Can an unbeliever speak in tongues?

[Sparkey]

I would agree with this. In fact, from some of the wonderful Christians that I have met, powerful prayer warriors if you will, are baptized in the Spirit and they don't even know it.

That's what I am trying here to address. Many believers have been taught that the label "Spirit Filled" applies only to a certain group of churches that identify themselves with Pentecost. This manner of labeling believers and segregating them into various groups traces back to thoughts stemming from the Azusa Street Revival (and other "revivals" from the start of the 20th century) and I don't like it because it smacks of elitism.

 

[Sparkey]

... as I've repeatedly pointed out, Paul indicated in 1 Corinthians 13 that that gift as well as prophecy and personal knowledge of God's word -- that is, new revelation given directly to the speaker -- was dying out even then.

Pardon me for seemingly ignoring the implication of your assertion and deductive conclusion(s). I didn't ignore it, but instead chose to not respond at that time. Others here have already responded. The reason that I chose not to is simply because I lack the expertise necessary to offer constructive criticism to your interpretation of the Greek verb tense used in 1Cor 13:8, 9 & 10. Frankly, I have never taken a formal class on Greek but have been able to grasp the fact that their verb tense is structured differently than ours.

May I suggest that you attempt to prove your point by showing that the Greek Verb Tense used by Paul in 1Cor 13:8-10 indicates something that began in the past, continues through today and that this from-the-past/through-the-present/and-continuing action will culminate sometime in the future? The way I read it is that we have seen and are seeing through a glass darkly (now and in the past), but when "the Perfect" is come we shall no longer see in that manner but instead will see "face to face" (in the future). This does not indicate that my sense of the continuing tense of the Greek was being used, but as I say, I am no expert.

 

[Deborah13]

ΠΡΟΣ ΚΟΡΙΝΘΙΟΥΣ Α΄ 13:10
SBL Greek New Testament (SBLGNT)
<sup class="versenum">10 </sup>ὅταν δὲ ἔλθῃ τὸ τέλειον, <sup class="footnote" value='[a]'>[a]</sup>τὸ ἐκ μέρους καταργηθήσεται.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/...s=G5046&t=NASB

Thayer's Lexicon states that the bolded words above mean this,
"the perfect state of all things, to be ushered in by the return of Christ from heaven, 1 Co. xiii. 10

Matthew Henry Commentary states this,
"When the end is once attained, the means will of course be abolished. There will be no need of tongues, and prophecy, and inspired knowledge, in a future life, because then the church will be in a state of perfection, complete both in knowledge and holiness."

The link above is to the Thayer's Lexicon provided by The Blue Letter Bible
The link below is to the Ashbury Commentary at the Bible Gateway site.
http://www.biblegateway.com/resource...-eternity-love

It appears to me that all three are in agreement as to 1 Corinth. 13:10

I would all suggestion reading on both in Henry and Ashbury, as to (face to face) with whom, our Lord.

Neither statement says or even implies that "the perfect" is Jesus. It is a time in the future when all things will be perfect because of Him. No one will need healing, prophecy, tongues, special wisdom, special knowledge....Because of Him being present. Everything will be done and perfect in His presence.

 

[Sparkey]

ΠΡΟΣ ΚΟΡΙΝΘΙΟΥΣ Α΄ 13:10
SBL Greek New Testament (SBLGNT)
<sup class="versenum">10 </sup>ὅταν δὲ ἔλθῃ τὸ τέλειον, <sup class="footnote" value='[a]'>[a]</sup>τὸ ἐκ μέρους καταργηθήσεται.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/...s=G5046&t=NASB

Thayer's Lexicon states that the bolded words above mean this,
"the perfect state of all things, to be ushered in by the return of Christ from heaven, 1 Co. xiii. 10

Matthew Henry Commentary states this,
"When the end is once attained, the means will of course be abolished. There will be no need of tongues, and prophecy, and inspired knowledge, in a future life, because then the church will be in a state of perfection, complete both in knowledge and holiness."

The link above is to the Thayer's Lexicon provided by The Blue Letter Bible
The link below is to the Ashbury Commentary at the Bible Gateway site.
http://www.biblegateway.com/resource...-eternity-love

It appears to me that all three are in agreement as to 1 Corinth. 13:10

I would all suggestion reading on both in Henry and Ashbury, as to (face to face) with whom, our Lord.

Neither statement says or even implies that "the perfect" is Jesus. It is a time in the future when all things will be perfect because of Him. No one will need healing, prophecy, tongues, special wisdom, special knowledge....Because of Him being present. Everything will be done and perfect in His presence.

I think the same about that. But it's still Greek to me. So I too look to the Blue Letter Online Bible for sources that are authoritative. I have several of the works you mention in hard copy (in the past they were called "books") as well, but it's just easier to search online.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

May I suggest that you attempt to prove your point by showing that the Greek Verb Tense used by Paul in 1Cor 13:8-10 indicates something that began in the past, continues through today and that this from-the-past/through-the-present/and-continuing action will culminate sometime in the future? The way I read it is that we have seen and are seeing through a glass darkly (now and in the past), but when "the Perfect" is come we shall no longer see in that manner but instead will see "face to face" (in the future). This does not indicate that my sense of the continuing tense of the Greek was being used, but as I say, I am no expert.

It has more to do with the understanding of the Greek subject "perfect" and its contrast with the implied "partial" in Paul's writings,

At issue is whether “perfect” is quantitative or qualitative. That is, whether “perfect” means a completing of what was incomplete, or whether “perfect” means a perfecting of what was imperfect. The word for “perfect,” teleios in the Greek, in 1 Corinthians 13:10 has a well-established meaning of “complete.” A form of the verb is used in John 19:30, and is translated "finished" in Christ's declaration from the cross as He gives up His spirit. Likewise, Paul never uses teleios to mean absolute perfection anywhere else in his writings, and particularly not here, as Paul does not write of the return of Christ, but our preparation -- becoming complete in Him -- before His return. The completion of the God’s revelation to the world through His written word, inspired through the apostles, fits Paul’s usage of teleios much better.

Understanding teleios in 1 Corinthians 13:10 as “complete” makes more sense than “perfect” because of the contrast with “partial.” The completed Scripture is the reason why the partial, or incomplete, prophecy and knowledge are done away, for they are no longer necessary. This is better than trying to contrast the perfection of Christ’s return with the imperfection of prophecy and knowledge. Prophecy is not imperfect, it is rather incomplete. This then consistently views both “in part” and “perfect” as quantitative, rather than “in part” as quantitative and “perfect” as qualitative.

In other words, since prophecy is not partly perfect, but rather part of a whole, it makes more sense to understand “perfect” as “complete.” We know in part before the completion of the New Testament (1 Corinthians 13:9) and with the completion of the canon the partial revelation of prophecy will be done away (1 Corinthians 13:10).

Also, 1 Corinthians 13:11 describes a development from childhood to maturity, which is not instantaneous but gradual. This does not fit the return of Christ. It rather fits the gradual reduction of prophecy as the New Testament was being written and the apostles and prophets passed on.

Verse 12 of 1 Corinthians 13 is why most interpret this passage as referring to the return of Christ. Phrases like “face to face” and “knowing fully” can make people jump to this conclusion. However, it is important to note that even if 1 Corinthians 13:12 is speaking about the return of Christ this does not undermine the view that tongues will end with the completion of God’s revelation with the apostolic age. The partial being done away does not need to mean that we then know fully (1 Corinthians 13:12). This final knowledge could be a separate occasion at the coming of Christ with 1 Corinthians 13:11 describing the increasing completeness of God’s revelation and 13:12 describing the absolute completeness at the return of Christ.

However the better explanation is to view 1 Corinthians 13:12 as teaching that with the completion of the biblical revelation, we will know ourselves fully, as we are fully known. The metaphor of the mirror, the Greek esopron, is used only in one other place in the New Testament, in James 1:23 where it refers to God’s revelation in the Bible. Plus, we look at ourselves in a mirror, not at God. Also, when the phrase “face to face” is used about God and man in the Bible, it normally means God’s revelation to man, not God’s fellowship with man. God’s complete revelation enables us to see ourselves as in a mirror face to face, completely, rather than as in a mirror dimly, partially. With God’s complete revelation, we are able to understand God’s view of us in a way not possible before. We must remember, His view of us is much more important than our own view of ourselves, because He knows us better than even we know ourselves.

Finally, this view explains the contrast of 1 Corinthians 13:13. In contrast to the three gifts which will not endure throughout the church age (prophecy, tongues and knowledge) are the three virtues which will endure throughout the age (faith, hope and love). This temporal understanding of the virtues is further affirmed when we learn that love is the greatest, in that it alone is permanent while faith and hope will be fulfilled when we see Christ face to face (cf. 2 Corinthians 5:6-8; Romans 8:24-25).

If prophecy and knowledge will be done away with the canon of Scripture complete, then it follows that the ceasing of tongues will occur also at that time since they are grouped together in verse eight. The significance of the terms “cease” for tongues and “done away” for knowledge and prophecy is in regard to the process of how the cessation will occur, not with regard to timing of when the cessation will occur. This minor distinction is due to the nature of tongues as validating sign of the messenger and message of God’s direct revelation. After God ends the revelation of knowledge and prophecy, the evidence affirming the revelation is no longer necessary and thus ceases to exist all by itself. The ceasing of tongues as taught in 1 Corinthians 13:8 is the natural result of the end of God’s special revelation in the age of the apostles.

Now, you may ask, why am I so adamant in my defense of Paul declaring those three particular gifts dead? Because the misunderstanding of tongues as taught biblically versus the method by which they are practiced today cause great schism and division in the church.

• The misunderstanding of the biblical gift of tongues has allowed the pagan religious practice of ecstatic utterances into the public and private worship of the true God.
• The misunderstanding of the biblical gift of tongues has greatly diminished the appreciation for the significance of the miraculous gift of tongues that God gave in the apostolic era.
• The misunderstanding of the biblical gift of tongues has resulted in a great confusion over the true meaning of tongues in the Bible.
• The misunderstanding of the biblical gift of tongues has caused a division in the universal church and in many local churches over this issue.
• The misunderstanding of the biblical gift of tongues has caused Christians who do not practice charismatic tongues speaking to be considered by charismatics as not being baptized with the Holy Spirit. The result of this is those believers in charismatic churches who are not practicing their ecstatic babbling are led to believe they do not have the power of the Holy Spirit.
• The misunderstanding of the biblical gift of tongues has caused churches that do not practice charismatic tongues speaking to be considered cold and lifeless.
• The misunderstanding of the biblical gift of tongues has hurt the ministry of prayer among those who in a misguided attempt to communicate with God are babbling.
• The misunderstanding of the biblical gift of tongues has encouraged an unhealthy mystical element of spirituality to exist within Christianity. This is a failed attempt to meet our spiritual hunger.
• The misunderstanding of the biblical gift of tongues has caused unbelievers to think just what Paul said they would think when they heard communication that no one understood...”you are mad!”

These problems should be significant enough to make us unapologetic in our loving opposition to the modern tongues movement.

 

[D2wing]

I think your reasoning is not what is meant by the scripture. The perfect is yet to come. Your interpretation is not supported by scripture. If you mean to say that genuine tongues have ceased and that I am possessed of evil spirits when speaking in tongues I assure you, you are not correct. If you ask for a loaf of bread, will God give you a stone?
When you speak of division, it is you Banghead calling other Christians of Satan is a tad divisive.

 

[D2wing]

I thank you Deborah and Sparrowhawke for your honest scholarly and Biblical posts. For years I have attended a Church that doesn't practice tongues. The former pastor knew about me and we discussed it. It was not a problem for either of us. This might be true in many churches. You might have someone that speaks in tongues seated next to you. I agree that there are many Christians I know that have a deep abiding faith in God and great love that never speak in tongues.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

I think your reasoning is not what is meant by the scripture.

I understand that. Because your upbringing and denominational instruction tells you otherwise. Mine tells me what I've posted is true.

The perfect is yet to come.

If you hold to your denominational viewpoint, that is what it tells you, yes. I don't expect to change your or anyone else's mind. You won't accept what I say about the subject. However, I do want others sitting on the fence, or wondering about the teaching, to see both sides of the question.

Your interpretation is not supported by scripture.

Actually, I just made a very long post indicating my Scriptural support. If you wish to reject it, that's your prerogative.

If you mean to say that genuine tongues have ceased and that I am possessed of evil spirits when speaking in tongues I assure you, you are not correct.

I didn't say the individual practiioners are "possessed" nor did I even say the churches that encourage or teach tongues are possessed. What I said was that the movement to encourage tongues may be drawing inspiration from other than heavenly influence.

If you ask for a loaf of bread, will God give you a stone?

Totally irrelevant to the discussion. The Sermon on the Mount passage from which you draw this analogy is not talking about receiving gifts form the Holy Spirit. It is talking about treating others as you would be treated. See Matthew 7:12.

When you speak of division, it is you Banghead calling other Christians of Satan is a tad divisive.

And that wasn't divisive, using my avatar to speak to me derogatorily? I see ...

 

[Sparkey]

TND - we can not "pick and choose" between Knowledge and Prophecy. Neither can we demand (by bare assertion) that "Knowledge" is limited to the Gift of Knowledge (as you seem want to do). At the time of Paul's writings, Christians were not seeing "face-to-face" but instead they were seeing "through a glass, darkly". I maintain that in our (yours and mine) time, this vision is still not yet perfected (or matured or completed if you'd rather) and so we still see as through a glass, darkly.

 

[Sparkey]

I think your reasoning is not what is meant by the scripture. The perfect is yet to come. Your interpretation is not supported by scripture. If you mean to say that genuine tongues have ceased and that I am possessed of evil spirits when speaking in tongues I assure you, you are not correct. If you ask for a loaf of bread, will God give you a stone?
When you speak of division, it is you Banghead calling other Christians of Satan is a tad divisive.

D2wing - we all need to curb over-the-top response. It is perfectly fine for my brother, TND to disagree with my brother D2wing. No matter where I place myself on the line of discussion between Christians, I will continue to reason that all have a right to give voice to such issues. No pointing of fingers or taking personal offence, please. By the way, this statement is simply me and not one from a moderator; I'll put on my mod-hat in a second and go see if any reports have been made, but since I am part of this discussion I feel obliged by my own conscience to not "moderate" here.

<Sparrow is relieved to find no reported posts from this thread. >
Thanks, guys.

 

[Agape]

1 Corinthians 13:8
Prophecies will fail (καταργηθήσονται) ==> Future indicative passive
Tongues will cease (παύσονται) ==> Future indicative middle
Knowledge will vanish away (καταργηθήσεται) ==> Future indicative passive

Prophecy will fail (passive voice) and knowledge will vanish away (passive voice) when the "perfect" comes (verse 10), but the gift of tongues "will cease" in and of itself (middle voice).

When the subject of the verb does action unto itself, or for its own benefit, the middle voice is used.
http://www.blueletterbible.org/help/greekverbs.cfm#voice

Paul used the "middle voice" for the end of the gift of tongues, thus indicating it will "cease" by itself, not as a direct result of "the perfect" coming. "The perfect" will do away with prophecy and knowledge.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

TND - we can not "pick and choose" between Knowledge and Prophecy. Neither can we demand (by bare assertion) that "Knowledge" is limited to the Gift of Knowledge (as you seem want to do). At the time of Paul's writings, Christians were not seeing "face-to-face" but instead they were seeing "through a glass, darkly". I maintain that in our (yours and mine) time, this vision is still not yet perfected (or matured or completed if you'd rather) and so we still see as through a glass, darkly.

All that's explained in my post, Sparrow. I said I don't expect to change any minds. You shouldn't expect that from me, either.

 

[Sparkey]

1 Corinthians 13:8
Prophecies will fail (καταργηθήσονται) ==> Future indicative passive
Tongues will cease (παύσονται) ==> Future indicative middle
Knowledge will vanish away (καταργηθήσεται) ==> Future indicative passive

Prophecy will fail (passive voice) and knowledge will vanish away (passive voice) when the "perfect" comes (verse 10), but the gift of tongues "will cease" in and of itself (middle voice).

When the subject of the verb does action unto itself, or for its own benefit, the middle voice is used.
http://www.blueletterbible.org/help/greekverbs.cfm#voice

Paul used the "middle voice" for the end of the gift of tongues, thus indicating it will "cease" by itself, not as a direct result of "the perfect" coming. "The perfect" will do away with prophecy and knowledge.

Thanks, Agape. I have read this on BLB before, and have discussed it with others (who know more about Greek than I). Have you seen Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament for 1 Corinthians 13? It does not deal directly with the subject of the cessation of the Gifts, but instead does what it sounds like - gives more complete "pictures" of the words and phrases used in the passage.

Many Christians consider the prose-poetry of 1 Cor 13 (the love chapter) to be their favorite part of the Bible.

 

[D2wing]

Is life in Christ some abstract thing that you can examine and put on a shelf? Does 1 Corintians 13 have application right now right here? This is more important than tongues. Do you think you should talk to God and listen to what he says about his word? I don't want to be on this forum, but God called, It's for you. God loves you and so do I. The tire is meeting the road right here right now. And it is not in the abstact.

 

[Obadiah]

Excellent reading the discussion of the Greek language and how it applies to this. Thanks. You guys make me want to sign up for a Greek class so I can learn more about it!

 

[Agape]

Thanks, Agape. I have read this on BLB before, and have discussed it with others (who know more about Greek than I). Have you seen Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament for 1 Corinthians 13? It does not deal directly with the subject of the cessation of the Gifts, but instead does what it sounds like - gives more complete "pictures" of the words and phrases used in the passage.

Many Christians consider the prose-poetry of 1 Cor 13 (the love chapter) to be their favorite part of the Bible.

No, I haven't but will take a look at the link you provided. Thanks! ;)

 

[cgl1023]

You ask: Can an unbeliever speak in tongues?

My my understanding is that the devil mimics tongues as a part of his deception program.