Call No Man Father

[Rodger]

Why does Jesus demand that the successors of Moses be obeyed? Matt 23

Matthew 23 does not say that my friend.

If you were referring to verse #3............
"All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not." then the answer is NO. That is not waht Jesus said.

Jesus was the enemy and He opposed the scribes and Pharisees, and warned His disciples and the crowds to not do according to their deeds (v 3). Do not be like them. Do not practice Bad Religion.

The phrase the chair of Moses was a symbolic allusion to having moral or prophetic authority over God’s people.

Bottom line is that We are never to follow leaders who live an ungodly lifestyle. We are to examine their works and see how their deeds align with God’s word.

 

[Hopeful 2]

What about the sins we commit after that?

More sins would be the proof of a prior false repentance from sin.
Nobody can forge a relationship with God that is based on a lie.

 

[Rodger]

More sins would be the proof of a prior false repentance from sin.
Nobody can forge a relationship with God that is based on a lie.

Do you realize what you are saying????

I hope that you do because I have no earthly idea!!!

Every single person who is born again was a sinner my friend. They in fact still are.
They are forgiven but they/we/you still sin.

I do not know how else to say that to you. The fact that you believe that you do not sin says to me that you are living in denial.

Friend, we are we are simultaneously sinners and saints. As saints, we’ve experienced the power of new birth (2 Corinthians 5:17) and tasted “the firstfruits of the Spirit” (Romans 8:23). Yet despite these miraculous realities, we keep on sinning, to our great dismay and shame. And if we think we don’t sin, John tells us we’re deceiving ourselves (1 John 1:8). As much as we wish it were not so, saints still sin.

Scripture gives no promise of sinlessness in this life; indeed, it says the opposite (1 John 1:8). We’re never promised total victory over sin.

 

[GodsGrace]

How about just ask ONE question a post??????

You asked me......
"Am I a priest"

YES!

NO Rodger....
not that kind of priest.

Cute though!

 

[GodsGrace]

BOTH.

The virus is spreading.

Did you READ that I said in the green that i said....."IMHO though,".
IMHO means my personal thought!
Then in the blue I said.........
"However, we do not always need to be asking God for forgiveness. When we place our faith in Jesus Christ for salvation, all of our sins are forgiven. That includes past, present, and future, big or small. Believers do not have to keep asking for forgiveness or repenting in order to have their sins forgiven. "
I am perplexed at how that is confusing. I stated what the Bible teaches us ....however TO ME, IN MY LIFE I have found that I feel better when I talk to God and confess my know sin.

You said......
"And, let's not forget: Yes, God DOES expect us to keep His Word and the Ten Commandments".

That is the 2nd time you have said that. Would you please post where I said that we did not have to try and keep the commandments if God and the # of that post?

This is a problem we Protestants have....
THE TRUTH cannot be IMHO.
Your opinion does not matter when it comes to absolute truths involving God.

Do we need to ask forgiveness for our sins or not?

I'm not going back to look for where you posted what...
No time.

But if I'm replying to it it means that I get THE IMPRESSION that you're denying that GOOD WORKS/DEEDS are NECESSARY to be saved.

So I guess, then, that you agree with my statement here?

So since JESUS Himself said that good deeds/works are necessary for salvation,
then I guess that you DO AGREE?

Which, would be nice that ALL PROTESTANTS could at least agree on the fact that
GOD DEMANDS OBEDIENCE.

(I think I posted sufficient verses).

 

[GodsGrace]

Your responces are becoming rather personal and confrontational to me. Is that what you intended them to be?

Example:
You're moving on to the saints because you can't defend your position on what YOU posted regarding the CCC?

I was trying to be nice and respectful and not get involved in confrontational theology...HOWEVER it seems to me that you are inviting just that.

Example.
By your own words you are saying that NO ONE has the ability to offer challenges to any religion that does not accept and follow the Word of God.

Do You know that you personally have just denied exactly what the Bible telles us to do.

Matthew 7:15: ......
“Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves.” And the word beware means all of us should be alert, but especially shepherds, to identify not just false teaching, but false teachers, whose ways are subtle. They’re clothing themselves with lamb’s wool while they’re wolves.

You then said.........
"How about posting some verses that state :

WE ARE NOT TO BE BAPTIZED
WE ARE NOT TO DO GOOD WORKS"

I HAVE DONE THAT ABOUT A DOZEN TIMES NOW! How many more do you require????

Not with me Rodger.
Maybe you were posting to someone else.
Unfortunately these threads are like this.

Personal....
Yes, it might have been taken as personal.
I'm saying that you are not an expert in Catholic Doctrine.
Can I not say that?
It's personal?

You make a statement about Catholic Doctrine...
I show you that it's incorrect with verses and additional CCC paragraphs.

YOU do not agree with the CC that baptism is required for salvation.
This means you don't believe we must be baptized to be saved.
WHERE in the NT does it state that baptism is not necessary?
Jesus, and others, state that it IS necessary....

You say that in Catholicism the doctrine is that good works/deeds save us.
And indeed they do and I've posted MANY verses that state this.
Including the words of JESUS.

Now,,,where in the NT does it state that we are NOT to do good works?

Ephesians 2:8 the go to verse for being saved by faith states that we are saved for good works.

8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

Verse 8 We are saved by faith...NOT BY WORKS....as I've stated many times, even the CC teaches this.

Verse 10 We are created in Christ Jesus for GOOD WORKS....exactly what the CC teaches and what most Protestant theologians teach.

Faith without works is dead.
Works without faith are dead.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Do you realize what you are saying????

Yes, I do.

I hope that you do because I have no earthly idea!!!

It sure got you excited, for something about which you have no earthly idea.

Every single person who is born again was a sinner my friend. They in fact still are.

That is debatable.
Enoch and Elijah come to mind...John the baptist too.

They are forgiven but they/we/you still sin.

They 'will be forgiven' IF they repent of sin and are baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins...and are reborn of God's seed...and endure faithfully until the end.

I do not know how else to say that to you. The fact that you believe that you do not sin says to me that you are living in denial.

Either that, or, I have been reborn of incorruptible seed after having destroyed the first edition of me.

Friend, we are we are simultaneously sinners and saints.

No, we are one or the other.

As saints, we’ve experienced the power of new birth (2 Corinthians 5:17) and tasted “the firstfruits of the Spirit” (Romans 8:23).

Agreed, both of which can prevent further disobedience to the One who saves us.

Yet despite these miraculous realities, we keep on sinning, to our great dismay and shame. And if we think we don’t sin, John tells us we’re deceiving ourselves (1 John 1:8). As much as we wish it were not so, saints still sin.

Those who continue to sin, under the name of Christ, are blaspheming the name of the Son of God.

Scripture gives no promise of sinlessness in this life; indeed, it says the opposite (1 John 1:8). We’re never promised total victory over sin.

Why do you ignore the verse before it ?
" But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin."
Quit walking in darkness, (sin), and start walking in the light, (God) !

Do you know God ?
It is written..."And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked." (1 John 2:3-6)

 

[donadams]

Because they were the governing authorities. Jesus Himself stated He was NOT leading a rebellion but exceptions were made as the Apostles were commanded not to speak anymore about Jesus and they chose to obey God.

Then we must obey the apostles vis the have the same kingdom authority

Matt 21:43 taken from them

Given to Peter and the apostles Matt 16:18-19 & 18:18 lk 22:29

 

[donadams]

Matthew 23 does not say that my friend.

If you were referring to verse #3............
"All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not." then the answer is NO. That is not waht Jesus said.

Jesus was the enemy and He opposed the scribes and Pharisees, and warned His disciples and the crowds to not do according to their deeds (v 3). Do not be like them. Do not practice Bad Religion.

The phrase the chair of Moses was a symbolic allusion to having moral or prophetic authority over God’s people.

Bottom line is that We are never to follow leaders who live an ungodly lifestyle. We are to examine their works and see how their deeds align with God’s word.

Their authority must be obeyed but they are not impeccable

Same kingdom authority as the apostles who also must be obeyed

 

[donadams]

More sins would be the proof of a prior false repentance from sin.
Nobody can forge a relationship with God that is based on a lie.

No a firm purpose of amendment is required

 

[Randy]

Then we must obey the apostles vis the have the same kingdom authority

Matt 21:43 taken from them

Given to Peter and the apostles Matt 16:18-19 & 18:18 lk 22:29

I'm myself am not bothered nor offended by Catholics addressing priests as Father in a leadership/sheppard context whether Jesus dislikes the practice or hierarchy set up in the Catholic Church I don't know. If I was a catholic priest I would seek a judgment from above in prayer but I am not so it will remain, "I don't know His judgment on the matter".

 

[Randy]

Randy.....I understand what you are saying and I repect it greatly.

I would only ask you that when you grew older and you actully read the Bbile, didn't it concern you that Jesus when said......In Matthew 23:1–12, "do not call any eartly man Father" that Jesus is denouncing the Jewish scribes and Pharisees for rejecting Him as their Messiah, in particular for their hypocrisy in elevating themselves above others with titles such as “teacher” and “master.”

Now personally....I do not care what you call your Pastor. However, as a Roman Catholic, I am sure that you call call your priests “father,” and the Pope is the “holy father.”

Abbots take their title from the Aramaic word abba, which means “father.” This is clearly unbiblical. The priest as “father” is problematic. In the case of “holy father,” there is no doubt this title is unbiblical.

No man can take on the title of “holy” anything, because only God is holy. This title gives the Pope a status that is never intended for any man on earth.

Of course what you do is your choice and all I am doing is pointing out the difference in what you do and what God sais we should not do.

If I attended a Catholic Mass now I would treat them with respect. I am not one sent from above as to tear down anyone. Paul selected male leadership only as I read but when he came upon women leaders he commended and encouraged them and praised them. He did not tear them down. I suggest likewise behavior and I am one who knows His Lord.

 

[Hopeful 2]

No a firm purpose of amendment is required

Buzz words ?
As God heareth not sinners, (John 9:31), the first, and all false repentances, from sin, wasn't even acknowledged by God.

 

[Randy]

Then we must obey the apostles vis the have the same kingdom authority

Matt 21:43 taken from them

Given to Peter and the apostles Matt 16:18-19 & 18:18 lk 22:29

There are 12 foundations of the City of God, the New Jerusalem, noted in Rev which are named after the 12 Apostles of the Lord. The 12 sit on 12 thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel. Clearly an office that exists beyond the life of the body. Only one abandoned that office. From scripture the 11 understood that one was to be replaced with another. They took it upon themselves and selected 2 Candidates prayed for the Lord to pick one and then cast lots. Though I note their motives were pure and they couldn't have known about Paul at that time they failed to wait for an answer from the Lord. Paul is/was God's choice, and he was already set aside from birth as in a choice already made by God.

 

[Rodger]

If I attended a Catholic Mass now I would treat them with respect. I am not one sent from above as to tear down anyone. Paul selected male leadership only as I read but when he came upon women leaders he commended and encouraged them and praised them. He did not tear them down. I suggest likewise behavior and I am one who knows His Lord.

So then, what you are saying in essence is that we should ignore any and all religions that call them selves Bible Christians but deny the Bible and make up their own rules.

Do you really think that is a wise decision?

Are you aware that the Jehovah Witnesses and Mormons claim to be Christians but they openly deny that Jesus is the Christ and is God in the flesh.

So from your comments, we should simply say nothing at all to try and educate them in what the Bible actually and literally says?

 

[Rodger]

Their authority must be obeyed but they are not impeccable

Same kingdom authority as the apostles who also must be obeyed

So you are telling me that according to Matthew 23, we are to obey the Pharisees and follow their authority?

Do you want to re-think what you just said?

You posted "THEIR authority". The context of Matthew 23 was Jesus opposing the authority of the Pharisees and they were the "Their authority" you just said we MUST obey.

 

[Rodger]

Yes, I do.

It sure got you excited, for something about which you have no earthly idea.

That is debatable.
Enoch and Elijah come to mind...John the baptist too.

They 'will be forgiven' IF they repent of sin and are baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins...and are reborn of God's seed...and endure faithfully until the end.

Either that, or, I have been reborn of incorruptible seed after having destroyed the first edition of me.

No, we are one or the other.

Agreed, both of which can prevent further disobedience to the One who saves us.

Those who continue to sin, under the name of Christ, are blaspheming the name of the Son of God.

Why do you ignore the verse before it ?
" But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin."
Quit walking in darkness, (sin), and start walking in the light, (God) !

Do you know God ?
It is written..."And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked." (1 John 2:3-6)

My dear friend......I am way to old to get excited. But (LOL) thanks for the idea!!!!!!

What is debatable is your understanding of the Bible. You just suggested that Enoch and Elijah and John the Baptist were not sinners.

That is catagorically wrong and is not Biblical and it is not debatable. THEY just like Adam and Daniel and Moses and Mary and David were SINNERS! YOU and ME are sinners.

You can believe all you want to your own opinions and what some false teachers has told you but YOU and they are wrong.

Romans 3:23...."ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God".
Romans 3:10...." There is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. 12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one."
Isaiah 64:6........." There is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. 12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one."

I do not mean to be disrespectful to you or mean spirited, it is I just do not know how to say this, but my friend, In my opinion you really need to read and study the Scriptures.

Again. I ask you........do YOU keep ALL the commandmenst of God? ALL of them?

Have you told a lie.
Have you used Gods name in vain.
Have you had a proud look?

 

[Rodger]

Not with me Rodger.
Maybe you were posting to someone else.
Unfortunately these threads are like this.

Personal....
Yes, it might have been taken as personal.
I'm saying that you are not an expert in Catholic Doctrine.
Can I not say that?
It's personal?

You make a statement about Catholic Doctrine...
I show you that it's incorrect with verses and additional CCC paragraphs.

YOU do not agree with the CC that baptism is required for salvation.
This means you don't believe we must be baptized to be saved.
WHERE in the NT does it state that baptism is not necessary?
Jesus, and others, state that it IS necessary....

You say that in Catholicism the doctrine is that good works/deeds save us.
And indeed they do and I've posted MANY verses that state this.
Including the words of JESUS.

Now,,,where in the NT does it state that we are NOT to do good works?

Ephesians 2:8 the go to verse for being saved by faith states that we are saved for good works.

8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

Verse 8 We are saved by faith...NOT BY WORKS....as I've stated many times, even the CC teaches this.

Verse 10 We are created in Christ Jesus for GOOD WORKS....exactly what the CC teaches and what most Protestant theologians teach.

Faith without works is dead.
Works without faith are dead.

Brother........Would you please post the quote, and its number where I said I was an expert on the Catholic religion?

I have only made BIBLE statements and then Catholic statemenst where they do not agree with those Bible statements. Is it not accetable to Catholic to be challenged on what they say they think the Bible says.

You asked me...........
"Now,,,where in the NT does it state that we are NOT to do good works?"

THAT is an ambiguous question with no meaning. YOU knew before you asked it that THERE IS NO SCRIPTURE THAT SAYS SUCH A THING. It seems to me that you asked a "Got cha" position.

So for the answer......The Scriptures ACTUALLY say in James 2:17---
"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone."

Now IYO, do you think that means we have to do works to be saved????

Of course it does not say that. It says that if we believe we have faith and are saved, then that faith in God will motivated us to do good works. Good works come from beingg a faith full believer in Christ and have nothing to do with salvation. Works are a product of salvation.

Now......since we have said this over and over and over, I have to ask you why you would ask me again????

THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH’S DOCTRINE OF SALVATION CAN BE SUMMARIZED AS FOLLOWS:

1. Rome teaches that Christ, having purchased redemption by His blood and death, delivered it to the Catholic Church to be distributed to men through her sacraments=WORKS.
That is in direct opposition to the words of Ephesians 2:8-9.

Rome’s gospel centers in the Catholic Church, the pope, the priesthood, and the sacraments.= WORKS.

Vatican II Council:

“For ‘God’s only-begotten Son ... has won a treasure for the militant Church ... he has entrusted it to blessed Peter, the key-bearer of heaven, and to his successors who are Christ’s vicars on earth, SO THAT THEY MAY DISTRIBUTE IT TO THE FAITHFUL FOR THEIR SALVATION.

Is it not true that the seven sacraments of the RCC are The seven sacraments—Baptism, Confirmation, Holy Communion, Confession, Marriage, Holy Orders, and the Anointing of the Sick.

Now you can deny all that day long but it is what it is. I AM NOT A PRIEST! No one has to be one to understand that.

 

[Rodger]

This is a problem we Protestants have....
THE TRUTH cannot be IMHO.
Your opinion does not matter when it comes to absolute truths involving God.

Do we need to ask forgiveness for our sins or not?

I'm not going back to look for where you posted what...
No time.

But if I'm replying to it it means that I get THE IMPRESSION that you're denying that GOOD WORKS/DEEDS are NECESSARY to be saved.

So I guess, then, that you agree with my statement here?

So since JESUS Himself said that good deeds/works are necessary for salvation,
then I guess that you DO AGREE?

Which, would be nice that ALL PROTESTANTS could at least agree on the fact that
GOD DEMANDS OBEDIENCE.

(I think I posted sufficient verses).

You said......
"But if I'm replying to it it means that I get THE IMPRESSION that you're denying that GOOD WORKS/DEEDS are NECESSARY to be saved.

So I guess, then, that you agree with my statement here?

So since JESUS Himself said that good deeds/works are necessary for salvation,
then I guess that you DO AGREE?"

Allow me to say AGAIN, CLEARLY, and SIMPLY.....THERE IS NOT ONE SINGLE THING WE MUST DO TO BE SAVED OUTSIDE OF ACCEPTING JESUS CHRIST AS OUR SAVIOUR!.

Anything you think we MUST do......Baptised, take communion, be a church member or anything else is totally false!!!!

And.......Jesus never said, thought, taught or suggested that good deeds or good works are necessary for salvation.

I do not know who told you that but it is NOT Biblical in any way.

Now YOU will, and most Catholics will use Matthew 19:16 -17 to support their idea of good works are needed to be saved.

This verse suffers from a double dose of misinterpretation. Both major statements made here are frequently ripped from their contexts and applied in ways not intended by Scripture which I am sure that is what you intend to do.

Instead of Jesus saying that good works are needed to be saved, rather He is emphasizing that the point is a pursuit of goodness. Jesus insists there is only One who is good. That One is God. In a roundabout way, Jesus is asking the man, "are you calling me God?" Jesus, as God's Son, is one with Him. It is Jesus' goodness on which we must rely in order to be truly saved (John 3:36).

The significance of this question plays into the rest of this encounter. If Jesus is God, and the standard of goodness, then those who truly seek good will follow His instruction (John 14:15). Christ will demonstrate to this man that he cannot be good enough to have eternal life on his own. He will need to receive Jesus' goodness so he can have eternal life.

Continuing that same lesson, Jesus tells the man to keep the commandments in order to see salvation.

Do YOU understand the LITERAL words Jesus said here??????

In order to be saved Perfect goodness would be required to be saved based on our own efforts.

That means that YOU will have to keep every commandment your entire life without fail.

The purpose of this statement is to point out that the man's goodness is imperfect. In the end, the man's response shows that he is not, in fact, truly willing to follow God (Matthew 19:22).

Now, before you ask me, I am not saying that we should not keep and follow the commandments of God WE SHOULD. What I am saying is that YOU and ME can not keep the commanmenst of God in order to be saved.

 

[Rodger]

NO Rodger....
not that kind of priest.

Cute though!

Thanks.

In all honesty, we are not talking about priestly functions here. NO ONE has to be a Catholic priest in order to point out the differences in Catholic theology compared to Bible directions....Do they?