Can a Saved man choose to be Lost?

[archangel_300]

I believe salvation can be lost, yet I have every assurance. I am assured that God will not tempt me more than i am able to bear, I am assured that Jesus is able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him. I am assured that as long as I do not reject Christ and I am obedient to His voice (with the obvious caveat that we will fall sometimes) that I will spend eternity with Jesus in heaven. I believe you can lose your salvation, but I don't think it's easy to do. You basically have to reject Christ or go off into willfull sin and never repent before you die. That's it. God is full of grace and mercy.

But:

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye , shall he be thought worthy , who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified , an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said , Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense , saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

As you can see, these verses are talking about someone who has already been sanctified by the blood of Christ

Hi Faith,

I dug this up from a previous post.

mondar wrote:
The willful sin is not just any sin. I put in red a phrase that follows verse 26. The willful sin in the context is counting "the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing..." The willful sin is for Jewish person, or Hebrew person who were among believers to return to the law as a means of justification. Such behavior would trod "underfoot the Son of God." This is the willful sin. Jewish people were leaving the christian assembly (see 10:25) and returning to Judiasm. The were leaving Christ for the Pharisaical Law. These Jews received a "knowledge of the truth." They did not have a faith in the truth and so went back to Judiasm. The judgment spoken of is the judgment of the law. Read Dueteronomy 28-29 and see the curses of the Law.

*** Is not focusing only on the underlined part quoting it out of context? Yes? No? Do we have to read verses 26 & 27 with the later part of the quote? Is the "willful sin" "treading underfoot the blood" by returning to Temple Judiasm?

I would have to agree with mondar here that when read its correct context is referring to the Hebrew person who after receiving the knowledge of Christ returns to the law as a means for justification.

 

[faithtransforms]

mondar wrote:
The willful sin is not just any sin. I put in red a phrase that follows verse 26. The willful sin in the context is counting "the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing..." The willful sin is for Jewish person, or Hebrew person who were among believers to return to the law as a means of justification. Such behavior would trod "underfoot the Son of God." This is the willful sin. Jewish people were leaving the christian assembly (see 10:25) and returning to Judiasm. The were leaving Christ for the Pharisaical Law. These Jews received a "knowledge of the truth." They did not have a faith in the truth and so went back to Judiasm. The judgment spoken of is the judgment of the law. Read Dueteronomy 28-29 and see the curses of the Law.

*** Is not focusing only on the underlined part quoting it out of context? Yes? No? Do we have to read verses 26 & 27 with the later part of the quote? Is the "willful sin" "treading underfoot the blood" by returning to Temple Judiasm?

archangel_300 wrote:
I would have to agree with mondar here that when read its correct context is referring to the Hebrew person who after receiving the knowledge of Christ returns to the law as a means for justification.

While I would agree this seems perfectly logical, but I just re-read Heb 10 and nowhere is it warning them not to return to Judaism. And the point is here he was talking to BELIEVERS!. Yes, if they went back to the law and forsook the new covenant and the blood by which it was ratified, they woudl LOSE THEIR SALVATION!!! This book is NOT written to unbelievers, but to BELIEVERS!!! In one place it says, "you should have been teachers by now". The writer was saying they were believers but hadn't' growin in their faith. This book is written to BELIEVERS!!!

 

[faithtransforms]

Also, in Heb 6, it says it would be impossible to RENEW them again to repentence. Why would he say they could not be RENEWED to repentence if they had never repented and accepted the Lord to start with?

 

[jasoncran]

not really as in that context to return the law a tradition of taking a pig was used and its blood was spit on and the person who was persucted was asked what they thought of the blood of christ(they spit on the pig's blood which represented the blood of christ). if you can do that. you arent saved to begin with.

that was done to the persecuted christians(hebrew).

 

[DarcyLu]

While I would agree this seems perfectly logical, but I just re-read Heb 10 and nowhere is it warning them not to return to Judaism. And the point is here he was talking to BELIEVERS!. Yes, if they went back to the law and forsook the new covenant and the blood by which it was ratified, they woudl LOSE THEIR SALVATION!!! This book is NOT written to unbelievers, but to BELIEVERS!!! In one place it says, "you should have been teachers by now". The writer was saying they were believers but hadn't' growin in their faith. This book is written to BELIEVERS!!!

i agree, it was written to believers, you can not lose something or fall away from something unless you belonged to it in the first place!!!!

 

[faithtransforms]

While I would agree this seems perfectly logical, but I just re-read Heb 10 and nowhere is it warning them not to return to Judaism. And the point is here he was talking to BELIEVERS!. Yes, if they went back to the law and forsook the new covenant and the blood by which it was ratified, they woudl LOSE THEIR SALVATION!!! This book is NOT written to unbelievers, but to BELIEVERS!!! In one place it says, "you should have been teachers by now". The writer was saying they were believers but hadn't' growin in their faith. This book is written to BELIEVERS!!!

i agree, it was written to believers, you can not lose something or fall away from something unless you belonged to it in the first place!!!!

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[jasoncran]

so let me ask you this since you believe that the church shall go throught the tribulation and this relates.

how is that the elect are decieved and that the h.s allows the anti-christ to rise up and decieve many.
if the h.s. is in us and leaves us ( he leaves the earth)

2 thessalonians 2:7

For the mystery of iniquity doth already work:only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

is the saints in the trib without the h.s., or was it taken from then.

that word used is taken?

 

[faithtransforms]

so let me ask you this since you believe that the church shall go throught the tribulation and this relates.

how is that the elect are decieved and that the h.s allows the anti-christ to rise up and decieve many.
if the h.s. is in us and leaves us ( he leaves the earth)

2 thessalonians 2:7

For the mystery of iniquity doth already work:only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

is the saints in the trib without the h.s., or was it taken from then.

that word used is taken?

Personally, the scripture that convinced me the church would go through the tribulation is this:

2 Thess 2:

4 so that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that you endure,
5 which is manifest evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer;
6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you,
7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels,
8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.
11 Therefore we also pray always for you that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfill all the good pleasure of His goodness and the work of faith with power,

Notice Paul is telling the saints that our "rest" will come when Jesus is revealed from heaven with the holy angels in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. I don't think Jesus will be taking vengeance with flaming fire at the rapture. It sounds like the 2nd coming to me.

On another note, verse 11 says that God must count you worthy of this calling. If we are OSAS, why would he say this, if it's already "in the bag" that you are saved no matter what?

 

[DarcyLu]

so let me ask you this since you believe that the church shall go throught the tribulation and this relates.

how is that the elect are decieved and that the h.s allows the anti-christ to rise up and decieve many.
if the h.s. is in us and leaves us ( he leaves the earth)

2 thessalonians 2:7

For the mystery of iniquity doth already work:only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

is the saints in the trib without the h.s., or was it taken from then.

that word used is taken?

the Holy Spirit does not leave the earth, the 2nd coming, will be in the saints.
the elect is deceived by false teachers, false prophets and false doctrines.

 

[faithtransforms]

I totally agree that the Holy Spirit will NOT be taken away during the tribulation. If he were, how would anyone get saved?!?!?

I'm not sure who that passage is saying will be taken away, but its NOT the Holy Spirit.

 

[jasoncran]

heres the problem with that thinking. what is the abnomation of desloation and why is the city of jerusalem so important? and also what of these 144,000 male virgin jews. and then theres the witness who are most likely not gentiles.

why does the book of ezekiel talk about and acts talk about the return of christ in mount of olives. for a land forsaken why there?

Jesus rules from jerusalem not anywhere else. odd for a city forsaken totally, and the gentile church the new isreal.

then theres those in heaven beheaded for their faith.

so how many will die this way? what about what i mentioned the h.s leaves the earth. if the holy spirit resides in us and we are on the earth then what did we do( the faithful) to cause him to just leave us.

darcy lu the greek word for taken is harpazzio

he be taken out of the way. so the holy spirit in us loses power and we can win souls any more no work miracles. remember in the trib satan can perform miracles!

the saints are over taken , slaughtered!where is the promise that you claim we perform healings then if the holy spirit hasnt left the earth!


so, the holy spirit goes silent and lets us be overun. or what

 

[jasoncran]

I totally agree that the Holy Spirit will NOT be taken away during the tribulation. If he were, how would anyone get saved?!?!?

I'm not sure who that passage is saying will be taken away, but its NOT the Holy Spirit.

what do you think Isreal is for? to reach the lost. the 144,000 go forth and witness.

what of the temple, why is it mentioned in the trib? why does the anti-christ proclaim he is God from jerusalem?
he helps build it and then he set him self up as God in it.

 

[DarcyLu]

I totally agree that the Holy Spirit will NOT be taken away during the tribulation. If he were, how would anyone get saved?!?!?

I'm not sure who that passage is saying will be taken away, but its NOT the Holy Spirit.

God is holding Satan back, the "holding back" will be "taken away", if you read the rest of that verse, it tells us what to expect.
2 Thess
1Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers, 2not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come. 3Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for (that day will not come) until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness[a] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God.
5Don't you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? 6And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. 8And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. 9The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, 10and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

 

[DarcyLu]

I totally agree that the Holy Spirit will NOT be taken away during the tribulation. If he were, how would anyone get saved?!?!?

I'm not sure who that passage is saying will be taken away, but its NOT the Holy Spirit.

what do you think Isreal is for? to reach the lost. the 144,000 go forth and witness.

what of the temple, why is it mentioned in the trib? why does the anti-christ proclaim he is God from jerusalem?
he helps build it and then he set him self up as God in it.

the anti-christ is not one person, it is the "spirit of the anti-christ" - he is already at work, the spirit of the anti-christ is running all our gov'ts, schools, organizations. although it will get much, much worse when God doesn't hold it back anymore.

we are the temple now, it is US who is sacrificing ourselves, we carry the cross daily, we die to ourselves so He may live in us. it's not talking about a physical temple, it's a spiritual one, not made with hands. sorry i'll get the verses. it's all in Daniel and i don't have it all on the top of my head.
this is getting way off topic jason and this is a huge subject. lol

 

[archangel_300]

Also, in Heb 6, it says it would be impossible to RENEW them again to repentence. Why would he say they could not be RENEWED to repentence if they had never repented and accepted the Lord to start with?

Their hearts have become hardened to the truth after they received the knowledge of it.
They remain in unbelief. That's how I see that passage.

If you are saying that we can lose our salvation are you then saying that it is impossible for God to save that person again? What is the meaning of eternal life? It is life that never can end.
What can you do to fall away from God? If there is something you can do to fall away from God you are trying to attain heaven through your own works. Because on the flipside it also means that there must be something you need to do to "keep" your salvation and God says that this is impossible. Your treading a very fine line towards a works based gospel when the grace of God is a gift to us.

Think about it this way... what did Jesus do on the cross? Can you tell me?

 

[change]

2 Thessalonians 2:7 is not saying that the Holy Spirit will be taken away; it is saying the "man of sin" will be taken out of the way.

A person who is living in accordance with the will of God can decide not to follow God.
Remember it is free will. Many have turned away from the truth to follow their own hearts.

 

[jasoncran]

the anti-christ verses, in brief.
rev 19:20

one person in that verse

1 john 2:18

Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists;whereby we know that is the last name

this verse one of many that i have in my topical index talks of one anti-christ. though many are around, ie nero and some say hitler and antiochus ephines IV

no. that is poor translation, who is letting him rule for a while. it means that the lord will alow him to have his way then finish him

 

[jasoncran]

how i say it relates, if you say we can turn from the lord and fall away, and that we are going throug the trib. how is it that the enemy has so much power to perform miracles and slay.

does the enemy slay us like this now? no, we are persucted yes but not on a global extremely violent level.

what of the those that are faithful. do they loose their authority over the enemy?
think about it, we can bind him, yet in that time he bowls over us. is the holy spirit there allowing this?

so then if we can chooose to leave him , what of this? this falling away?
is this of the saints now or then? 2 john speaks of the false ones that arent from us, for it they were from us they would have STAYED with us. think about that.

that means that they were never part of us. odd if you have to be saved in order to reject it.
that is why i brought the end times things.

 

[glorydaz]

I believe salvation can be lost, yet I have every assurance. I am assured that God will not tempt me more than i am able to bear, I am assured that Jesus is able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him. I am assured that as long as I do not reject Christ and I am obedient to His voice (with the obvious caveat that we will fall sometimes) that I will spend eternity with Jesus in heaven. I believe you can lose your salvation, but I don't think it's easy to do. You basically have to reject Christ or go off into willfull sin and never repent before you die. That's it. God is full of grace and mercy.

But:

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye , shall he be thought worthy , who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified , an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said , Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense , saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

As you can see, these verses are talking about someone who has already been sanctified by the blood of Christ

This chapter is dealing with the two Covenants. The Jews were sanctified...set apart as a people of God. He is speaking to those Jews who were sanctified under the Old, but do not go on to become partakers of the New. He's speaking of those who have the knowledge of the truth, as the Jews had, but failed to enter into the Covenant of Grace because of unbelief.

And Moses went down from the mount unto the people, and sanctified the people; and they washed their clothes.

Those who partake of the "one offering" have been perfected for ever.

For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

There is no more sacrifice for sin through the Old Covenant priesthood, so the New Covenant sacrifice is the only route for mankind. Those who have heard the truth and continue in sin are those who do not partake of the New Covenant of grace, which is why Moses' law is referenced right after that verse. It points to the grace by which we enter in through faith.

It has a meaning for us as well, however, but our salvation is not what's at issue. Notice what comes just before the verses you quoted...Paul is encouraging the believers to hold fast to their profession of faith. He is warning those who have taken their salvation for granted that "The Lord shall judge His people". Paul is not saying they will lose their salvation, but they will be sorely chastened if they don't mend their ways. Judgment begins with the house of God. We all know that and should fear what God is able to do.

It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God, but He is a merciful Father...not condemning those who have been justified by the blood. Those who have been blood-bought are perfected FOREVER.

David said unto the LORD, I have sinned greatly in that I have done: and now, I beseech thee, O LORD, take away the iniquity of thy servant; for I have done very foolishly. For when David was up in the morning, the word of the LORD came unto the prophet Gad, David's seer, saying, Go and say unto David, Thus saith the LORD, I offer thee three things; choose thee one of them, that I may do it unto thee. So Gad came to David, and told him, and said unto him, Shall seven years of famine come unto thee in thy land? or wilt thou flee three months before thine enemies, while they pursue thee? or that there be three days' pestilence in thy land? now advise, and see what answer I shall return to him that sent me. And David said unto Gad, I am in a great strait: let us fall now into the hand of the LORD; for his mercies are great: and let me not fall into the hand of man.

 

[glorydaz]

i do believe we can lose our salvation.

Really? Do you believe YOU can lose your salvation or just other people?

It does sadden me when I hear someone doesn'tt have assurance of their own salvation.

Doesn't the Spirit within bear witness with yours? Hasn't God filled your heart with a desire to love and serve Him? Don't you abhor sin? Hasn't God taken away your heart of stone and given you a heart of flesh? Doesn't Jesus intercede on your behalf? Hasn't He always been faithful to answer your prayers and meet all your needs. Doesn't He chasten you when you go out of the way? Hasn't He promised to never leave nor forsake you? Without assurance, where is faith? Without trust in God's power to keep His own, where is faith?

yes, i pray that God will help me to abide in Christ and to conform to His image, yes, i am aware that i am not exempt, there is nothing special about me at all. lol i, too, could lose my salvation and that is why i pray. i am not better than anyone.
the Spirit does bear witness to me, He convicts me, teaches me, comforts me, gives me joy and peace. i pray my heart is the very heart of Jesus and that the flesh heart would die and Jesus would be alive and well in me. God will never forsake me, but i could fall away and that is why Jesus and Paul spent so much time, teaching us and speaking to us that we would stay the course, not be of this world, they spent alot of time warning us, directing us, guiding us because God gave us free will and we can chose to fall away. i can tell you, i would never want to be an apostate.

When a believer "falls away", he does not lose his salvation. He loses fellowship with God, he loses his testimony, he is chastened sorely until he returns, but it is the will of God that Jesus will lose none the Father has given Him. It's a question of whether God is able to keep us nor not. I say He is.