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Can Eternal Life exist in the Second Death?

Still you have not answered, using a scripture, my original question.

You just keep saying that I don't understand, or I wrongly assume...

What causes these, who are cast into the lake of fire, to continue to exist forever and ever, if it is not eternal life?


The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.


If you can't give an explanation, with scripture, as to why these who have been cast into the lake of fire continue to exist apart from eternal life, then just say like Chessman, I don't know.


Eternal beings, are eternal, because God has granted to them to be eternal.


Angels are called sons of God.

Some angels, lost their place with God, and were cast down to hell.


Sons of God were cast into hell.


Sons of God will be cast into the lake of fire, as well.


They will continue to exist there, forever, being tormented day and night with no rest.


JLB

Matt 25:46~~"These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Acts 24:15~~having a hope in God, which these men cherish themselves, that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

John 3:36~~"He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

The wrath and Judgement of God sustains them in their God given resurrection existence of spiritual DEATH.
 
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Matt 25:46~~"These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Acts 24:15~~having a hope in God, which these men cherish themselves, that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

John 3:36~~"He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

The wrath and Judgement of God sustains them in their God given resurrection existence of spiritual DEATH.


Thats a whole lot better than "nothing" sustains them as they are dead.


God given resurrection existence of spiritual DEATH...


Thanks for your answer, I think you gave it some thought, and maybe some prayer.

Thanks for the scriptures you used.



Eternal death.

Makes sense!


JLB
 
An eternal being does not cease to exist.

They are in a state of torment, which of course means they are aware of this torment and have no rest from this torment.


JLB


Where do you get the idea that we are eternal beings,ie,immortal?....If we were,why must it be given to us?
 
And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: (Genesis 3:4)

Satan lied when he informed Eve that she would live forever, "Ye shall not surely die." Mankind has accepted that lie as truth ever since. Mainstream Christian theologians have incorporated the lie into their theologies for nearly two thousand years!

According to John 3:16, the Bible actually teaches that only those believing in Jesus will have eternal life. It is not something all men are born with! Likewise, John 3:16 actually teaches that those who do not believe in Jesus will perish, not suffer for eternity in hell!
 
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Where do you get the idea that we are eternal beings,ie,immortal?....If we were,why must it be given to us?


16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, "Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."
Genesis 2:16-17

Only in disobeying God would Adam have the ability to die.

Even after physical death, we see that neither the rich man nor Lazarus cease to exist.

Even in the lake of fire, those who are cast there continue to exist.

You used the phrase "immortal", not me.

I see spirit beings existing forever with God, or in the everlasting fires of hell.

There is eternal life, or eternal damnation.


JLB
 
FreeGrace:There is nothing in those passages that supports the idea that there will be "life" in the second DEATH.

There is a death of the physical body (righteous/unrighteous) that turns back to dust into the ground from whence it came. There is another death that is Spiritual death, which is sin that separates us from God, Genesis 2:17. If you want to ignore 1Cor 15:55, 56 then that is your choice.

I exists (have life) and have an existence in all tribulations and trials that face me here on earth, but yet I live because I am dead from sin as my life is hid with Christ and my spirit sealed by Gods Spirit until the day of redemption.

Can you explain these verses below:
Colossians 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Rom 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

FreeGrace: Those in the LoF will exist in spiritual death. No life.

Spiritual death is and always will be that of separation from God. IE: here on earth or the lake of fire. Just as Adam spiritually died that day he ate of the tree it was sin that caused the death to be found in him, but yet he lived.

FreeGrace: No, Scripture does not equate sin and death. We know that sin results in death. But they are not the same.

The sting of death is sin. I see that the two would not exist without the other so yes, they do equate with each other as it is spiritual death. It is sin which causes spiritual death that is thrown into the lake of fire along with the grave (hell) after the unrighteous are resurrected to stand in judgement and then they are cast into the lake of fire after death and hell have already been cast into, Rev 20:13-15.

Can you explain the word dead in Rev 20:5 as it says the rest of the dead, as in being those who will stand in Gods great white throne judgment, Rev 20:11-15, lived not again until they were resurrected, judged and cast into the lake of fire. (Emphasis on lived not again until) The until shows they are very much alive in the lake of fire, but yet like we who will be with Christ have no actual proof of what we will look like.

So you think we will have physical bodies in the New Jerusalem. Can you give me scripture for this as maybe I have missed it. Does not a physical body have flesh and blood? Scripture says flesh and blood has no part of the inheritance.

You are right about one thing that saying in part there is no life in the lake of fire, but yet one has to have life in order to exisit and it is in no comparision with eternal life with the Father.

Like I said it's another topic about Jesus taking the sin away so I will not get into that as it is not relevant to the OP, but feel free to start a new thread on that.
 
I see spirit beings existing forever with God, or in the everlasting fires of hell.

There is eternal life, or eternal damnation.
Right. And eternal damnation is NOT life. It is an existence, but is death. Eternal death. Eternal separation from God.
 
Can you explain these verses below:
Colossians 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
Dead to sin (Christ took my sins away) and my life is in God, meaning I have eternal life. That's what Paul was telling the Colossian believers.

Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Rom 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
This is clear wording that there is nothing that can or will (future) separate those who have believed in Christ from God. iow, OSAS.

Spiritual death is and always will be that of separation from God. IE: here on earth or the lake of fire. Just as Adam spiritually died that day he ate of the tree it was sin that caused the death to be found in him, but yet he lived.
Correct.

The sting of death is sin. I see that the two would not exist without the other so yes, they do equate with each other as it is spiritual death
No, they do NOT equate. They are not the same nor "equal". Sin does bring death, but death does not bring sin.

Can you explain the word dead in Rev 20:5 as it says the rest of the dead, as in being those who will stand in Gods great white throne judgment, Rev 20:11-15, lived not again until they were resurrected, judged and cast into the lake of fire. (Emphasis on lived not again until) The until shows they are very much alive in the lake of fire, but yet like we who will be with Christ have no actual proof of what we will look like.
The context is the first resurrection, where all believers receive their resurrection bodies (v.4). All unbelievers' bodies will stay in the ground throughout the Millennium, and then be resurrected to face the GWT judgment. And, yes, they will be thrown into the LoF. And no, the unit does not show that they will be alive IN the LoF. Just that they will be cast into the LoF. They will be conscious, obviously. But they do not have eternal life. Which is the point of the OP.

[QUOTE3]So you think we will have physical bodies in the New Jerusalem. Can you give me scripture for this as maybe I have missed it.[/QUOTE]
1 Cor 15:35-49. Why do you think believers in the NJ won't have physical bodies????

Does not a physical body have flesh and blood? Scripture says flesh and blood has no part of the inheritance.
Agreed. Why do you ask? This seems irrelevant to the discussion.

You are right about one thing that saying in part there is no life in the lake of fire, but yet one has to have life in order to exisit and it is in no comparision with eternal life with the Father.
No, life is not necessary to "exist". A dead body exists in the grave. Not alive at all.

Like I said it's another topic about Jesus taking the sin away so I will not get into that as it is not relevant to the OP, but feel free to start a new thread on that.
I don't need to. I have no problem with the fact that He did take all sin away from all people. If you disagree and want to discuss is, go ahead and start a thread.
 
16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, "Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."
Genesis 2:16-17

Only in disobeying God would Adam have the ability to die.

Even after physical death, we see that neither the rich man nor Lazarus cease to exist.

Even in the lake of fire, those who are cast there continue to exist.

You used the phrase "immortal", not me.

I see spirit beings existing forever with God, or in the everlasting fires of hell.

There is eternal life, or eternal damnation.


JLB


Richman nor Lazarus did'nt cease to exist for the fact,it was'nt time,ie,lake of fire...Noone has at this time has ceased to exist,satan is the only one by name who has been sentenced already,and even he will cease to exist

Ezekiel 28:18"
Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee."

Ezekiel 28:19

"All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more."
Yes I did use the term immortal,and you did'nt answer the question,why must we be given immortality,if we already are?

I Corinthians 15:53 "For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality."

How can one continue to live in the lake of fire when scripture clearly states that it is the 2nd death?

You can't have life and death at the same time......
 
Richman nor Lazarus did'nt cease to exist for the fact,it was'nt time,ie,lake of fire...Noone has at this time has ceased to exist,satan is the only one by name who has been sentenced already,and even he will cease to exist
What Scripture leads one to that conclusion, that even satan will "cease to exist"? And how come his 2 best followers will receive this sentence, along with satan: And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. Rev 20:10

You can't have life and death at the same time......
Eternal life is being with God. Eternal death is being separated from God. The point of this thread is that those who have been given eternal life through faith in Christ cannot ever be cast into the LoF. Some believers are confused and believe that one can lose their salvation, or some form of that idea.

But that has to ignore the obvious implications of those who possess eternal life. Eternal like CANNOT exist in the second DEATH, which is eternal.
 
FreeGrace,

1Cor 15:35-49 speaks of a physical earthly body while we are here on earth then we are raised with a spiritual body just as Christ has, but nowhere in these scriptures does it describe what the spiritual body will look like.

Again, if one is conscious of their surroundings in the lake of fire then there has to be some form of life in them that makes them aware, but yet just as our life is eternal with the Father, their eternity in the lake of fire is also eternal and if they do not have some form of life (not like we have right now on earth) then how can they be conscious of their surroundings.
 
FreeGrace,

1Cor 15:35-49 speaks of a physical earthly body while we are here on earth then we are raised with a spiritual body just as Christ has, but nowhere in these scriptures does it describe what the spiritual body will look like.
I didn't say it did.

Again, if one is conscious of their surroundings in the lake of fire then there has to be some form of life in them that makes them aware, but yet just as our life is eternal with the Father, their eternity in the lake of fire is also eternal and if they do not have some form of life (not like we have right now on earth) then how can they be conscious of their surroundings.
When one supposes or assumes that a conscious existence equals "life" then one must deal with a "life" existing in eternal death. Rather contradictory, imho.

Scripture nowhere describes existence apart from God as "life" in any way, shape or form.
 
I didn't say it did.


When one supposes or assumes that a conscious existence equals "life" then one must deal with a "life" existing in eternal death. Rather contradictory, imho.

Scripture nowhere describes existence apart from God as "life" in any way, shape or form.

FreeGrace said: 1 Cor 15:35-49. Why do you think believers in the NJ won't have physical bodies????.............so yes you did say it.

I assumed by this statement you believe we will have physical bodies in the New Jerusalem and then you gave 1 Cor 15:35-49 to back up that we will, but I see nowhere in those scriptures that say we will have physical bodies, but only spiritual bodies. A physical body is made of flesh and blood and scripture says that flesh and blood has no inheritance.

Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

According to this verse those cast into the lake of fire will have life as it says they will live again. If one is conscious of their surroundings then they have to have life.
 
FreeGrace said: 1 Cor 15:35-49. Why do you think believers in the NJ won't have physical bodies????.............so yes you did say it.
Please review post #172. I have no idea at this point what you are claiming I said then didn't say. Please sort it all out.

I assumed by this statement you believe we will have physical bodies in the New Jerusalem and then you gave 1 Cor 15:35-49 to back up that we will, but I see nowhere in those scriptures that say we will have physical bodies, but only spiritual bodies. A physical body is made of flesh and blood and scripture says that flesh and blood has no inheritance.
How does a "spiritual body" eat from the Tree of Life in the NJ? Ever ponder that?

Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

According to this verse those cast into the lake of fire will have life as it says they will live again. If one is conscious of their surroundings then they have to have life.
It isn't eternal life. Which is the point of this thread. Eternal life is God's life, and He gives this gift to believers only. No one else.
 
Freegrace said -

How does a "spiritual body" eat from the Tree of Life in the NJ? Ever ponder that?


We will have bodies like Jesus.

They will never die.

They can appear in physical dwellings from beyond them.

The can eat.


They will shine like the sun.

They are compatible with both heaven and earth.


JLB
 
Please review post #172. I have no idea at this point what you are claiming I said then didn't say. Please sort it all out.


How does a "spiritual body" eat from the Tree of Life in the NJ? Ever ponder that?


It isn't eternal life. Which is the point of this thread. Eternal life is God's life, and He gives this gift to believers only. No one else.

Philippians 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

1John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Nowhere in scripture, that I know of, says we will have physical bodies as it says, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be. We might or might not, but yet there is no importance to what we will be other than we will have eternal life with the Father who gives it. In the lake of fire would be the same as no one knows what those people will look like, but do have an eternal existence that is conscious of their surroundings and see and feel that of their torments. If they can see and feel the pain of their torment then they have to have a form of life, not like the eternal life God gives the righteous, but some form of life in order to be conscious and feel pain that will be eternal. There is no comparison with eternal life that God gives the righteous and eternal life of torment in the lake of fire. The difference is that one will be in the glory of the Lord and the other in torment with Satan, the beast and the false prophets who are tormented day and night for eternity.
 
We will have bodies like Jesus.

They will never die.

They can appear in physical dwellings from beyond them.

The can eat.


They will shine like the sun.

They are compatible with both heaven and earth.


JLB
No argument.
 
Philippians 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

1John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Nowhere in scripture, that I know of, says we will have physical bodies as it says, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be.
Scripture does tell us that we will be "like Him". Obviously referring to Jesus' resurrection body which over 500 people saw at the same time, per 1 Cor 15.

The difference is that one will be in the glory of the Lord and the other in torment with Satan, the beast and the false prophets who are tormented day and night for eternity.
And those in eternal torment will not be alive. They will be eternally dead, eternally separated from God.
 
Nowhere in scripture, that I know of, says we will have physical bodies as it says...,
In 1 Corinthians Paul writes about how we will all be given resurrection bodies just like the one Jesus had.

And Jesus certainly had a "physical" body after his resurrection - he had arms, legs, etc. He ate and walked around. Yes, His body had new properties but it certainly was physical in the sense that we normally ascribe to that term.

Are you familiar with the Apostle's Creed" Here is one version; note the material that I have rendered in bold:

I believe in God, the Father Almighty,
Maker of heaven and earth.
And in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord,
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,
born of the virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died and was buried.
He descended into hell.
On the third day He rose again from the dead.
He ascended into heaven
and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty.
From thence He will come to judge the living and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy Christian Church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting. Amen.[31]
Do you require more Biblical evidence that the redeemed will ultimately be given resurrection bodies?
 
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