had a Law to live by that included remediation of sins...without hearing of Christ Jesus.
And as all men will be judged by their consciences, whether they hear of Christ or not, it is not my place to judge them here enmasse.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Wrong conclusion.
Moses, Abraham, and Jacob never heard off Paul's gospel.

Well, thank you for finally addressing my question partially. I agree that before Christ faith consisted of a different knowledge than today. What the content of faith was is more difficult to ascertain and therefore I did not use pre-Christ examples. You are avoiding the crux of the question.

You said EVERYONE WITHOUT EXCEPTION has an opportunity to be saved.
My example was an 1282 N.A. Indian. Aside: There are millions (billions?) of examples like all of China and South America in 50 A.D.
Again, by what gospel is the 1282 N.A. Indian saved or is there not chance for his salvation.
You said that there is no other gospel than Paul's gospel. We both know the Indian and millions of others have not heard Paul's gospel. Therefore, your contention that EVERYONE WITHOUT EXCEPTION has an opportunity to be saved is false. You seems to be an intelligent man ... I think you are just being disingenuous.

 

[JLB]

Well, thank you for finally addressing my question partially. I agree that before Christ faith consisted of a different knowledge than today. What the content of faith was is more difficult to ascertain and therefore I did not use pre-Christ examples. You are avoiding the crux of the question.

You said EVERYONE WITHOUT EXCEPTION has an opportunity to be saved.
My example was an 1282 N.A. Indian. Aside: There are millions (billions?) of examples like all of China and South America in 50 A.D.
Again, by what gospel is the 1282 N.A. Indian saved or is there not chance for his salvation.
You said that there is no other gospel than Paul's gospel. We both know the Indian and millions of others have not heard Paul's gospel. Therefore, your contention that EVERYONE WITHOUT EXCEPTION has an opportunity to be saved is false. You seems to be an intelligent man ... I think you are just being disingenuous.

Do you believe that living a life of obedience to our Lord is considered
”works salvation”?


And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, Hebrews 5:9




JLB

 

[JLB]

We both know the Indian and millions of others have not heard Paul's gospel.

How do you “know” this?

I think you mean you “assume” this.


How was Abraham saved?





JLB

 

[for_his_glory]

The non-Jews, or anybody before Moses, had no Law.
They could not be judged guilty of breaking non-existent Laws.

Actually there were laws given to Noah after the flood. They are called the Noahic laws.

www.jewfaq.org

Noahic (Noah) Commandments are seven commandments first given to Adam by God before the flood and brought to remembrance by God to Noah after the flood, which are binding on both Jew and Gentile as there were no Jew or Gentile in the days of Noah. Abraham was the first one to be called a Hebrew, Genesis 14:13. The seven make up the first parts of the ten that God gave to Moses on Mt Sinai in Exodus 20. Below is a comparison list of the seven and the full ten which are all a part of the 613 laws given to Moses as some were for the Hebrews pertaining to the rituals of the Temple, sacrifices, festivals, Torah, Kohanim and Levites, the King and the Nazarite and then there are the existing moral laws (commandments) for all, Jew and Gentile to follow. Christ did not come to destroy all the laws, but to fulfill the parts of the Temple and sacrifices, Matthew 5:17-22.

Noahic Laws:
Not to worship idols.
Not to curse God.
To establish courts of justice.
Not to commit murder.
Not to commit adultery or sexual immorality.
Not to steal.
Not to eat flesh torn from a living animal.

Mt. Sinai Laws:
You shall have no other gods before Me.
You shall not make idols.
You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.
Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Honor your father and your mother.
You shall not murder.
You shall not commit adultery.
You shall not steal.
You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
You shall not covet.


Part of the ten laws broken down to various commands within one law:
Other gods and idols are as one not to worship, but broke down into two commands
Remember the Sabbath was added to the ten commandments by God as a remembrance of all God did in six days (Gods timing) and rested on the seventh, Genesis 2:1-3; Matthew 12:1-13
To establish courts of justice was only given to Noah for the new generations to come after the flood
Honor your father and mother was not given to Noah, but was added to the ten commandments by God as the generations grew.
Not to covet was added to the ten commandments by God, but broke down into seven commands as your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor's.