Can an unbeliever speak in tongues?

[Sparkey]

Obediah, let me offer apologies for putting you on the defensive, you're correct when you say that when people speak gibberish and later admit they were faking the gift of tongues, they can rightly be called fakers who spoke gibberish.

You notice that "none in this thread" have spoken up giving their witness to the Gift of Tongues being used according to Scripture. This argument from silence does little to prove your case. I have been in churches where when one speaks out, using the Gift of Tongues, the entire assembly becomes quite as they wait for the Gift of Interpretation. And yes, the Pastors in those Pentecostal assemblies support what Paul said and teach the same. As far as your conclusion that "faking" is more the norm or not, I doubt my single witness will persuade you, although that is what you asked for.

 

[Sparkey]

TND - you seem to think that the "Gift of Tongues" was given so that people could speak in earthly (normal) languages they didn't learn. For instance, so that I might be allowed to speak to a non-English speaking person without having to learn their language.

That is simply not my understanding of the Gift of Tongues -- it isn't given to the United Nations Assembly where interpretations are automatically delivered to non-English speakers over headphones.

That is not what Paul was talking about when he said that He spoke in tongues more than those he was writing to. Obediah's take on it makes more sense to me. Your belief is necessary for you to be able to say that Tongues have ceased, that's all.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

TND - you seem to think that the "Gift of Tongues" was given so that people could speak in earthly (normal) languages they didn't learn. For instance, so that I might be allowed to speak to a non-English speaking person without having to learn their language.

That is simply not my understanding of the Gift of Tongues -- it isn't given to the United Nations Assembly where interpretations are automatically delivered to non-English speakers over headphones.

That is not what Paul was talking about when he said that He spoke in tongues more than those he was writing to. Obediah's take on it makes more sense to me. Your belief is necessary for you to be able to say that Tongues have ceased, that's all.

Incorrect, Sparrow. Paul also warned about the "strange tongues" that are spoken in most churches encouraging the practice of speaking in tongues today. Rarely, if ever, does one hear a language that can be translated by anyone. Paul also said he would rather that someone speak five words with understanding than 10,000 which were not understood/interpreted. A language must be an Earthly language for it to be a valid "tongue" spoken in a church setting, otherwise anyone can claim to speak in tongues by uttering the very gibberish you and Obadiah state you reject.

<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:OfficeDocumentSettings> <o:AllowPNG/> </o:OfficeDocumentSettings> </xml><![endif]--> Tongue-talking today is nothing more than "worked-up" sensationalism. Leaders work people up into an emotional frenzy and before you know it, people left and right are speaking forth ecstatic babbling that brings no profit to anybody. Paul was dealing with this issue to bring order back into the church (1 Corinthians 14:40), and make sure that all things are being done in a way to edify the body. If there's no edifying, then it is a complete waste of time.

 

[Deborah13]

Now now, let's not be so defensive Deborah. We're just having a nice discussion here, not an argument. I haven't accused YOU of anything, have I? I certainly didn't mean too.

Paul said there should be interpretation. Why is there never interpretation? Are you saying it's not important to follow this scripture demanding interpretation just because he doesn't use the word "faking"?

I also am not referring to a person privately and quietly praying in tongues. I am referring to people who suddenly and loudly speak in gibberish that no one understands and no one interprets. That seems like it's pretty much against what Paul said, doesn't it?

As far as someone praying in Spanish, I think it's pretty clear that's not what we are referring to in this thread. If I know a person is an English speaker and has been all their lives, and I suddenly hear them speaking words neither I nor anyone else understands, it's pretty easy to assume they aren't suddenly speaking Spanish. Yes, I understand IF God chose to, He COULD give a person a miraculous ability to speak a human language that they didn't previously know in order to communicate the Gospel to someone who speaks only that language, but I don't think that's necessary in order for them to pray.

I have attended many different kinds of churches and am familiar with which kinds I can expect I might hear someone "speak in tongues". As with anything, if it is being done in an unscriptural way, the fact that I should expect that to happen doesn't justify it.

Read my post maybe. I was not defending anyone. I said that if people are using tongues in a way that is out of order their pastor needs to correct them. However, it does not mean they are faking (per Paul).

No defending or offending intended. ;)

 

[Deborah13]

Incorrect, Sparrow. Paul also warned about the "strange tongues" that are spoken in most churches encouraging the practice of speaking in tongues today. Rarely, if ever, does one hear a language that can be translated by anyone. Paul also said he would rather that someone speak five words with understanding than 10,000 which were not understood/interpreted. A language must be an Earthly language for it to be a valid "tongue" spoken in a church setting, otherwise anyone can claim to speak in tongues by uttering the very gibberish you and Obadiah state you reject.

Tongue-talking today is nothing more than "worked-up" sensationalism. Leaders work people up into an emotional frenzy and before you know it, people left and right are speaking forth ecstatic babbling that brings no profit to anybody. Paul was dealing with this issue to bring order back into the church (1 Corinthians 14:40), and make sure that all things are being done in a way to edify the body. If there's no edifying, then it is a complete waste of time.

What is the scripture you are speaking of where Paul warns about "strange tongues"? Thanks Deb

 

[Deborah13]

During my kindergarten or thereabout...kinda, a preacher came and said he'd teach us how to speak. He ordered us to speak. We all began speaking babbles. Terrific!!! We were very young and stupid....thinking we were speaking in tongues. (perhaps some truly spoke. Who knows).

Yike!! That would not be scriptural at all. Some people get carried away I think. That would be like forcing someone to accept the Lord by saying just pray this pray and you're saved without them having a spiritual drawing from the Holy Spirit or understanding what they were doing.

Save our children from some who intend well (I think) but .....

 

[Deborah13]

I would encourage anyone with interest on this topic to open their Bibles to 1 Corinthians 12. The gifts of the Spirit come from the Holy Spirit alone. The first three verses of 1 Corinthians 12 make it clear that the gifts of the Spirit will only be given to those who proclaim Christ as Lord. Another thing you will note is that in none of the passages regarding the Gifts of the Spirit is there any mention of any of these gifts passing away. Just because there are wolves among the flock claiming to have something they do not, this is no reason to believe the more miraculous gifts have passed away. Keep in mind that God does not change, so why would we are wise to recognize that the more miraculous sign gifts may just be more rare than they once were.

Excellant post!!

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

What is the scripture you are speaking of where Paul warns about "strange tongues"? Thanks Deb

I Corinthians 14 NASB
21 In the Law it is written, "BY MEN OF STRANGE TONGUES AND BY THE LIPS OF STRANGERS I WILL SPEAK TO THIS PEOPLE, AND EVEN SO THEY WILL NOT LISTEN TO ME," says the Lord.
22 So then tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophecy is for a sign, not to unbelievers but to those who believe.
23 Therefore if the whole church assembles together and all speak in tongues, and ungifted men or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are mad?
​

 

[Classik]

...........wrong posting (edited out)

 

[Deborah13]

I Corinthians 14 NASB
21 In the Law it is written, "BY MEN OF STRANGE TONGUES AND BY THE LIPS OF STRANGERS I WILL SPEAK TO THIS PEOPLE, AND EVEN SO THEY WILL NOT LISTEN TO ME," says the Lord.
22 So then tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophecy is for a sign, not to unbelievers but to those who believe.
23 Therefore if the whole church assembles together and all speak in tongues, and ungifted men or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are mad?
​

Sorry I just don't see how Paul is warning against "strange tongues" by quoting what God said about the Jews? and tongues and prophecy being a sign to them? Unless you are saying tongues without prophecy? that's what he is warning about, not strange tongues. Maybe I misunderstood your post, don't concern yourself with an answer.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

Sorry I just don't see how Paul is warning against "strange tongues" by quoting what God said about the Jews? and tongues and prophecy being a sign to them? Unless you are saying tongues without prophecy? that's what he is warning about, not strange tongues. Maybe I misunderstood your post, don't concern yourself with an answer.

Precisely! And those "strange tongues" have no prophecy within them, and the vast majority of what is passed off as "tongues" today is worthless, and the so-called "interpreters" are guessing at best. Mostly, they're faking it too.

 

[Sparkey]

Precisely! And those "strange tongues" have no prophecy within them, and the vast majority of what is passed off as "tongues" today is worthless, and the so-called "interpreters" are guessing at best. Mostly, they're faking it too.

That is not my experience. My friend once confided to me that she felt like she was supposed to give an interpretation but was shy to do so. She was able to confirm that the message another spoke was the same as what she was given to say. No, not word for word, but enough for her to say, "the same". She's a Christian (I know this) and didn't lie.

There are many sides to the conversation about our experience with God and it seems good to remember that the whole of it revolves around loving Him and our brothers and sisters. We are being drawn to unity and brotherhood by the Holy Spirit. I trust God to bring us to the place He has promised and look forward to the unity of the Spirit that is promised.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

That is not my experience. My friend once confided to me that she felt like she was supposed to give an interpretation but was shy to do so. She was able to confirm that the message another spoke was the same as what she was given to say. No, not word for word, but enough for her to say, "the same". She's a Christian (I know this) and didn't lie.

There are many sides to the conversation about our experience with God and it seems good to remember that the whole of it revolves around loving Him and our brothers and sisters. We are being drawn to unity and brotherhood by the Holy Spirit. I trust God to bring us to the place He has promised and look forward to the unity of the Spirit that is promised.

My bottom line, Sparrow, is that there are no tongues today. Many may sincerely believe they "speak in tongues" but it is largely emotionalism run amok. It has no place in today's church. It does not truly edify anyone, because it is rarely if ever practiced biblically.

 

[reba]

<dir>1Co 14:37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.
1Co 14:38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.
1Co 14:39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.
1Co 14:40 Let all things be done decently and in order.
</dir>

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

<dir>1Co 14:37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.
1Co 14:38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.
1Co 14:39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.
1Co 14:40 Let all things be done decently and in order.
</dir>

That was written in Paul's day, with him knowing (as evidenced by his writing in 1 Corinthians 13:8-13) that the gifts were dying out. He also said he would rather they would speak five sensible words as opposed to 10,000 in an unknown tongue.

 

[Sparkey]

You know, TND - I have no problem with your expression of belief. We are both in the same body of believers, bought and paid for by the blood of the Lamb.
I understand that you are convinced that tongues are not for today. You're not alone in that belief.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

You know, TND - I have no problem with your expression of belief. We are both in the same body of believers, bought and paid for by the blood of the Lamb.
I understand that you are convinced that tongues are not for today. You're not alone in that belief.

Nor do I have a problem with you expressing the belief that the gifts associated most closely with today's Pentecostal movement, especially tongues, are still valid. You are correct, we are of the same body, and an equal price was paid for us all by our Savior and Lord.

I don't mean to appear to argue directly with you or anyone else who believes these gifts are still valid. My only purpose has been to state biblical truth as it has been revealed to me. If, in doing so, I have offended any of you, I apologize and ask your forgiveness.

 

[reba]

That was written in Paul's day, with him knowing (as evidenced by his writing in 1 Corinthians 13:8-13) that the gifts were dying out. He also said he would rather they would speak five sensible words as opposed to 10,000 in an unknown tongue.

All of 'Pauls' letters were written about then so do we pick, and choose?


1Co 14:39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.

<dir>Co 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

<dir>1Co 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
1Co 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
</dir>


1Co_14:19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.


All the verses are Gods Word..one is not less then the other
</dir>

 

[Sparkey]

Nor do I have a problem with you expressing the belief that the gifts associated most closely with today's Pentecostal movement, especially tongues, are still valid. You are correct, we are of the same body, and an equal price was paid for us all by our Savior and Lord.

I don't mean to appear to argue directly with you or anyone else who believes these gifts are still valid. My only purpose has been to state biblical truth as it has been revealed to me. If, in doing so, I have offended any of you, I apologize and ask your forgiveness.

We are commanded to do so. To speak the truth in kindness. This does not mean that every one of us agrees or that any one of of knows all things. It's okay for each to have their own experience and to allow that (how can we help it) to assist us in understanding what the Word of Truth means. I feel that I was blessed to have some very good teachers in the Word when I was young, but they did make some mistakes in their teaching. It is my belief that the ultimate duty of teaching falls to God who brings us together so that we can learn more of Him.

How can I say this well? Okay, every person, although on the same path and headed to the same place, will have different experience.
Another thought: If we are living stones, will we all be the same color? Unity does not mean identical, but rather that we are cemented together by the same bond. It is the working of the Holy Spirit that binds us together and it is His Job to teach and to bring us into all truth. You don't need me to teach you and I appreciate the fact that you do listen to what Christians here have to say, knowing that they too are sharing what they hold true in love and kindness.

Somehow I see our Father looking over us and watching as we join together, pleased. I ramble on but there is no call for you to be forgiven by me and you have not offended me by being you.
I don't usually even try to express these kinds of things, they are rather hard to say, but it seemed good to do so here.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

All of 'Pauls' letters were written about then so do we pick, and choose?

No, we read them, study them and digest them. It is plain to me and to countless others that the gifts were dying out as Paul wrote 1 Corinthians 13, else he would not have written the passage as he did. God does not change, but He does change the way He relates His word to us. In the OT, it was by prophetic utterance, to be recorded by scribes later. In the 400 years of silence, He communicated through the judgment He brought upon Israel. In the New Testament, He phased out the prophetic utterance and phased in the written word, which is what Paul was saying in 1 Corinthians 13 -- the gifts no longer needed to confirm the message because the messengers confirmed it through their witness and changed lives. Today, it is the same. The utterances, the tongues, the knowledge all passed away in the first century. Paul said so.