Can Eternal Life exist in the Second Death?

[n2thelight]

Sorry, Paul does not say that we have two bodies. Paul is not claiming that our bodies are not resurrected to life. Paul said that if the dead are not raised, then Jesus Christ also was not raised from death, and our faith is in vain. (1 Cor 15:12-28)
Ecclesiastes 12:7 says nothing about a "spirit body" going to God. And Ecclesiastes 9:5 certainly does not prove that the dead are alive in heaven, it says the opposite of that.

I'm sorry, but actual resurrection is necessary for eternal life.
Do you accept that Jesus Christ was physically resurrected, or was he resurrected in spirit only? Jesus Christ's resurrection is called the firstfruit of the resurrection. His resurrection is an example of the resurrection from death that we are promised in Scripture. Scripture doesn't promise that we can live forever as spirits or ghosts. Scripture promises that we can be resurrected and have actual eternal life.

The link below is what I feel scripture is teaching.........

http://www.whatthebiblesays.info/ResurrectionBody.html

Excerpt below

In ancient Egypt, Pharaohs drove their slaves to build huge pyramids to house their dead bodies. They filled these tombs with immense treasures of gold and all kinds of utensils that might be of service in their coming life. They cultivated the art of embalming, so that their bodies could be preserved for thousands of years with the least possible amount of decay. It's as if they thought that by taking such elaborate precautions, they could be prepared for the life to come. Apparently, they believed that their souls would one day return into those mummified bodies, and they wanted everything to be ready.

This is a stark contrast with the attitude expressed by Jesus. One of His disciples asked him, "Let me first go bury my father." Jesus said, "Follow me, and let the dead bury their dead" (Matthew 8:21-22, Luke 9:59-60). For Jesus, the dead body was of no consequence.

For Christians, the focus is not meant to be on the body that has died, but on the spirit that rises into the coming life. For two thousand years, Christians have been nourished by the hope that their loved ones who have died are happy in heaven with the Lord, not lying cold and dead in the ground. Nevertheless, some people believe that the resurrection will be a resurrection of the physical body that lies in the grave, and that when a person dies the soul remains unconscious for years or centuries until Christ comes again and brings all the bodies out of the grave and reawakens the souls that are sleeping within those bodies. Yet it is not only more comforting to picture a person rising immediately into the next life after death, but it is also more in keeping with the teachings of the Bible.

 

[FreeGrace]

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ;...
​

Since neither The Beast nor The False Prophet appear before the Judgment seat then they must not be one of the "all" Paul spoke of.

Seriously?? Paul was addressing believers, not all of mankind. And the "judgment seat" is the Bema, where ONLY believers will appear. Where they will receive their rewards, or not.

Which I take to mean all humanity (not just the Corinthians) must appear.

Why would you make such an assumption?

Therefore these two are not humans but demons. Which is what the LoF was prepared for. The Devil and his angels.

I gave you 2 verses to compare. Rev 20:10 and 15.

Only that it was prepared specifically for The Devil and his angels (demons) yet that when John refers to all the lost/resurrected humans that get sent there, he then says it's their Second Death.

Correct. What's the problem with that?

 

[TimothyW]

Col 2:13~~When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,

Eph 2:1~~And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,

Were you conscious before He made you alive?

No. And I will not be conscious after I am dead. I am conscious while I am alive, and when Jesus Christ resurrects me from the grave I will be alive and conscious again.
This is not rocket science. The dead are not conscious, surely you know this.

You have to understand the language of Colossians 2:13, "you were dead" refers to the certainty of death as a result of their transgressions, and "He made you alive" refers to the certainty of eternal life now that the Colossians trust in Christ.

 

[FreeGrace]

gr8grace3 said this:
Were you conscious before He made you alive?

No. And I will not be conscious after I am dead.

Maybe you misunderstood his question. He was speaking about your condition before you were regenerated. Before you believed. Were you unconscious before you believed in Christ?

I am conscious while I am alive, and when Jesus Christ resurrects me from the grave I will be alive and conscious again.

But you told gr8grace3 that you were unconscious before you believed.

Maybe the better question is: were you physically alive before you believed?

This is not rocket science. The dead are not conscious, surely you know this.

How do you know that? Both Lazarus and the rich man physically died, and Jesus shared a conversation between the rich man and Abraham in the afterlife, Abraham and Lazarus in Paradise and the rich man in "torments". Were they conscious or unconscious?

You have to understand the language of Colossians 2:13, "you were dead" refers to the certainty of death as a result of their transgressions, and "He made you alive" refers to the certainty of eternal life now that the Colossians trust in Christ.

No, "you were dead" refers to spiritual death, being separated from God.

 

[TimothyW]

gr8grace3 said this:
Were you conscious before He made you alive?

Maybe you misunderstood his question. He was speaking about your condition before you were regenerated. Before you believed. Were you unconscious before you believed in Christ?

OIC. I was not unconscious before I believed in Christ. And I was not dead either. I was suicidal, and as good as dead without Christ. In a metaphorical sense, I was "dead", however I was not literally dead before believing, and neither were you.

But you told gr8grace3 that you were unconscious before you believed.

No. I told gr8grace, that I was unconscious before God made me alive. God knit me together in my mother's womb. (Psalm 139:13) That is when He made me alive. I was not conscious before that. Were you?

Maybe the better question is: were you physically alive before you believed?

Maybe that is a better question. Yes, I was physically alive before I believed.

How do you know that? Both Lazarus and the rich man physically died, and Jesus shared a conversation between the rich man and Abraham in the afterlife, Abraham and Lazarus in Paradise and the rich man in "torments". Were they conscious or unconscious?

How do I know that dead people are not conscious? Is that the question?
Were the characters in the parable Jesus told conscious or not conscious? Is that the second question?

I know that dead people are not conscious, because I have seen dead people, and none of them has been conscious.
I can't answer whether characters in a parable are conscious or not conscious. Is Mickey Mouse conscious or not conscious? Is Paul Bunyan alive or dead?

No, "you were dead" refers to spiritual death, being separated from God.

Actually, the Bible does not say that.

 

[chessman]

Correct. What's the problem with that?

There is no problem with Rev 20:10 or 15 or any other Scripture. They all harmonize, in my opinion. Including the ones that say only believers have the gift of Eternal Life. the rest of humanity are destined for the Second Death of both their body and their soul in Hell (LoF). The reason Rev 20:15 is critical to harmonize with verse 20 and 2Cor 5:10 is that 20:15 is the only verse in the whole Bible that even implies ECT. And it's not referring to lost humanity but rather The Devil and his angels. Some people say that's wrong yet don't support their claims with good Biblical data or logic.
Until someone does, I think 20:15 applies to The Devil and his demons where as v20 applies to the lost humans.

Seriously?? Paul was addressing believers, not all of mankind. And the "judgment seat" is the Bema, where ONLY believers will appear. Where they will receive their rewards, or not.


Why would you make such an assumption?

The verse doesn't say Bema Seat or GWT Judgement seat. Merely that all will be judged. I understand believers get judged at the Beam Seat and non-believers get judged at the GWT Judgment seat. But my point is that The Beast and The False Prophet get judged at neither. Therefore, they are sent to the LoF without the judgment of either. They are demons, not humans.

 

[JLB]

No. And I will not be conscious after I am dead. I am conscious while I am alive, and when Jesus Christ resurrects me from the grave I will be alive and conscious again.
This is not rocket science. The dead are not conscious, surely you know this.

You have to understand the language of Colossians 2:13, "you were dead" refers to the certainty of death as a result of their transgressions, and "He made you alive" refers to the certainty of eternal life now that the Colossians trust in Christ.

Your dead body will not be conscious, but you, that is to say your inner man, will be conscience.

1 Now after six days Jesus took Peter, James, and John his brother, led them up on a high mountain by themselves; 2 and He was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and His clothes became as white as the light. 3 And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him. 4 Then Peter answered and said to Jesus, "Lord, it is good for us to be here; if You wish, let us make here three tabernacles: one for You, one for Moses, and one for Elijah." Matthew 17:1-4


Moses and Elijah were tangibly there with Jesus and Peter.


22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.' 25 But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. Luke 16:22-24


The rich man and Lazarus and both died and were buried.

Their body was in the ground, yet they, there spirit man was aware and continued to function, and speak and remember.


The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. Revelation 20:10


The angelic and human beings in the lake of fire continue to exist and are tormented, even without a body.



1 For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, 3 if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked. 4 For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life. 5 Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee. 6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. 7 For we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord. 2 Corinthians 5:1-8


... to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.


Though the physical body is dead, the spirit man or inner man continues on in a conscience state of existence.


There is no such thing as soul sleep.

51 Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, 52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many. Matthew 27:51-53


It is the human body that "sleeps" in the dust, not the soul.


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

OIC. I was not unconscious before I believed in Christ.

OK. But you indicated that you were before you were "made alive".

And I was not dead either.

Actually, all unbelievers are "dead in sins", per Eph 2:1. Not physically, but spiritually. Do you know what "spiritual death" means?

I was suicidal, and as good as dead without Christ. In a metaphorical sense, I was "dead", however I was not literally dead before believing, and neither were you.

OK, you don't understand the meaning of "spiritual death".

No. I told gr8grace, that I was unconscious before God made me alive.

But you weren't. Maybe you don't understand the meaning of "unconscious" either.

God knit me together in my mother's womb. (Psalm 139:13) That is when He made me alive. I was not conscious before that. Were you?

OK, it's "made alive" that you don't understand. gr8grace3 was speaking of regeneration, not physical birth.

How do I know that dead people are not conscious? Is that the question?
Were the characters in the parable Jesus told conscious or not conscious? Is that the second question?

First, that was no parable. Parables are generic stories, without names. Jesus specifically names 2 people who lived and died. Second, it is clear from Jesus' story that all 3 were conscious, even though all 3 had died physically.

I know that dead people are not conscious, because I have seen dead people, and none of them has been conscious.

Why would you think that a dead body is what was ever conscious?? It's the soul, the heart, the mind that is conscious.

Not the body.

I can't answer whether characters in a parable are conscious or not conscious. Is Mickey Mouse conscious or not conscious? Is Paul Bunyan alive or dead?

Not talking about a parable, but about a story of an actual encounter in the afterlife between a rich man and Abraham. Both of whom had lived, and died physically, and were residing in a specific place in the afterlife.

Actually, the Bible does not say that.

Please explain Eph 2:1, then. What did Paul mean and what was he referring to by "dead in your sins"?

 

[FreeGrace]

There is no problem with Rev 20:10 or 15 or any other Scripture. They all harmonize, in my opinion.

Of course they do. I've never suggested otherwise.

Including the ones that say only believers have the gift of Eternal Life. the rest of humanity are destined for the Second Death of both their body and their soul in Hell (LoF). The reason Rev 20:15 is critical to harmonize with verse 20 and 2Cor 5:10 is that 20:15 is the only verse in the whole Bible that even implies ECT.

Please remind me what ECT means. And Rev 20:15 implies nothing. It is crystal clear about who will be cast into the LoF. All humans who don't have eternal life.

And it's not referring to lost humanity but rather The Devil and his angels.

Wrong. Neither the devil nor his angels are mentioned in the context of the GTW judgment of Rev 20:11-15. It's about people, not angels. And they are going to be cast into the same LoF that the devil and his angels are cast.

Some people say that's wrong yet don't support their claims with good Biblical data or logic.
Until someone does, I think 20:15 applies to The Devil and his demons where as v20 applies to the lost humans.

There is no v.20 in Rev 20. It is v.10 that indicates that the antichrist and false prophet were cast into the LoF. v.15 is the rest of unbelieving humanity.

The verse doesn't say Bema Seat or GWT Judgement seat. Merely that all will be judged.

Quite wrong. The Greek word for "judgment seat of Christ" is Bema, per 2 Cor 5:10. Only believers will appear at that judgment. The GWT judgment is for unbelievers only. Those who don't have eternal life.

I understand believers get judged at the Beam Seat and non-believers get judged at the GWT Judgment seat. But my point is that The Beast and The False Prophet get judged at neither.

Not my point either.

Therefore, they are sent to the LoF without the judgment of either. They are demons, not humans.

What's your point? Since God created the LoF for the devil and his angels, it should be obvious that they have already been judged, but just haven't had their judgment applied yet.

It is equally as clear that Rev 20:10 and 15 indicate that humans will BE cast into the same LoF.

 

[TimothyW]

OK. But you indicated that you were before you were "made alive".

No, I said that I was NOT conscious before I was made alive.

Actually, all unbelievers are "dead in sins", per Eph 2:1. Not physically, but spiritually. Do you know what "spiritual death" means?

The Bible never, not even one time, refers to what you call "spiritual death". The term "spiritual death" never occurs in the Bible.

OK, you don't understand the meaning of "spiritual death".

Sure I do. "Spiritual Death" is concept invented by those who believe in eternal conscious torment. It is not found in the Bible, but often repeated in the pulpit.

But you weren't. Maybe you don't understand the meaning of "unconscious" either.

I understand the meaning of "unconscious". It means "NOT conscious". Does "unconscious" mean something different to you?

OK, it's "made alive" that you don't understand. gr8grace3 was speaking of regeneration, not physical birth.

You keep on assuming that I don't understand anything, when I actually do. It seems very inconsiderate of you to assume that I have no understanding.
I do understand "made alive in Christ". It means to receive the gift of eternal life in Christ.

First, that was no parable. Parables are generic stories, without names. Jesus specifically names 2 people who lived and died. Second, it is clear from Jesus' story that all 3 were conscious, even though all 3 had died physically.

First, you don't understand (and how do you like it?) that there is no rule anywhere that a parable cannot use a name. If all you have for "proof" that the dead are alive and tortured alive forever in hell while they are dead is one parable in Luke, then your doctrine has real problems. Secondly, the parable isn't even talking about the final end of the wicked, or "Hell". In the parable, the rich man's brothers were still alive, so how could this be the final punishment? And this parable says "Hades", not Hell. And this parable never says that the torment is eternal.

Why would you think that a dead body is what was ever conscious?? It's the soul, the heart, the mind that is conscious.

Not the body.

So you claim, without any proof whatsoever. I also didn't say that a dead body was never conscious. While the person was alive, they were conscious. While they are dead they are not. But don't just take my word for it. At your next Doctor Appointment, ask your doctor if dead people are conscious or not conscious.

Not talking about a parable, but about a story of an actual encounter in the afterlife between a rich man and Abraham. Both of whom had lived, and died physically, and were residing in a specific place in the afterlife.

Your claim, which is unproven. The parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man is indeed a parable.

Please explain Eph 2:1, then. What did Paul mean and what was he referring to by "dead in your sins"?

I'll gladly explain Ephesians 2:1.
Paul was saying that they did not have eternal life in Christ. Remember that Paul wrote "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord"?
Since the Ephesians were still in their sins before they were in Christ, they still owed the penalty for their sins, which is death. Without Christ, their deaths were certain, so they were dead in their sins, even though they were temporarily alive. But in Christ, they are made permanently alive. The gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Those who reject Jesus Christ do not receive the gift of eternal life.

 

[chessman]

What's your point?

They are demons, not humans.

in Rev 20:10

Yes, I had a typo in my post, corrected in red in the following following:

The reason Rev 20:15 is critical to harmonize with verse 20:10 and 2Cor 5:10 is that 20:10 is the only verse in the whole Bible that even implies ECT.

Please remind me what ECT means.

Eternal Conscious Torment(or torture).

And Rev 20:15 implies nothing. It is crystal clear about who will be cast into the LoF. All humans who don't have eternal life.

I know. That's my observation too. Which means those in 20:10 are not humans since they have already been imprisoned there forever without being judged at the GWT judgment seat (Bematos in the Greek).

Quite wrong. The Greek word for "judgment seat of Christ" is Bema,

Actually you are quite wrong. Judgment seat = Bematos
Paul says bematos of Christ to clarify that it's Christ's bematos that he means.
View attachment 5043

 

[FreeGrace]

No, I said that I was NOT conscious before I was made alive.

The term "made alive" is a Biblical term for regeneration. Eph 2:5, to be exact. gr8grace3 wasn't referring to your physical birth.

The Bible never, not even one time, refers to what you call "spiritual death". The term "spiritual death" never occurs in the Bible.

Everyone is free to have their own opinions, but James defined physical death as soul separate from the body in James 2:26. There is no reason at all not to understand Paul's words in Eph 2:1 as being separated from God because of our sin.

Further, how would one understand Paul's words in 1 Tim 5:6? "But she who gives herself to wanton pleasure is dead even while she lives." NASB Was Paul being contradictory? Or schizophrenic? No one can be physically dead and alive at the same time. It is obvious that he wasn't thinking of physical death here. Or Heb 11:12? Did the author actually mean that Abraham was physically dead before he sired Jacob??

Sure I do. "Spiritual Death" is concept invented by those who believe in eternal conscious torment. It is not found in the Bible, but often repeated in the pulpit.

Both are found in Scripture.

You keep on assuming that I don't understand anything, when I actually do. It seems very inconsiderate of you to assume that I have no understanding.

If you do, please answer my questions. Your comments suggest to me that you don't understand certain words/concepts. A simple answer goes a long way to identify what you do know. Thanks.

I do understand "made alive in Christ". It means to receive the gift of eternal life in Christ.

Which was gr8grace3's question about being conscious before you were made alive.

First, you don't understand (and how do you like it?) that there is no rule anywhere that a parable cannot use a name.

I never said there was a 'rule'. But just study the parables. None include names. But Jesus specifically named people that had lived, and then died, including Abraham. But if you want to consider him just a parable, ok.

If all you have for "proof" that the dead are alive and tortured alive forever in hell while they are dead is one parable in Luke, then your doctrine has real problems.

I never claimed those in the LoF are "alive". They are in conscious torment, which is supported clearly in Scripture.

Secondly, the parable isn't even talking about the final end of the wicked, or "Hell". In the parable, the rich man's brothers were still alive, so how could this be the final punishment? And this parable says "Hades", not Hell. And this parable never says that the torment is eternal.

I never said anything about "final punishment" either. I was proving that those who have physically died are still conscious.

So you claim, without any proof whatsoever. I also didn't say that a dead body was never conscious. While the person was alive, they were conscious. While they are dead they are not.

Jesus refutes your view given the story of Lazarus and the rich man. Bodies, whether physically alive or dead, are NEVER said to be conscious or unconscious. That activity, or lack thereof, is reserved for the mind.

Your claim, which is unproven. The parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man is indeed a parable.

So, your claim is "proof"??

I'll gladly explain Ephesians 2:1.
Paul was saying that they did not have eternal life in Christ. Remember that Paul wrote "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord"?
Since the Ephesians were still in their sins before they were in Christ, they still owed the penalty for their sins, which is death. Without Christ, their deaths were certain, so they were dead in their sins, even though they were temporarily alive. But in Christ, they are made permanently alive. The gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Those who reject Jesus Christ do not receive the gift of eternal life.

Including Rom 6:23 in your analysis demonstrates that before one believes in Christ, they are "dead". How so? Surely not physically.

So what kind of death was Paul referring to?

 

[FreeGrace]

Eternal Conscious Torment(or torture).
I know. That's my observation too. Which means those in 20:10 are not humans since they have already been imprisoned there forever without being judged at the GWT judgment seat (Bematos in the Greek).

How could any creature be "imprisoned there forever"?? The text and context is clear as to when they are imprisoned there. And there is nothing to suggest or even hint at that they are not human. In fact, throughout Revelation, the "beast" and false prophet" are human beings, one being the actual antichrist, and the other being the religious leader who forces the world to worship the beast, or antichrist. It's all quite clear.

Actually you are quite wrong. Judgment seat = Bematos
Paul says bematos of Christ to clarify that it's Christ's bematos that he means.

So, how is "bematos" so different than "bema"? In the Greek, all words have different spellings, based on a variety of things. They're the same thing.

 

[chessman]

And there is nothing to suggest or even hint at that they are not human.

'nothing' other than they:

1. Miss out on the GWT Judgment. (Rev 20:10-11)

2. Are on Earth, sent to the Abyss, Come back up from the Abyss to Earth (not born) then sent back to the destruction (LoF).

3. Are specifically said to be Demon spirits.

4. Are sent to the place prepared for The Devil and his angels for imprisonment.

5. Etc. (there's more evidence they are not human. The only evidence they are is people think they are.)

Revelation 16:14 Revelation 17:8 Revelation 19:20 The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is going to come up from the abyss, and he is going to destruction. [2] And those who live on the earth, whose names are not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will be astonished when they see the beast that was, and is not, and will be present. For they are the spirits of demons [3] performing signs that go out to the kings of the whole inhabited world, to gather them for the battle of the great day of God the All-Powerful. And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs before him, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who had worshiped his image. The two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulphur. ​

So, how is "bematos" so different than "bema"? In the Greek, all words have different spellings, based on a variety of things. They're the same thing.

It's not different other than it's cognates. The point is bema (or bematos, take your pick) simply means judgment seat. Pilate, Herod, etc. all had bematos.

My point is The Beast and The False Prophet see neither Judgment Seat of Christ. (GWTJ or The Bema Seat of believers).

 

[FreeGrace]

'nothing' other than they:

1. Miss out on the GWT Judgment. (Rev 20:10-11)

2. Are on Earth, sent to the Abyss, Come back up from the Abyss to Earth (not born) then sent back to the destruction (LoF).

3. Are specifically said to be Demon spirits.

4. Are sent to the place prepared for The Devil and his angels for imprisonment.

5. Etc. (there's more evidence they are not human. The only evidence they are is people think they are.)

All this is quite fanciful. What proof from the text for #2, 3, and 5?

My point is The Beast and The False Prophet see neither Judgment Seat of Christ. (GWTJ or The Bema Seat of believers).

What does that prove?

 

[chessman]

My point is The Beast and The False Prophet see neither Judgment Seat of Christ. (GWTJ or The Bema Seat of believers).

What does that prove?

That they are not humans.

Hebrews 9:27 And just as it is destined for people to die once, and after this, judgment,
​

Them missing out on the Judgment means:
1. They are not human people
Or
2. Heb 9:27 is inaccurate

Take your pick.

 

[TimothyW]

The term "made alive" is a Biblical term for regeneration. Eph 2:5, to be exact. gr8grace3 wasn't referring to your physical birth.


Everyone is free to have their own opinions, but James defined physical death as soul separate from the body in James 2:26. There is no reason at all not to understand Paul's words in Eph 2:1 as being separated from God because of our sin.

Further, how would one understand Paul's words in 1 Tim 5:6? "But she who gives herself to wanton pleasure is dead even while she lives." NASB Was Paul being contradictory? Or schizophrenic? No one can be physically dead and alive at the same time. It is obvious that he wasn't thinking of physical death here. Or Heb 11:12? Did the author actually mean that Abraham was physically dead before he sired Jacob??


Both are found in Scripture.


If you do, please answer my questions. Your comments suggest to me that you don't understand certain words/concepts. A simple answer goes a long way to identify what you do know. Thanks.


Which was gr8grace3's question about being conscious before you were made alive.


I never said there was a 'rule'. But just study the parables. None include names. But Jesus specifically named people that had lived, and then died, including Abraham. But if you want to consider him just a parable, ok.


I never claimed those in the LoF are "alive". They are in conscious torment, which is supported clearly in Scripture.


I never said anything about "final punishment" either. I was proving that those who have physically died are still conscious.


Jesus refutes your view given the story of Lazarus and the rich man. Bodies, whether physically alive or dead, are NEVER said to be conscious or unconscious. That activity, or lack thereof, is reserved for the mind.


So, your claim is "proof"??


Including Rom 6:23 in your analysis demonstrates that before one believes in Christ, they are "dead". How so? Surely not physically.

So what kind of death was Paul referring to?

You don't understand Bible concepts or the use of language.

You have not proven that dead people really are alive and not dead. You are bending the language to reach the conclusion that you want to reach.
If I say "That chick is a real elephant", I do not mean that an actual baby bird is truly a two ton mammal with a large nose.

 

[FreeGrace]

That they are not humans.

Yes, they are. The antichrist is a human being, as well as his false prophet. The Bible is very clear about that.

Hebrews 9:27 And just as it is destined for people to die once, and after this, judgment,
​

Them missing out on the Judgment means:
1. They are not human people
Or
2. Heb 9:27 is inaccurate

Take your pick.

I always pick the truth. And this is the truth: Rev 19:20 is the administration of the judgment that ALL other unbelievers receive in Rev 20:15. The simple fact that they "get theirs" before the rest of humanity is irrelevant.

They ARE human, and they DID receive the Judgment. So your 2 "picks" are inaccurate.

No one misses out on the Judgement. Rev 19:20 proves that.

 

[FreeGrace]

You don't understand Bible concepts or the use of language.

I'm interested in truth, not opinions.

You have not proven that dead people really are alive and not dead.

Gee. You know why? Because I've NEVER said that dead people are really alive. How silly! I've noted the distinction between physical bodies and souls, which you seem to not have understood. A physical body is either alive or dead. Right? A soul, however, was created to exist forever. Either with God, or separate from God. Right? If you disagree with either of these 2 questions, then there simply is no reason to continue this discussion.

A dead person occurs when the soul leaves the body, right? James 2:26 says so. I hope you agree. So, even though the body is dead, the soul continues to be conscious.

Proof? Paul said so.

2 Cor 5:8
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Do you think Paul meant to "be present" but Unconscious with the Lord???? No. He meant to be conscious with the Lord. And to be "absent from the body" is a reference to the soul having left the body, which is physical death.

You are bending the language to reach the conclusion that you want to reach.

Nonsense. Just please answer my questions regarding the statements I've made here so I can determine whether or not to continue this discussion with you. If you don't understand or agree with these statements will demonstrate that you do not grasp the meaning of words.

If I say "That chick is a real elephant", I do not mean that an actual baby bird is truly a two ton mammal with a large nose.

Irrelevant and silly analogy. James defined physical death, and Paul did so also.

When a person dies physically, their soul continues to be conscious. But the Bible never describes that condition as being "alive". Especially when that soul is "cast into the LoF", which the Bible also calls the "second death".

iow, the conscious soul will exist in the condition of eternal torment (Matt 25:41) in death.

I've proven my point with Scripture. So far, all I've seen from your posts are opinions.

If one can refute my understanding of the Scripture I have provided, feel free.

 

[TimothyW]

I'm interested in truth, not opinions.

You don't seem to be interested in truth. You seem to be interested in defending your beliefs.