Can Eternal Life exist in the Second Death?

[Drew]

I politely raise the possibility that some read "spiritual" as "non-material" or "non-physical". That is not what the New Testament teaches.

Let's look at this from 1 Corinthians 15:

With what kind of body will they come?" 36How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 38But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. 39All flesh is not the same: Men have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another. 40There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. 41The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.

Note that Paul is distinguishing between different kinds of physicality here - he is not drawing any kind of distinction between "physical" and "non-physical.

Let's continue:

So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.

Now let's be clear here. Paul would be quite incompetent to give a long story distinguishing one type of physicality from another kind of physicality, and then to draw to a conclusion that was about an entirely different kind of distinction - between the physical and the non-physical.

When Paul refers to a "spiritual" body here, he is referring to a physical body. In our culture, the term "spiritual" has a strong implication of "non-physicality". But this is not the way the Jew thought, and is clearly not the way Paul is thinking here.

There is a HUGE problem here: we in the western world largely are living from the legacy of Greek thinking - thinking that indeed split reality into "material" and "immaterial". That is not a Hebrew way of thinking. And Paul teaches from a specifically Jewish worldview.

 

[n2thelight]

In 1 Corinthians Paul writes about how we will all be given resurrection bodies just like the one Jesus had.

And Jesus certainly had a "physical" body after his resurrection - he had arms, legs, etc. He ate and walked around. Yes, His body had new properties but it certainly was physical in the sense that we normally ascribe to that term.

Are you familiar with the Apostle's Creed" Here is one version; note the material that I have rendered in bold:

I believe in God, the Father Almighty,
Maker of heaven and earth.
And in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord,
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,
born of the virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died and was buried.
He descended into hell.
On the third day He rose again from the dead.
He ascended into heaven
and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty.
From thence He will come to judge the living and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy Christian Church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting. Amen.[31]
Do you require more Biblical evidence that the redeemed will ultimately be given resurrection bodies?

We won't be given a body,we already have one,ie,the soul.......Right now we have two in one,the flesh shall return to dust at death,and the spirit will step out.........The bodies(flesh)that we have now,will never,ever be needed again..........

 

[n2thelight]

I politely raise the possibility that some read "spiritual" as "non-material" or "non-physical". That is not what the New Testament teaches.

Let's look at this from 1 Corinthians 15:

With what kind of body will they come?" 36How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 38But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. 39All flesh is not the same: Men have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another. 40There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. 41The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.

Note that Paul is distinguishing between different kinds of physicality here - he is not drawing any kind of distinction between "physical" and "non-physical.

Let's continue:

So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.

Now let's be clear here. Paul would be quite incompetent to give a long story distinguishing one type of physicality from another kind of physicality, and then to draw to a conclusion that was about an entirely different kind of distinction - between the physical and the non-physical.

When Paul refers to a "spiritual" body here, he is referring to a physical body. In our culture, the term "spiritual" has a strong implication of "non-physicality". But this is not the way the Jew thought, and is clearly not the way Paul is thinking here.

There is a HUGE problem here: we in the western world largely are living from the legacy of Greek thinking - thinking that indeed split reality into "material" and "immaterial". That is not a Hebrew way of thinking. And Paul teaches from a specifically Jewish worldview.

Amen

 

[TimothyW]

We won't be given a body,we already have one,ie,the soul.......Right now we have two in one,the flesh shall return to dust at death,and the spirit will step out.........The bodies(flesh)that we have now,will never,ever be needed again..........

This is not what the Bible teaches.

 

[JLB]

Right. And eternal damnation is NOT life. It is an existence, but is death. Eternal death. Eternal separation from God.

I would agree with you that "life" and "existence" are different, as the story of the rich man and Lazarus point out.


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

I would agree with you that "life" and "existence" are different, as the story of the rich man and Lazarus point out.


JLB

 

[n2thelight]

This is not what the Bible teaches.

Its exactly what scripture teaches,let's read what Paul says

I Corinthians 15:35 "But some man will say, "How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?"

I Corinthians 15:36 "Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:"

It is important to understand the word "quickened", Remember in verse 22 Paul stated; "in Adam all die, so in Christ shall all be made alive." This Greek word for "quickened" is the same Greek word for the "coming alive". It means that all, sinners and saints are made alive through Christ. It doesn't mean that the soul is raised to eternal life, for the soul is not the subject here, but the question is what happens to the physical body?
It means to "revitalize" [# 2227 in Strong's] the soul, and become conscience and ready for judgment. This doesn't mean that all souls are saved, but that all souls are given life to continue as they were. If that soul was lost, it will still be lost, but the final death will not take place until after this age of the flesh is over, after the Millennium age, and the Great white throne judgment is finish. Then will be the time of the "second death" or the death of the lost souls. It means that the soul has put off the flesh body, and put on their spiritual body, but their soul is still condemned to death if it is not in right standing with God.

I Corinthians 15:44 "It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body."

There is a natural body, which is your flesh body, and there is also a spiritual or soul body. The two are different and when the natural body, or flesh body dies the spiritual body is "raised", or in the Greek text "egiro, awakened, become active from its death". You have two bodies, one natural body contains your spiritual body, and that spiritual body is awakened to a new life, when the flesh or natural body dies and releases your soul. Your spirit and your soul are together, for the spirit is your "self", "the intellect of your soul" which houses your spirit within you.

It just can't be made any clearer than Paul has made it here. You have two bodies, the flesh and the spiritual bodies. When the flesh body dies, then the spiritual body is awakened and come alive within itself. It starts to live a life without the baggage of the flesh body confining it to the limits of the flesh.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 "Then [at death] shall the dust [flesh body] return to the earth as it was: and the spirit [spiritual body] shall return [instantly] to God [Father] Who gave it."

Ecclesiastes 9:5 "For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten."

This is written by Solomon to the flesh man that walks under the sun, and when the life of the flesh is over, it has no more knowledge or thought than a stick or rock. It is useless, but the soul that is within it is gone and with the Father.

 

[n2thelight]

I would agree with you that "life" and "existence" are different, as the story of the rich man and Lazarus point out.


JLB

Can't be different,if you exist you have life,might not be a good one but you still have it......

 

[JLB]

Can't be different,if you exist you have life,might not be a good one but you still have it......

22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.'
Luke 16:22-24


God is the God of the living and not the dead.

God is the God of those who have life...

God is not the God of those who have death...


6 Moreover He said, "I am the God of your father--the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob." And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God. Exodus 3:6


The rich man existed in a state of death, and continued in this stated while being tormented.

I will agree that angels and humans are eternal beings and will continue in one place or another.

One will continue in life and one will continue in death.


JLB

 

[n2thelight]

22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.'
Luke 16:22-24


God is the God of the living and not the dead.

God is the God of those who have life...

God is not the God of those who have death...


6 Moreover He said, "I am the God of your father--the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob." And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God. Exodus 3:6


The rich man existed in a state of death, and continued in this stated while being tormented.

I will agree that angels and humans are eternal beings and will continue in one place or another.

One will continue in life and one will continue in death.


JLB

The Richman has not been judged yet,neither has lazarus, that happens at the end of the milennium....

Where do you get the scripture that humans are eternal beings?If that's the case,why is eternal life a gift?

Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

And why must we put on immortality,if we already are?

I Corinthians 15:53 "For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality."

Through this entire chapter Paul has brought to our attention that we have two bodies within each of us. We have our physical body, which is made up of flesh and blood, and we have our spiritual body which is called our soul. The flesh body will die at some point in time and the spiritual body or soul body that houses or spirit will live on after death. "Mortal must put on immortality" applies only to the soul, for all flesh will be gone at death, or at the sounding of the seventh trumpet. So immortality applies only to the soul body, and even in the incorruptible body the sting of death of that soul is still on it if that soul has not received eternal life.

Matthew 10:28 "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear Him Which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

Man can kill your body but no man, not even Satan can kill your soul. To "destroy" is to cause you "to perish" or "cease to exist". It is only God that can judge your soul to hell fire and that comes after the judgment day. "Mortal" means "liable to die", and whether your soul dies or not is left up to God's judgment.

 

[JLB]

The Richman has not been judged yet,neither has lazarus, that happens at the end of the milennium....

Where do you get the scripture that humans are eternal beings?If that's the case,why is eternal life a gift?

The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. Revelation 20:10

Both angelic beings and human beings together will suffer the same fate of being tormented forever and ever.

I Corinthians 15:53 "For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality."

Through this entire chapter Paul has brought to our attention that we have two bodies within each of us. We have our physical body, which is made up of flesh and blood, and we have our spiritual body which is called our soul. The flesh body will die at some point in time and the spiritual body or soul body that houses or spirit will live on after death. "Mortal must put on immortality" applies only to the soul, for all flesh will be gone at death, or at the sounding of the seventh trumpet. So immortality applies only to the soul body, and even in the incorruptible body the sting of death of that soul is still on it if that soul has not received eternal life.

Which body has died and will be resurrected from the dead, whereby it will be clothed with immortality, the physical body or the spiritual body?


16 For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen. 17 And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins! 18 Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. 19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable. 20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming.
1 Corinthians 15:16-23

It's the physical body that must put on immortality.



JLB

 

[TimothyW]

Its exactly what scripture teaches,let's read what Paul says

I Corinthians 15:35 "But some man will say, "How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?"

I Corinthians 15:36 "Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:"

It is important to understand the word "quickened", Remember in verse 22 Paul stated; "in Adam all die, so in Christ shall all be made alive." This Greek word for "quickened" is the same Greek word for the "coming alive". It means that all, sinners and saints are made alive through Christ. It doesn't mean that the soul is raised to eternal life, for the soul is not the subject here, but the question is what happens to the physical body?
It means to "revitalize" [# 2227 in Strong's] the soul, and become conscience and ready for judgment. This doesn't mean that all souls are saved, but that all souls are given life to continue as they were. If that soul was lost, it will still be lost, but the final death will not take place until after this age of the flesh is over, after the Millennium age, and the Great white throne judgment is finish. Then will be the time of the "second death" or the death of the lost souls. It means that the soul has put off the flesh body, and put on their spiritual body, but their soul is still condemned to death if it is not in right standing with God.

I Corinthians 15:44 "It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body."

There is a natural body, which is your flesh body, and there is also a spiritual or soul body. The two are different and when the natural body, or flesh body dies the spiritual body is "raised", or in the Greek text "egiro, awakened, become active from its death". You have two bodies, one natural body contains your spiritual body, and that spiritual body is awakened to a new life, when the flesh or natural body dies and releases your soul. Your spirit and your soul are together, for the spirit is your "self", "the intellect of your soul" which houses your spirit within you.

It just can't be made any clearer than Paul has made it here. You have two bodies, the flesh and the spiritual bodies. When the flesh body dies, then the spiritual body is awakened and come alive within itself. It starts to live a life without the baggage of the flesh body confining it to the limits of the flesh.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 "Then [at death] shall the dust [flesh body] return to the earth as it was: and the spirit [spiritual body] shall return [instantly] to God [Father] Who gave it."

Ecclesiastes 9:5 "For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten."

This is written by Solomon to the flesh man that walks under the sun, and when the life of the flesh is over, it has no more knowledge or thought than a stick or rock. It is useless, but the soul that is within it is gone and with the Father.

Sorry, Paul does not say that we have two bodies. Paul is not claiming that our bodies are not resurrected to life. Paul said that if the dead are not raised, then Jesus Christ also was not raised from death, and our faith is in vain. (1 Cor 15:12-28)
Ecclesiastes 12:7 says nothing about a "spirit body" going to God. And Ecclesiastes 9:5 certainly does not prove that the dead are alive in heaven, it says the opposite of that.

I'm sorry, but actual resurrection is necessary for eternal life.
Do you accept that Jesus Christ was physically resurrected, or was he resurrected in spirit only? Jesus Christ's resurrection is called the firstfruit of the resurrection. His resurrection is an example of the resurrection from death that we are promised in Scripture. Scripture doesn't promise that we can live forever as spirits or ghosts. Scripture promises that we can be resurrected and have actual eternal life.

 

[FreeGrace]

Can't be different,if you exist you have life,might not be a good one but you still have it......

There cannot be any "life" in the second DEATH. There will be death. Conscious separation from God. Forever.

 

[TimothyW]

There cannot be any "life" in the second DEATH. There will be death. Conscious separation from God. Forever.

Conscious Death???

 

[gr8grace3]

Conscious Death???

Col 2:13~~When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,

Eph 2:1~~And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,

Were you conscious before He made you alive?

 

[FreeGrace]

Conscious Death???

Sure. Eternal separation from God is a conscious experience. But nowhere in Scripture do we read about any being described as "alive" in the "second death", which is the LoF.

The point is: they do not have eternal life, which is God's life. Which He gives to those who have believed in His Son (Jn 6:40). Since those who have not believed in Christ for eternal life do not have eternal life, all they have left is eternal death. But they will be conscious, because Jesus describes the LoF as "everlasting fire" in Matt 25:41 and John describes the LoF as being "torment for ever and ever" in Rev 20:10.

 

[chessman]

The point is: they do not have eternal life, which is God's life.

Eternal Life = God's life I agree. Only God is Eternal (aionion in the Greek) and can thus give Eternal Life. So 'God's Life' is a very fitting description indeed. But it's the same Greek word that the KJV translates "everlasting" in Matt 25:41 for some unknown reason (though I suspect I know why) yet all the other modern translations stay consistent with their translation in the other 67 times it appears in the NT and translate it Eternal.

because Jesus describes the LoF as "everlasting fire" in Matt 25:41

Not technically, no He doesn't. Jesus never used the term "Lake of Fire". John (the only one to ever use the term LoF) does in his visionary description. More on Rev 20:10-11 below but my point here about Matt 25:41 is that Jesus says aionion fire belongs to the accursed ones that are ordered to "depart from me" post Judgment. aionion fire = Eternal Fire = God's Fire of final judgment upon the accursed.

Let's be consistent. Eternal Fire = God's Fire (remember aionion is an adjective modifying fire. In this case describing God's Fire as a Eternal Fire)

Isaiah 33:14
Sinners are afraid in Zion; trembling has seized the godless: “Who of us can live with devouring fire? Who of us can live with everlasting consuming hearths?”
Matthew 10:28(LEB)...
be afraid of the one who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Hebrews 12:29
For indeed our God is a consuming fire.​

John describes the LoF as being "torment for ever and ever" in Rev 20:10.

True. But torment for who/what?

Revelation 20:10-11(LEB)
10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulphur, where the beast and the false prophet also are, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
The Judgment at the Great White Throne
11 And I saw a great white throne and the one who was seated on it, ...​

Notice that within John's vision The Devil, The Beast and The False Prophets (specifically said to be multi-headed demon spirits with frogs coming out of their mouths (Rev 16:3), are the "they" that are cast into the LoF to remain there alive forever in torment prior to the GWTJ. My point is that there's zero evidence that The Beast or The False Prophet are visioned by John as representative of the lost/accursed humans that Jesus speaks of in Matt 25:41. It's logically precluded from a possibility if you actually think the Biblical evidence through. All lost people are to stand and be subject to the GWTJ, yet John's vision has The Beast and The False Prophet missing out on the GWTJ since they are previous sent to the LoF with the Devil.

“Who of us can live with devouring fire? Good question. Evidently humans cannot live through it but The Devil and his angels can. John (when talking about the lost humans getting sent there) calls it The Second Death (not eternal conscious torment). I think John knew that God's fire is a consuming fire!

 

[FreeGrace]

Not technically, no He doesn't. Jesus never used the term "Lake of Fire".

Correct. He said "everlasting fire". John calls it the LoF.

John (the only one to ever use the term LoF) does in his visionary description. More on Rev 20:10-11 below but my point here about Matt 25:41 is that Jesus says aionion fire belongs to the accursed ones that are ordered to "depart from me" post Judgment. aionion fire = Eternal Fire = God's Fire of final judgment upon the accursed.

Yes, It's God's fire, all right.

True. But torment for who/what?

Revelation 20:10-11(LEB)
10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulphur, where the beast and the false prophet also are, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
The Judgment at the Great White Throne
11 And I saw a great white throne and the one who was seated on it, ...​

Notice that within John's vision The Devil, The Beast and The False Prophets (specifically said to be multi-headed demon spirits with frogs coming out of their mouths (Rev 16:3), are the "they" that are cast into the LoF to remain there alive forever in torment prior to the GWTJ.

The Bible didn't say that "remain there alive". The clear message is that they will remain there "for ever and ever". They were cast alive into the LoF. Meaning: they didn't experience physical death. They were thrown from this earth directly into the LoF. Do you think their bodies will survive in the LoF? Of course not. But their souls, separated from God, or spiritually dead, will be tormented for ever and ever.

My point is that there's zero evidence that The Beast or The False Prophet are visioned by John as representative of the lost/accursed humans that Jesus speaks of in Matt 25:41.

No, they aren't representative of the lost humans. They are just the first 2 "customers" to experience the LoF. All the rest of the unsaved will be cast in per Rev 20:15.

It's logically precluded from a possibility if you actually think the Biblical evidence through. All lost people are to stand and be subject to the GWTJ, yet John's vision has The Beast and The False Prophet missing out on the GWTJ since they are previous sent to the LoF with the Devil.

I'm not sure what you point is here. Yes, the antichrist and false prophet miss the GWT judgment.

“Who of us can live with devouring fire? Good question. Evidently humans cannot live through it but The Devil and his angels can.

I need the verse citation before I can comment on this. Where does this question occur in Scripture? I doubt it refers to the LoF.

John (when talking about the lost humans getting sent there) calls it The Second Death (not eternal conscious torment). I think John knew that God's fire is a consuming fire!

Let's see some verses and see how they link.

And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. Rev 20:10 NASB

And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. Rev 20:15 NASB

Do you see any difference between the LoF in v.10 vs v.15?

 

[chessman]

They are just the first 2 "customers" to experience the LoF. All the rest of the unsaved will be cast in per Rev 20:15.


I'm not sure what you point is here. Yes, the antichrist and false prophet miss the GWT judgment.

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ;...
​

Since neither The Beast nor The False Prophet appear before the Judgment seat then they must not be one of the "all" Paul spoke of. Which I take to mean all humanity (not just the Corinthians) must appear. Therefore these two are not humans but demons. Which is what the LoF was prepared for. The Devil and his angels.

I need the verse citation before I can comment on this. Where does this question occur in Scripture? I doubt it refers to the LoF.

Isaiah 33:14 (LEB)
Sinners are afraid in Zion; trembling has seized the godless: “Who of us can live with devouring fire? Who of us can live with everlasting consuming hearths?”​

Do you see any difference between the LoF in v.10 vs v.15?

Only that it was prepared specifically for The Devil and his angels (demons) yet that when John refers to all the lost/resurrected humans that get sent there, he then says it's their Second Death.

 

[n2thelight]

The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. Revelation 20:10

Both angelic beings and human beings together will suffer the same fate of being tormented forever and ever.





Which body has died and will be resurrected from the dead, whereby it will be clothed with immortality, the physical body or the spiritual body?


16 For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen. 17 And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins! 18 Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. 19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable. 20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming.
1 Corinthians 15:16-23

It's the physical body that must put on immortality.



JLB

I guess that's where our differences lay,I don't believe scripture teaches the flesh will be risen....The flesh returns to dust.....It's the soul that must put on immortality...The first death is the death of the flesh,which will never be again,the 2nd death is the death of the soul,which also shall never be again.....We rise at death

I Corinthians 15:13 "But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:"

In other words, you are saying; "if all of the dead are not risen, then Christ must not be risen also." This is the exact subject that Paul was addressing in I Thessalonians 4 where Paul is addressing the question, "Where are the dead?" The Thessalonian Christians were starting to lose their faith over the belief that when they died, their souls would remain in the ground. and Paul was saying that this line of thinking was as the heathen thought.

I Thessalonians 4:13 "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope."

The concern is over "them which are asleep". The concern is over the loved ones that have died and left them and their bodies have been placed in a hole in the ground. The heathen fears come from the fact that they do not know what happen to the soul after death, for they have no hope after death. Those that sleep [are dead physically] are not out there in a hole in the ground, but all Christians must believe that they arose to be with the Father, just like Christ did also. All the dead are with God; all of them. "To be absent from the [flesh] body is to be present with the Lord." Ecclesiastes 12:7

I Thessalonians 4:14 "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him."

The subject again is "that ye not be ignorant as to where the dead are". If you are a Christian, you know and believe that Jesus Christ died, was buried, and on the third day arose and came out of the tomb alive. If you do not believe this, Paul classifies you as ignorant, and heathen [non-believers]. When Christ ascended back to the Father on the fortieth day after His resurrection, all the souls went with him into heaven that had passed on. Some of those souls went to wait for that time of judgment, while others went to the glory of God. However there are no souls that remain with their decaying flesh body in the ground, none.

I Thessalonians 4:15 "For we say unto you, by the word of our Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent in no wise [precede] them which are asleep."

Paul is addressing "we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord," as those who are still alive and living in their flesh bodies from then to the time when Jesus Comes back at the seventh and last trumpet.

Those still in their flesh will be changed to be like those who have already changed at death...Those that Christ brings with Him when He returns are not coming to be reunited with their flesh,they are already in the only body they shall ever need........

The flesh returns back to dust never ever to be used again!!!!!

Show me one verse where it states the soul reunites with the flesh