Can a Saved man choose to be Lost?

[glorydaz]

We have free will to choose God...to accept Christ's calling, as you say.

glory, i'm sorry but come on......we don't chose God, He chooses us. He loved us first, He died while we were in our sins, He chose the Israelites, they did not chose Him. He must first put His love on us.

please give us a verse where it says what you are saying.......

My you're quick to jump.

We must always search the whole Word of God...

Here ya go....

I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

 

[DarcyLu]

We have free will to choose God...to accept Christ's calling, as you say.

glory, i'm sorry but come on......we don't chose God, He chooses us. He loved us first, He died while we were in our sins, He chose the Israelites, they did not chose Him. He must first put His love on us.

please give us a verse where it says what you are saying.......

My you're quick to jump.

We must always search the whole Word of God...

Here ya go....

I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

[quote="Joshua 24:15":1p0zpugl]And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

[/quote:1p0zpugl]

just think about this, before we were saved, when we were still sinners, these things were true, correct?

cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14).
is full of evil (Mark 7:21-23).
does not seek for God (Rom. 3:11).
is lawless, rebellious, unholy, and profane (1 Tim. 1:9).

but with Jesus

"With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible" (Matthew 19:26)

we are saved because God chose us, after repentance and baptism, we are to abide in Christ now.
"No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me draws him..." (John 6:44)

"No one can come to Me, unless it has been granted him from the Father" (John 6:65).

Acts 13:48: And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; AND AS MANY AS HAD BEEN APPOINTED TO ETERNAL LIFE BELIEVED.

there are many more verses that talk of this.

 

[DarcyLu]

more verses on predestination:

John 1:12-13: But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, WHO WERE BORN NOT OF BLOOD, NOR OF THE WILL OF THE FLESH, NOR OF THE WILL OF MAN, BUT OF GOD.

Philippians 1:29: FOR TO YOU IT HAS BEEN GRANTED FOR CHRIST'S SAKE, NOT ONLY TO BELIEVE IN HIM, but also to suffer for his sake.

Romans 8:29-30: FOR WHOM HE FOREKNEW, HE ALSO PREDESTINED to become conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first-born among many brethren; and whom He predestined, these He also called; and whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Ephesians 1:5: HE PREDESTINED US to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will.

Ephesians 1:11 Also WE HAVE OBTAINED AN INHERITANCE, HAVING BEEN PREDESTINED ACCORDING TO HIS PURPOSE who works all things after the counsel of His will.

 

[archangel_300]

My you're quick to jump.

We must always search the whole Word of God...

Here ya go....

I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

[quote="Joshua 24:15":25nugnni]And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

[/quote:25nugnni]

Ahh... glory, but how would you deal with these verses?

Matthew 22:14
“For many are called, but few are chosen.â€

John 6:64 But there are some of you who do not believe.†For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.â€
66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?†68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.†70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?†71 He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for it was he who would betray Him, being one of the twelve.

Again in John 15:16 talking to his disciples...

John 15:16 You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you.

1 Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;

The gospel call of salvation goes out to everyone... "Choose eternal life" or "Believe on Christ for salvation" But only those who respond to the call are the ones that have first been chosen by God.

 

[DarcyLu]

Greek definition for hate


1. (n.) To have a great aversion to, with a strong desire that evil should befall the person toward whom the feeling is directed; to dislike intensely; to detest; as, to hate one's enemies; to hate hypocrisy.

2. (n.) To be very unwilling; followed by an infinitive, or a substantive clause with that; as, to hate to get into debt; to hate that anything should be wasted.

3. (n.) To love less, relatively.

4. (v.) Strong aversion coupled with desire that evil should befall the person toward whom the feeling is directed; as exercised toward things, intense dislike; hatred; detestation; -- opposed to love.

my case on that word in greek rests.

in the strong's for this verse, hate means to detest, love less, hate(ful)

 

[glorydaz]

We have free will to choose God...to accept Christ's calling, as you say.

glory, i'm sorry but come on......we don't chose God, He chooses us. He loved us first, He died while we were in our sins, He chose the Israelites, they did not chose Him. He must first put His love on us.

please give us a verse where it says what you are saying.......

can we not say no?

LOL...I'm pretty sure we can.

Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

 

[jasoncran]

Greek definition for hate


1. (n.) To have a great aversion to, with a strong desire that evil should befall the person toward whom the feeling is directed; to dislike intensely; to detest; as, to hate one's enemies; to hate hypocrisy.

2. (n.) To be very unwilling; followed by an infinitive, or a substantive clause with that; as, to hate to get into debt; to hate that anything should be wasted.

3. (n.) To love less, relatively.

4. (v.) Strong aversion coupled with desire that evil should befall the person toward whom the feeling is directed; as exercised toward things, intense dislike; hatred; detestation; -- opposed to love.

my case on that word in greek rests.

in the strong's for this verse, hate means to detest, love less, hate(ful)

did i not say to love less, that can imply to mean to love something more.

what you are saying is that we must LOATHE our parents in order to be saved.

 

[glorydaz]

My you're quick to jump.

We must always search the whole Word of God...

Here ya go....

I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

[quote="Joshua 24:15":1q9optje]And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

just think about this, before we were saved, when we were still sinners, these things were true, correct?

cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14).
is full of evil (Mark 7:21-23).
does not seek for God (Rom. 3:11).
is lawless, rebellious, unholy, and profane (1 Tim. 1:9).

but with Jesus

"With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible" (Matthew 19:26)

we are saved because God chose us, after repentance and baptism, we are to abide in Christ now.
"No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me draws him..." (John 6:44)

"No one can come to Me, unless it has been granted him from the Father" (John 6:65).

Acts 13:48: And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; AND AS MANY AS HAD BEEN APPOINTED TO ETERNAL LIFE BELIEVED.

there are many more verses that talk of this.[/quote:1q9optje]
I understand all those verses...they do not negate the ones I posted.
There is always a danger is standing on certain verses and throwing out the others.
It gives us an unbalanced and incorrect understanding of the Word of God.

That is the problem with the doctrines of men. I see the same thing when scripture is given on the promises of God to keep those who are His. People pick a couple of verses that seem to negate the others. That's simply error because the Word is in total agreement with itself. It's man's understanding that fails.

We are predestined to be conformed into His image. God draws all men to Himself. Does that mean we don't have free will and can neither choose nor resist? No, it doesn't. I will not throw out any verse, and I certainly hope that isn't what you're doing here.

 

[DarcyLu]

in the strong's for this verse, hate means to detest, love less, hate(ful)

did i not say to love less, that can imply to mean to love something more.

what you are saying is that we must LOATHE our parents in order to be saved.[/quote]
yes, i know, i was simply adding exactly what strong's said.
i still believe it means we need to be willing to give up all for Christ. but the way you are seeing it is that God has to be our first love, which i agree with, too. see, it's all good.

 

[DarcyLu]

just think about this, before we were saved, when we were still sinners, these things were true, correct?

cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14).
is full of evil (Mark 7:21-23).
does not seek for God (Rom. 3:11).
is lawless, rebellious, unholy, and profane (1 Tim. 1:9).

but with Jesus

"With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible" (Matthew 19:26)

we are saved because God chose us, after repentance and baptism, we are to abide in Christ now.
"No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me draws him..." (John 6:44)

"No one can come to Me, unless it has been granted him from the Father" (John 6:65).

Acts 13:48: And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; AND AS MANY AS HAD BEEN APPOINTED TO ETERNAL LIFE BELIEVED.

there are many more verses that talk of this.

I understand all those verses...they do not negate the ones I posted.
There is always a danger is standing on certain verses and throwing out the others.
It gives us an unbalanced and incorrect understanding of the Word of God.

That is the problem with the doctrines of men. I see the same thing when scripture is given on the promises of God to keep those who are His. People pick a couple of verses that seem to negate the others. That's simply error because the Word is in total agreement with itself. It's man's understanding that fails.

We are predestined to be conformed into His image. God draws all men to Himself. Does that mean we don't have free will and can neither choose nor resist? No, it doesn't. I will not throw out any verse, and I certainly hope that isn't what you're doing here.[/quote]
*********************************************************
yes and i am living in the new covenant now and this is what the NT has to say about it. After we are saved then yes, we do need to choose to die to ourselves on a daily basis and allow Christ to be manifested in us.

 

[glorydaz]

more verses on predestination:

John 1:12-13: But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, WHO WERE BORN NOT OF BLOOD, NOR OF THE WILL OF THE FLESH, NOR OF THE WILL OF MAN, BUT OF GOD.

Philippians 1:29: FOR TO YOU IT HAS BEEN GRANTED FOR CHRIST'S SAKE, NOT ONLY TO BELIEVE IN HIM, but also to suffer for his sake.

Romans 8:29-30: FOR WHOM HE FOREKNEW, HE ALSO PREDESTINED to become conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first-born among many brethren; and whom He predestined, these He also called; and whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Ephesians 1:5: HE PREDESTINED US to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will.

Ephesians 1:11 Also WE HAVE OBTAINED AN INHERITANCE, HAVING BEEN PREDESTINED ACCORDING TO HIS PURPOSE who works all things after the counsel of His will.

I don't understand why you see a contradition with the verses I posted. Are you denying them because you don't have a full understanding? I believe you are. Notice in John 1:12..."as many as received Him" (as opposed to rejected). Phil. doesn't address the issue...God grants us repentance when He sees the true condition of our heart. And Romans...of course God foreknew us...He's God. And those He foreknew He predestined to "become conformed". The foreknowledge of God does not negate our freewill...it simply means He knows everything...who will turn to Him and who will resist Him. Not one verse negates the verses I posted.

 

[DarcyLu]

more verses on predestination:

John 1:12-13: But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, WHO WERE BORN NOT OF BLOOD, NOR OF THE WILL OF THE FLESH, NOR OF THE WILL OF MAN, BUT OF GOD.

Philippians 1:29: FOR TO YOU IT HAS BEEN GRANTED FOR CHRIST'S SAKE, NOT ONLY TO BELIEVE IN HIM, but also to suffer for his sake.

Romans 8:29-30: FOR WHOM HE FOREKNEW, HE ALSO PREDESTINED to become conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first-born among many brethren; and whom He predestined, these He also called; and whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Ephesians 1:5: HE PREDESTINED US to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will.

Ephesians 1:11 Also WE HAVE OBTAINED AN INHERITANCE, HAVING BEEN PREDESTINED ACCORDING TO HIS PURPOSE who works all things after the counsel of His will.

I don't understand why you see a contradition with the verses I posted. Are you denying them because you don't have a full understanding? I believe you are. Notice in John 1:12..."as many as received Him" (as opposed to rejected). Phil. doesn't address the issue...God grants us repentance when He sees the true condition of our heart. And Romans...of course God foreknew us...He's God. And those He foreknew He predestined to "become conformed". The foreknowledge of God does not negate our freewill...it simply means He knows everything...who will turn to Him and who will resist Him. Not one verse negates the verses I posted.

Phil's is saying that He granted (allowed) us to believe in Him. in John you are ignoring the part that says, "He gave us the right" - did we give ourselves that right? NO He did. yes, He does know who will be saved and He predestined and those He predestinated will be conformed into His Son - do you think an evil person is predestined to be conformed into Jesus?
i am not negating what you said either, your verses simply are saying that we must chose to die to ourselves and live in Christ as any other way means death spiritually.

 

[glorydaz]

My you're quick to jump.

We must always search the whole Word of God...

Here ya go....
[quote="Deuteronomy 30:19":2tc06gui]I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

[quote="Joshua 24:15":2tc06gui]And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

[/quote:2tc06gui]

Ahh... glory, but how would you deal with these verses?

Matthew 22:14
“For many are called, but few are chosen.â€

John 6:64 But there are some of you who do not believe.†For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.â€
66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?†68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.†70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?†71 He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for it was he who would betray Him, being one of the twelve.

Again in John 15:16 talking to his disciples...

John 15:16 You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you.

1 Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;

The gospel call of salvation goes out to everyone... "Choose eternal life" or "Believe on Christ for salvation" But only those who respond to the call are the ones that have first been chosen by God.[/quote:2tc06gui]

Why do I have to deal with them? I believe every word in the Bible, including the ones I posted. Many are called...God draws all men. Few are chosen because not all are willing to forsake all and follow Him. Of course Jesus knew who would come...He's God. Repentance was granted because He saw into our heart. We may fool ourselves, but we can't fool God. He chose us because He's known our hearts from our conception. He knew we would choose Him before we knew we would choose Him. That still does not negate our choosing. I have never claimed God is not greater than man...He knows all things. But that does not negate man's free will. All men are called to repentance...He is not willing that any should perish but come to repentance. You would think, with your natural understanding that all would come to repentance if that was God's will. There's that strange thing that pits God's sovereignty against man's free will. They both exist.

 

[glorydaz]

yes and i am living in the new covenant now and this is what the NT has to say about it. After we are saved then yes, we do need to choose to die to ourselves on a daily basis and allow Christ to be manifested in us.

Living in the NT does not negate the Word of God. It just needs to be understood correctly. God sets before us life or death, and we must choose. There is nothing in the New Testament that negates that.

It's like the serpent on the pole....we must turn and look upon the Lord.
There is no way to get around that.

And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.

 

[archangel_300]

Why do I have to deal with them? I believe every word in the Bible, including the ones I posted. Many are called...God draws all men. Few are chosen because not all are willing to forsake all and follow Him. Of course Jesus knew who would come...He's God. Repentance was granted because He saw into our heart. We may fool ourselves, but we can't fool God. He chose us because He's known our hearts from our conception. He knew we would choose Him before we knew we would choose Him. That still does not negate our choosing. I have never claimed God is not greater than man...He knows all things. But that does not negate man's free will. All men are called to repentance...He is not willing that any should perish but come to repentance. You would think, with your natural understanding that all would come to repentance if that was God's will. There's that strange thing that pits God's sovereignty against man's free will. They both exist.

But how can we in our ownselves choose God if the natural man does not receive the things of God?

1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

If God were to wait until mankind chooses him none would... Romans 3:10-11

 

[DarcyLu]

He knew we would choose Him before we knew we would choose Him.

i'm not making fun of you glory, it just made me laugh, say it 5 times fast. lol

predestination is a pre determination by God. He chose the Israelites, He chose Moses and it was not because Moses chose Him, God has a plan and He already knows exactly what that plan is. do you think He created Adam and Eve not knowing they would sin? did He create satan, not knowing what satan would do? no - God knows all from beginning to end and He is in control of it all.

Our free will comes into play with chosing to abiding in Christ, chosing not to sin.

 

[DarcyLu]

Why do I have to deal with them? I believe every word in the Bible, including the ones I posted. Many are called...God draws all men. Few are chosen because not all are willing to forsake all and follow Him. Of course Jesus knew who would come...He's God. Repentance was granted because He saw into our heart. We may fool ourselves, but we can't fool God. He chose us because He's known our hearts from our conception. He knew we would choose Him before we knew we would choose Him. That still does not negate our choosing. I have never claimed God is not greater than man...He knows all things. But that does not negate man's free will. All men are called to repentance...He is not willing that any should perish but come to repentance. You would think, with your natural understanding that all would come to repentance if that was God's will. There's that strange thing that pits God's sovereignty against man's free will. They both exist.

But how can we in our ownselves choose God if the natural man does not receive the things of God?

1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

If God were to wait until mankind chooses him none would... Romans 3:10-11

yes, this is very true, we can do nothing at all, He must draw us to Himself.

 

[glorydaz]

that's what you meant when you say it means to hate literally by translation. look it up in the greek. it aint the word for it to hate, but love less.meaning that christ must be first

Jason is correct !

the verse we are discussing is in the NT, which is Hebrew, not Greek:
Luke 14:26
26"If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—he cannot be my disciple.

to hate
Original Word: ?????
Transliteration: miseó
Phonetic Spelling: (mis-eh'-o)
Short Definition: hate

Word Origin
from misos (hatred)
Definition
to hate
NASB Word Usage
hate (13), hated (12), hateful (1), hates (12), hating (2).

Actually, the NT is Greek, and the word is "miseo". But it doesn't matter if it's Greek or Hebrew. The truth is Jesus is not telling us to hate. He is telling us to love God more than anything else. As used, it means to "love less".

It's like this verse in Gen.

And he went in also unto Rachel, and he loved also Rachel more than Leah, and served with him yet seven other years. And when the LORD saw that Leah was hated, he opened her womb: but Rachel was barren.

 

[DarcyLu]

Actually, the NT is Greek, and the word is "miseo". But it doesn't matter if it's Greek or Hebrew. The truth is Jesus is not telling us to hate. He is telling us to love God more than anything else. As used, it means to "love less".

yeah, i know i messed up, i agree, God must be our first love.

 

[glorydaz]

He knew we would choose Him before we knew we would choose Him.

i'm not making fun of you glory, it just made me laugh, say it 5 times fast. lol

predestination is a pre determination by God. He chose the Israelites, He chose Moses and it was not because Moses chose Him, God has a plan and He already knows exactly what that plan is. do you think He created Adam and Eve not knowing they would sin? did He create satan, not knowing what satan would do? no - God knows all from beginning to end and He is in control of it all.

Our free will comes into play with chosing to abiding in Christ, chosing not to sin.

No, it is not "pre-determination". That would void free will and make us no more than puppets.
Just because God knows all, does not mean He did not give man free will.

I don't "think" any of those silly little scenarios you laid out. But I do know that God has given man a free will, and all the claiming otherwise does not change that fact. Our free will comes in when we choose to look upon Jesus. God draws, we respond. We can reject Him. One must take the whole Word of God else we end up sounding like Calvinists who think man has no choice and some are created for wrath. That's just outright error.