Can a Saved man choose to be Lost?

[change]

Are you saying that The Holy Spirit forced us to worship God? WOW!!

Let me just regurgitate scripture:

Romans 9:10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac 11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.â€[d] 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.â€[e] 14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.â€[f] 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.â€[g] 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.
19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?†20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?†21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

Be very careful how you regurgitate your understanding of the scriptures:

Are you implying that God created some people and then hate them just for the sake of hating them? What kind of God do we serve? WOW!!! WOW!!!

Because God knows the hearts of man, even before they are born, he could arrive at a conclusion whom he hate or love - Psalms 139:1, Luke 16:15, Acts 1:24, Romans 8:27, Revelations 2:23.

God is not evil; God is love.

 

[jasoncran]

that's calvinism for you.

 

[DarcyLu]

actually that word used as hate in that verse in the greek means loved less. in the kjv using that same word translating you wouldnt assume that we are to hate our parents.

if any man hateth not his mother or father he cannot be my disciple.

hate in hebrew just means hate, hated

that verse about man hateth his mother means that we need to be willing to give them up for the sake of Christ.

it really does mean that, i just experienced it personally in my life and i was shown that verse before it happened and i was not clear what it meant - but now i do.

 

[faithtransforms]

what version is that? niv or esv?

It's the NKJV. The KJV states it this way:

6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

I just used the NKJV there because I didn't think the KJV was quite as easy to understand with regard to the rest. But it is still saying the saints will be recompensed with "rest" when Jesus comes with the holy angels in flaming fire, etc.

And please, don't ever accuse me of using the NIV again, lol ;)

 

[jasoncran]

actually in the greek it means to love less, why would God command to you honor your mother and father, and say that's the first commandment with a promise. and at the same time we are to hate them?

another rabbit trail.

 

[jasoncran]

Are you saying that The Holy Spirit forced us to worship God? WOW!!

Let me just regurgitate scripture:

Romans 9:10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac 11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.â€[d] 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.â€[e] 14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.â€[f] 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.â€[g] 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.
19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?†20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?†21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

i was addressing you faith but archangel! and this was text in question

 

[faithtransforms]

Gloydaz wrote:


It's a question of whether God is able to keep us nor not. I say He is.

God does not force his will on anyone. The Holy Spirit appeals to our consciences, but does not force anything on us. By free will we accept Christ's calling.

The Spirit of God keeps us in check - shows us the wrongs and rights.

We are the ones who are not keeping God.

then its legalism all over again. keep the law and your in heaven, keep christ and you are in heaven..

the sacrifice is just changed that's all.

That's not legalism. Jesus is able to keep us from falling, but we must receive His grace everyday to avoid the sin that can harden our heart and possibly end up costing us our salvation. Yes, we will mess up, and I'm the first to admit I mess up quite a bit, but He is faithful and just to forgive me as long as I repent. That is why I have assurance of my salvation. I believe even those who have gone out into willfull sin, that God is still trying to draw them back in and will until the day they died. I have strayed bigtime in the past. But God has always drawn me back in. However, if I did not let him draw me back in and continued willfully sinning until I died without repenting, I believe my salvation would be lost.

 

[DarcyLu]

actually in the greek it means to love less, why would God command to you honor your mother and father, and say that's the first commandment with a promise. and at the same time we are to hate them?

another rabbit trail.

because it means that we must be willing to lose everything for the sake of Christ! it's not a literal statement, it's taking something we are to cherish (our mothers) and be willing to give her (everything) up for His sake.

it's a spiritual message, if you take it literally than you must hate your mother. lol

 

[faithtransforms]

Are you saying that The Holy Spirit forced us to worship God? WOW!!

Let me just regurgitate scripture:

Romans 9:10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac 11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.â€[d] 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.â€[e] 14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.â€[f] 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.â€[g] 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.
19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?†20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?†21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

Be very careful how you regurgitate your understanding of the scriptures:

Are you implying that God created some people and then hate them just for the sake of hating them? What kind of God do we serve? WOW!!! WOW!!!

Because God knows the hearts of man, even before they are born, he could come arrive at a conclusion whom he hate or love - Psalms 139:1, Luke 16:15, Acts 1:24, Romans 8:27, Revelations 2:23.

God is not evil; God is love.

I have really struggled with Romans 9. When I first read it I was appalled. I couldn't understand it, and to be frank, I still don't. I did read in one of my study bibles that it is implied that vessels of destruction PREPARED themselves for destruction. I don't know if that is true. But I have struggled with Romans ch 9 more than any other scripture in the bible.

 

[jasoncran]

that's what you meant when you say it means to hate literally by translation. look it up in the greek. it aint the word for it to hate, but love less.meaning that christ must be first

 

[jasoncran]

Edit postDelete postReport this postWarn userInformationReply with quoteRe: Can a Saved man choose to be Lost?
by faithtransforms on Sun Apr 04, 2010 5:18 pm

jasoncran wrote:
change wrote:
Gloydaz wrote:


It's a question of whether God is able to keep us nor not. I say He is.

God does not force his will on anyone. The Holy Spirit appeals to our consciences, but does not force anything on us. By free will we accept Christ's calling.

The Spirit of God keeps us in check - shows us the wrongs and rights.

We are the ones who are not keeping God.
then its legalism all over again. keep the law and your in heaven, keep christ and you are in heaven..

the sacrifice is just changed that's all.

That's not legalism. Jesus is able to keep us from falling, but we must receive His grace everyday to avoid the sin that can harden our heart and possibly end up costing us our salvation. Yes, we will mess up, and I'm the first to admit I mess up quite a bit, but He is faithful and just to forgive me as long as I repent. That is why I have assurance of my salvation. I believe even those who have gone out into willfull sin, that God is still trying to draw them back in and will until the day they died. I have strayed bigtime in the past. But God has always drawn me back in. However, if I did not let him draw me back in and continued willfully sinning until I died without repenting, I believe my salvation would be lost

the problem with that is, are you ever good enough. think about it. no. you state that if we die without forgiving our enemies will be allowed in.odd so we can enter into heaven in sin?

think about what you have said and what jesus commanded.

 

[archangel_300]

Because God knows the hearts of man, even before they are born, he could come arrive at a conclusion whom he hate or love - Psalms 139:1, Luke 16:15, Acts 1:24, Romans 8:27, Revelations 2:23.

God is not evil; God is love.

God is not evil... we are. None of us are worthy of heaven and all of us deserve to pay for all the sins we commit in our life. If God chooses some people (not based on anything we do) and not others who can fault him? There is no difference between me and another sinner... we are all transgressors of the law. There is nothing in and of ourselves that warrants any sort of merit from God.

None of us seek after God in our own human nature. This is the state we are in since birth until the time Christ comes to save us. Romans 3:10-11

Psalm 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb;They go astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies.

Romans 9:10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac 11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.â€[d] 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.â€[e]

But when the gospel call comes to us and we respond it takes on the appearance of a free will decision we make when in essence at the very core it is Christ who accomplished the work within us first.

Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.
7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, 9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, 10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both[a] which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him. 11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.

 

[faithtransforms]

jasoncran wrote:

We are the ones who are not keeping God.
then its legalism all over again. keep the law and your in heaven, keep christ and you are in heaven..

the sacrifice is just changed that's all.

That's not legalism. Jesus is able to keep us from falling, but we must receive His grace everyday to avoid the sin that can harden our heart and possibly end up costing us our salvation. Yes, we will mess up, and I'm the first to admit I mess up quite a bit, but He is faithful and just to forgive me as long as I repent. That is why I have assurance of my salvation. I believe even those who have gone out into willfull sin, that God is still trying to draw them back in and will until the day they died. I have strayed bigtime in the past. But God has always drawn me back in. However, if I did not let him draw me back in and continued willfully sinning until I died without repenting, I believe my salvation would be lost

the problem with that is, are you ever good enough. think about it. no. you state that if we die without forgiving our enemies will be allowed in.odd so we can enter into heaven in sin?

think about what you have said and what jesus commanded.

I don't understand what you do not understand what I have posted. Only the Blood of Jesus makes us fit to enter the Kingdom of God. I am BY NO MEANS saying that you can pursue holiness in your own strength. I have repeatedly said you must receive the grace of God daily to keep you from sin and I have repeatedly said that God forgives us and cleanses us when we mess up. Where have I implied that you can do ANYTHING in your own strength. Jesus said "Without Me you can do nothing". And I say Amen to that!!!

 

[change]

We have free will to choose God...to accept Christ's calling, as you say.

glory, i'm sorry but come on......we don't chose God, He chooses us. He loved us first, He died while we were in our sins, He chose the Israelites, they did not chose Him. He must first put His love on us.

please give us a verse where it says what you are saying.......

Yes, we do have free will to choose God. God gives a choice to choose his ways. We are not robots.

"I call heaven and earth to witness against you that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse: therefore choose life, that both you and your children may live" See also John 3:16.

 

[jasoncran]

but the question is are your more saved by holiness if it must sought after in order to keep salvation.
its sought after salvation as an evidence not for, slight difference

you say one must be holy to be saved
i say you will be holy because you are saved.

 

[archangel_300]

To understand election and predestination a bit further you need to understand how Christ atones for sin. According to the justice of God *every* single sin requires payment to be made. God is perfectly righteous and just. No sin that ever enters into this universe ever goes unpunished.
When Christ died on the cross for our sins he *PAID* for our sins, meaning that He took ALL my sins I would commit in my life from my very birth to my last dying breath. He suffered under God's wrath for my sin equivalent to me spending an eternity under damnation. This occurred 2000 years ago... so it was before I was even born. All the things I would do in my life were already known and paid for by Christ before my very first breath.

That's why you cannot lose your salvation. If your sins are COMPLETELY PAID for and you can lose your salvation and and in doing so end up in hell having to pay for them again it means that God is not just or righteous.

 

[jasoncran]

amen to that.

 

[truthlover]

I've been able to find seven scripturally recommended choices: Life, way of truth, God's precepts, serving Him, fearing Him, a good name and favor among men (above wealth), and pleasing Him. The implication, in some cases explicilty stated, is that we can also choose some alternative to what is encouraged.

Since death and life are in the power of the tongue, and it is by our words that we are either saved or condemned, I hear God saying that we choose by saying, "I choose ..." Thus, backsliding or stumbling may not be a choice.

If I suspected that I was not chosen by God for salvation, or even that I had been created by God as a vessel of wrath, I would declare that I choose His life, knowing Him and His Son. I would ask Him to change His mind concerning me, if necessary, and in any case, to choose me for salvation. And I would pester Him until He gave me the assurance of salvation I was seeking, even a word of prophecy that I could confess unto salvation.

If He has predestined me for salvation, well good. If not, let's get that plan changed! I choose life, truth, I choose it all.

In talking to Him about this, He seemed pleased, and then told me my election and calling were to be at His side for eternity.
Truthlover

 

[DarcyLu]

I have really struggled with Romans 9. When I first read it I was appalled. I couldn't understand it, and to be frank, I still don't. I did read in one of my study bibles that it is implied that vessels of destruction PREPARED themselves for destruction. I don't know if that is true. But I have struggled with Romans ch 9 more than any other scripture in the bible.

it means what it says, and it comes down to the wheat and the tares, God is using the tares to perfect us.

 

[faithtransforms]

but the question is are your more saved by holiness if it must sought after in order to keep salvation.
its sought after salvation as an evidence not for, slight difference

you say one must be holy to be saved
i say you will be holy because you are saved.

I think when we stand before Jesus, we will be accountable for what we know. Many people don't KNOW the commandments of holiness in the NT. I do not believe they will be punished for that, except Jesus may say "If you'd read my Word more you would have known that." I didn't say you have to be holy to be saved either. Like I have said, IMO, the only way to lose your salvation is to either reject Christ entirely, or to go off into willfull sin and never repent before you die. We are made the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus. We are righteous now. I emphasize holiness because it is what separates us from the world, and clearly if you read 2 COR 7, we are to "come out from among them." The world should be able to see we are different, that when we are insulted, we don't insult back, when we are in the middle of a storm, we are calm and our trust in the Lord and His provision. That we do not speak with foul mouths or watch movies with excessive violence, sex of foul language. That we do not listen to secular music that is filled with selfishness and is mostly about partying, sex, etc. Even secular love songs end up making the object of their love an idol (I can't live without you type of stuff). I'm not judging people for what they do, only God can look on the heart. But as Christians, we need to be the light of the world, and we cannot be if we are living just like them.